Here's an interesting exchange between myself, a fellow free-thinker, and a Luddite who confuses science and technology with human failing. Keep in mind that the Luddite in question is using a computer -- and seem to see no irony in the fact.

The reference to "Incubus" and "Satan's dupes" the Luddite speaks of is in reference to Richard Smith who handles any of the many questions The Skeptic Tank receives concerning Wicca or neo-Pagani -- life-affirming, nature-based religions popular in England and the United States. (Wicca is only some 60 years old whereas neo-Pagani seeks to return to a somewhat idealistic conglomeration of nature-based religions which existed long before Christianity destroyed them.)

This discussion took place on the FidoNet HolySmoke echo. Sadly, the hurtful truth seems to be a bit too embarrassing for him so he elected not to continue trying to defend his lost position.

Fri 5 Sep 97 10:02

Fredric Rice
FR> While ignoring the facts which debunk your
FR> own pantheon, huh? <smirk> Science wins again.

David Ragland
dr> Your puerile smirks and capricious affirmations of `winning'
dr> indicates a penchant for combativeness and a total lack of any
dr> desire to learn the real truth about anything.

Fredric Rice
It's very curious how believers in the occult always want to pretend that those who repeatedly ask them for evidence to back up their beliefs are experiencing "a total lack of any desire to learn the real truth."

All you have to do is produce evidence that your deity constructs exists, David. All you have to do is show the world that the history of the Christian cult is some how entirely inaccurate and some kind of hoax.

That'll stop us hurtful heathens up quite effectively, you know.

David Ragland
dr> Hell, who knows what you have on your mind to prove? You
dr> contradict your own alleged mission statement of the Skeptic
dr> Tank with the use of satan's dupe(s).

Fredric Rice
<laughing!> There's a really bizarre occult claim. Do you have any evidence that there's a "Satan" leave alone that it has "dupes?"

I keep asking you questions. Why doesn't Vyger answer?

David Ragland
dr> Do you have any idea what you really stand for?

Fredric Rice
I sure do. Would you like a quick summation?

David Ragland
dr> Why do you obsess so?

Fredric Rice
I could well imagine why you feel that working to end deadly superstitious ignorance is an "obsession." Having a long history of suffering from religion yourself, I don't doubt you feel any education is "obsessive."

David Ragland
dr> Have you lost sight of what these conversations are meant to do?

Fredric Rice
No, we have been debunking fundy occult claims for six years now. And -- god willing -- we'll continue to do so until fundy religion is dead.

David Ragland
dr> Exchange ideas, Fred. Nothing more.

Fredric Rice
When you pretend to include your intellectual and moral superiors in with your occult delusions, you must provide evidence to back up your "exchange of ideas," David.

You may begin at any time. <smirk>

David Ragland
dr> Believing that anyone ever wins the debate of God's existence
dr> on the basis of what man's science has unearthed is ludicrous.

Fredric Rice
The mere fact that the origins of deity constructs are well known, coupled to the fact that there is no evidence for any of the countless gods and goddesses, is all that's needed to debunk entirely such claims.

Science won this debate some 1460 years ago when scientific method started to evolve into a successful methodology. People like you got left behind, that's all.

David Ragland
dr> Science wins what?

Fredric Rice
Absolutely everything. You have a problem with polio? Salk used science to find a cure. You have a problem with feeding a large populace and providing potable waters to a growing populace? Science finds the answer.

Science always wins, David. Always.

David Ragland
dr> Who awarded the prize?

Fredric Rice
Every scientist who has ever made a contribution to the collective knowledge awards the fruits of his and her work to most (if not eventually all) of humanity.

David Ragland
dr> Where and when was the contest held?

Fredric Rice
It's held in every laboratory, university, class room, and industry in the world.

David Ragland
dr> I missed it, Fred.

Fredric Rice
You were in church at the time.

David Ragland
dr> What were the rules?

Fredric Rice
Would you like a lesson on what constitutes scientific method? Is that what you're asking? Or is your question rhetorical so that you may ignore the hurtful truth?

David Ragland
dr> Since when am I in a battle with science because of my belief in God?

Fredric Rice
Science has already won. From archaeology to zoology, science has already put "paid" to the unevidenced notion of gods, goddesses, vampires and werewolves.

David Ragland
dr> Our views on scientific findings may
dr> differ, but I highly regard it nevertheless.

Fredric Rice
You discard science when it proves your religious occultism mistaken.

Science wins again.

David Ragland
dr> You speak as if you worship science

Fredric Rice
I can well imagine that a cultist would try to convince himself of that notion to avoid an uncomfortable truth about his own religion.

David Ragland
dr> and rail so against what you refer to
dr> as hocus pocus (religion) yet. . . Behold!

Fredric Rice
<laughing!> I can see that my web pages have upset you, David. Perhaps they will make you start thinking for yourself again.

    > Richard Smith handles all questions and concerns
    > about Wicca and Pagani.  Wicca and Pagani are life-affirming
    > religions which have nothing to do with the Christian gods
    > and goddesses.  Regardless of this undeniable fact, many
    > fundamentalists are programmed to believe that Wiccans and
    > Pagans are "Satanists."  Richard Smith can help provide
    > information about the origins of Wicca and Neo-Pagani as
    > well as help debunk the myths that fundamentalist Christians
    > like to perpetuate about life-affirming religions.

David Ragland
dr> Life affirming religions?

Fredric Rice
Yes indeed. As opposed to extremist Christian cults. But then I doubt you're allowed to even know what those cults' history has been just as I doubt you're allowed to know that it has been and continues to be the single most deadly cult ever created by men.

