A great many believers in the Christian mythologies wish to ignore entirely what their mythologies actually say and what their mythologies actually teach. They like to pretend that all the Christians which came before them which visited untold inhuman atrocities upon the innocent did so without any Biblical motivation; that they did so without official sanction from their gods, and that they were all "not TRUE Christians."

The truth is that the Christian mythologies can be -- and have been -- used by extremist Christians to "justify" and otherwise explain-away any horrible action, misdeed, or dangerous ideology humans can do or dream up. It works because the Christian mythologies do grant all the justification needed -- provided one believe the mythologies are the words of gods: Then anything -- and I mean anything -- can and does get "justified."

Instead of reworking the mythologies for the 1990's to be even a little more ethical and moral, the believers in the mythologies would rather have people "not dwell" upon the atrocities found within and look instead for anything positive which might be found.

I've always argued that there is no baby in all the Christian bathwater. I'm willing to go so far as to admit that maybe there was once a baby in Christianity but that the Christianity of today has drowned it to death, resulting in the type of Christianity we're left with today. Any honest Christians left are soiled, it seems, by association with their ideological colleagues' extremist behavior and beliefs.

As someone once pointed out, "few can see the Christ through all the Satan that drips from the mouthes of Christians." The Satan that drips from the mouthes of Christians comes straight from the Christian bible: the book which Christians like to pretend contains words from their gods.

Wed 26 Nov 97 17:32

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
but this is due to the fact that the Church, while dedicated to serving God, is comprised of men and women who are not themselves perfect.

Richard Smith:
So that makes it okay? We should overlook Hitler's atrocities just because the Germans were imperfect?

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
No, it certainly does not make it O.K., nor was I trying to say that it was. It saddens me also that so much harm has been done to others in God's name. My point was that the actions of men and women acting in evil ways does not reflect on the Gospel accounts of Christ and His message for ALL people.

Richard Smith:
They certainly do, if they are part of a text that openly extorts those actions. From blessing those who would dash out the brains of children on rocks to ordering that witches should not be allowed to live, the OT is rife with atrocities, the preponderance of which are either endorsed by YHVH or ordered by YHVH. (And since your faith loudly proclaims that Christ IS YHVH, your problem is manifold.)

Christ's alleged message (I say alleged because we have no real evidence that such a figure existed, nor do we have any direct words of such a person, only hearsay) itself has indications of violence and what you are calling `evil actions' . . . the cursing and death of the fig tree, for instance, or his parable for what one should do to those who don't believe in him (Luke 19:27), his deliberate speaking in parables so that some would NOT be saved (Mark 4:11-12), the horrible end for Ananias and his wife at the hands of YHVH through Peter (merely for the financial gain of the disciples), Christ's alleged references to bringing a sword, and all that implies, etc.

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
What evil actions do reflect are the evil hearts of men; on the inclination of men to behave in ways that are contrary to God's commandments.

Richard Smith:
If your sacred text proclaims and endorses death, genocide, slavery, rape, torture, etc., as we have seen that it does, and the followers of it believe in it and emulate it or take it's words as divine instruction (what else can they do, if they are told that they are the very words of your alleged Deity?), then the evil actions that arise as a result of that ARE reflections of the teachings and the alleged Deity that would make such endorsements.

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
That we, and I include myself as well, choose to disobey what Christ has taught us and still expects of us is very sad indeed.

Richard Smith:
The Bible teaches atrocities. Those that heed it and live by it's word and code exhibit the type of behavior we're decrying here . . . for example, say that witches should not live, and we get a few hundred years of witch burnings.

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
But in sinning, we must make amends.

Richard Smith:
That would be nice. When are you going to return the US to the Native Americans?

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
The Church has been attempting to address its past failings.

Richard Smith:
I have seen little more than rhetoric.

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
Public apologies have been issued,

Richard Smith:
I have only heard of one, that being for Galileo. I've yet to see any Catholic representative voice the official Church regrets to a collection of Witches, Jews, Gays, Lepers, etc., for atrocities leveled at them in the past. Perhaps you can cite some document titles and numbers and time and date . . .

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
and I assure you a great many Christians are very much ashamed of the past behaviour of others.

Richard Smith:
I would rest easier if they were ashamed of the past behavior of themselves and their Church, otherwise it still looks as if that buck is being passed . . .

You might chat with some of the resident Xtians here, btw, who refuse to admit that anything of the sort was ever done by Xtians.

As long as they deny it ever happening, there will be distrust of them here.

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
But it is also worth noting how pointless it becomes to point fingers at historical incidents.

Richard Smith:
Those who do not remember the past are condemned to relive it. -- Santayana

We disagree. The past has much to teach us.

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
In other words, I believe it is best to sift through the evil done and concentrate on the good the Church has done in the name of Christ.

Richard Smith:
In other words, whitewash that puppy until it shines.

Denial is not honesty in this case, nor will it buy yardage in the sentiments of those here, or any THINKING person. A person who wrongs me and denies doing it, while not attempting to make up for it and instead pointing out all the wonderful things he's done instead is a hypocrite, and I do not trust him.

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
Not to forget the evil done, but to put it into some sort of a perspective.

Richard Smith:
What kind of a perspective could you put on a soldier of YHVH gutting or beheading a child? Does the perspective make it okay? Aren't you just saying: "Yes, BUT, things were different, and things are different today, yadda yadda yakety smakety . . . ?"

More rhetoric. And no honesty.

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
Can you blame the Saviour

Richard Smith:
What saviour? You haven't presented any evidence of a savior. I can blame ANY person (real or imagined) for giving orders of atrocities that are later carried out by their followers. Regardless of who it is. If your Deity isn't accountable for it's actions, then it isn't honest.

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
that SOME of

Richard Smith:
. . . alleged . . .

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
His people have taken part in evil activities?

Richard Smith:
. . . at his direct command? Yup. And that's what the Bible purports to be, the direct words of YHVH/Christ.

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
If you were to engage in murder, do you blame your mother for your actions?Fr.Chris

Richard Smith:
You mean if my mother said I should not let certain people live and I was stupid enough to follow her unevidenced and inane teachings and killed a great many people, she would not be responsible? You mean that we persecuted Hitler, Stalin, Manson, et al., for no good reason? It is the same thing . . . none of them actually DID the killing themselves, they merely ordered it.

Can't have it both ways, Fahdah. If your alleged Deity is the actual author of your Bible, then it is responsible for the atrocities that pour out of it and its teachings.

>Richard Smith:
. . . which is outlined in your Bible, which itself contains many instances of rape, genocide, murder, the killing of children, lies, slavery, and many other atrocities, etc.

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
Yes, yes, yes, but also the Bible, in particular the Gospels speak of love and obligation to each other.

Richard Smith:
It's nice that sometimes they speak of love. Yet there are more words for killing in the Bible than there are for love. Actions speak louder than words . . .

Father Chris Vaillancourt:
You are isolating events out of context to the books they appear in.Fr.Chris

Richard Smith:
. . . more attempt at justification . . .

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