David Ragland
dr> It that was does the trick for ya, Fred? Is that the `catch
dr> phrase' that enables you to place Incubus on the staff and not
dr> be crucified by your fellow atheists?

Fredric Rice
<laughing!> Do you even know who Richard Smith is?

And do you honestly think that the "fellow atheists" in this forum fail to recognize the differences between a bloody cult like Christianity and life-affirming religions like Wicca and Pagani?

David Ragland
dr> And why would you go to such lengths?

Fredric Rice
Gee. Why did the allies put a stop to fascist Nazi aggression?

David Ragland
dr> Why would you create such a laughable shroud to half-heartedly
dr> cloak this person who believes in god(s) that are far less visible
dr> than the Christian God and then place him on your staff?

Fredric Rice
<rofl!> You can't find any evidence for your deity constructs and yet you want to pretend that those who construct archtypes and worship trees are some how less deluded than members of your own cult. That's just too cool.

David Ragland
dr> I suppose I see some amount of humor in
dr> this move, but definitely no intelligence.

Fredric Rice
I don't doubt that for an instant. You were in church at the time you should have been acquiring an education, after all.

David Ragland
dr> The answer is simple.

Fredric Rice
No doubt in keeping with the simple mind which concocted it, huh? <smirk>

David Ragland
dr> You would live with `anything', even lying to yourself, to
dr> gather what your assume is armament against the truth of Christianity.

Fredric Rice
The simple fact that the origins of the Christian cult are well known, coupled to the fact that there is no evidence for any of the Christian gods have already answered any possible questions as to the validity of the cult.

What we find, however, are people such as yourself who desperately need to learn the origins of your own cult. You're not allowed to learn. You're not allowed to understand science because you are told that it somehow detracts from your occult beliefs.

David Ragland
dr> You are wrong, however.

Fredric Rice
Science is never wrong.

David Ragland
dr> Deploying the services of pagans and new age dupes greatly
dr> pollutes your work. It makes you look like a hypocrite
dr> among things.

Fredric Rice
I don't doubt that you've been told to believe that. In actual fact what we find is that having a well-educated neo-Pagan operate as a representative of a life-affirming religion has helped people see and understand the fact that if they wish to divest themselves of the deadly Christian cult, there are alternate, more uplifting religions to choose from.

Any why wouldn't they? Knowing the evil of Christianity yet needing a belief, Pagani or Wicca provides a positive, life-affirming alternative.

David Ragland
dr> I have a question for ya, Fred.

Fredric Rice
And for some reason you're afraid to answer any of mine. I suppose that, too, is an artifact of your having acquired your educated from within the confounds of a Christian church.

David Ragland
dr> What Christian Goddesses are you referring to?

Fredric Rice
You have no idea what the origins of the Christian cult are, huh? You have doubtless wondered why Christians engage in the Fertility Festival of Isis every Easter and yet you've probably asked one of your masters to reconcile the conflict for you.

David Ragland
dr> It's a pity you consider yourself an adversary to me when
dr> it is God you are really fighting against, but cannot see it.

Fredric Rice
Since your deity constructs don't appear to exist and, as we both know so well, have known origins which are embarrassing to you, it would be pretty silly to try to pretend that I "fight against" anything but willful superstitious ignorance and slavery to men.

Oh... Unless you have evidence for your gods or goddesses?

David Ragland
dr> And this is one battle you will lose admittedly and on bended
dr> knee regardless of how often you avail yourself to trying to insult
dr> His servants and prove them wrong.

Fredric Rice
Your sweaty Alpha Male sodomite fantasies and threats have no effect upon the better educated, David. Only believers in the occult can be frightened by it.

David Ragland
dr> Peace,

Fredric Rice
Ironic, huh? Your violent threats end with the word "peace."

Science wins again.

Thu 4 Sep 97 15:23

Fredric Rice
FR><smirk> Science wins again.

David Ragland
DR>Your puerile smirks and capricious affirmations of `winning'
DR>indicates a penchant for combativeness and a total lack of any
DR>desire to learn the real truth about _anything_. Don't be such a

Karl Schneider
Wow. I'll bet your Thesaurus is still warm.

David Ragland
DR>intention of learning from conversations in here, Fred. You feel
DR>there is nothing anyone can show you. You want to dominate these
DR>inconsequential dialectics and prove. . .

Karl Schneider
Do you feel there is anything anyone can show you?

David Ragland
DR>ludicrous. Science wins what? Who awarded the prize? Where and
DR>when was the contest held? I missed it, Fred. What were the
DR>rules? Since when am I in a battle with science because of my

Karl Schneider
Science wins the debate, David. Truth awarded the prize, and the contest was held on planet Earth beginning a couple thousand years ago and came to an essential halt a few years ago. And of course you missed it; you were too busy genuflecting to your imaginary deity and your earthly masters to notice.

David Ragland
DR>belief in God? Our views on scientific findings may differ,
DR>but I highly regard it nevertheless.

Karl Schneider
Highly regard what?

David Ragland
DR>the truth of Christianity. You are wrong, however. Deploying
DR>the services of pagans and new age dupes greatly pollutes your
DR>work. It makes you look like a hypocrite among things.

Karl Schneider
Did you just learn the word 'dupe'? You seem to like it.

David Ragland
DR>fighting against, but cannot see it. And this is one battle
DR>you will lose admittedly and on bended knee regardless of how
DR>often you avail yourself to trying to insult His servants and
DR>prove them wrong.

Karl Schneider
We don't need to 'prove' anything, Raghead. All we have to do is expose their insanity.