KY> I am not God[sic],
He just puts words in his god's mouth.
KY> and thus, do not claim to have all the answers, but yes,
MO> And the function of the appendix is?
To rub in the faces of idiot Creationists (redundant).
The appendix just the tip (pardon the pun) of the vestigil iceburg. Why
do we have vestigil fingers on our feet? Why do so many human infants get
born with tail stubs? Why do we have the masoidic assembly? Why do our
nasal passages drain into our lungs? Why are our ankles so damn thin and
weak compared to our weight and height? Why are our ribs designed to
carry weight horizontally?
Evolutionary Theory has the answers: Creationists do not.
Whales with legs; snakes with legs; snakes with one atrophied lung;
embryonic gill slits in ALL land animals; the human jaw too small for the
number of teeth it holds (i.e. impacted wisdom teeth). Why would the gods
make these worthless, and often dangerous, vestigil features? Scientists
know the answer: I've yet to hear a Creationist offer any rational
explanation.
JM> On 26 May 97 16:53:20, Laurie Appleton penned the following to John
LA> (When the Sky Rained Fire, Reader's Digest, February, 1976, p.169)
JM> Perhaps this from page 780 of Asimov's Guide to Science may help:
JM> "To demonstrate that evolutionary theory was not true, they
I rather like this, as well, from p. xi, Introduction to Counting
The Eons, (c) 1981, Mercury Press:
??>> Do you think people want to take the
JS> I guess so. You all seem to believe in evolution, after all.
Also that the Earth is spherical, that electrons can be manipulated in
semiconductive materials to process information, that viscous fluids
pushing pistons have a mechanical advantage which can be used to perform
heavy work.
So you will have to immediately cease to receive any of the
benefits of all the things science has provided which are
comparable to evolution in their physical tangibility, unless
you want to live in a fairy-tale world.
It's not going to be fun sleeping naked in the dirt!
- Scientific American, January 1997:
The earliest stages in the history of life -- including its origin and the
development of the basic biochemical pathways -- are shrouded in mystery.
Michael J. Behe holds that evolutionary theory will never solve the mystery,
because some of the components are "irreducibly complex" and so
much be the product of "intelligent design" -- maybe God's (sic)
maybe not.
It is an old arguement, both arrogant and deeply unsatisfying. Theologians
as well as scientists might blanch at the notion that we owe our inner
workings to an ambiguous designer who controlled only those aspects of
evolution that Behe deems [to be] inexplicable.
Note from Fredric Rice:
Behe also doesn't understand that evolution is a directly observed
phenomena -- he mixes evolutionary theories with the fact of evolution and
ignores 99.9999% of the evidence which supports the theories his religious
beliefs wish do away.
AP> It does take blind faith, but a lot less than evolution does.
Evolution and speciation is a directly observed phenomena.
The reason why you're told not to accept the directly observed is
because by not doing so you evidence your piety to your fellow cult
members. It is an indication of committment to your cult to deny
what's obviously true for religious reasons.
When you express your piety among intellectuals, however, don't fool
yourself into pretending anyone here would believe your masters lies.
JB> Why would you believe Wickramasinghe, when he says
la> Of course I have never said that I did, did I? However
This is neat and I had to share it with people who don't bother
reading the Creationist lunatics among us.
Here we have a Creationist who was _forced_ under oath to tell the truth
and admit that Creationism is insane to believe and yet the Creationist
liars among us wish to ignore that fact and quote Wickramasinghe when he's
free from punishment for lying.
<rofl!>
Rena Mcgee:
Fredric Rice:
The Universe, taken as a whole, however, _is_ a closed system. Within
the whole of the Universe entrophy wins out yet there are uncounted
trillions of pockets of increasing order within the whole. That's
because there are uncounted trillions of stellar furnaces keeping little
pockets of complexity running.
Fundies are told that the second law of Thermodynamics some how disprove
the fact of evolution -- as if directly observed speciation could be
wished away. What they prove is that they have no idea what evolution
is, what the Second Law states, and where entrophy is a valid effect.
Well, this doesn't happen a lot, but our local newspaper (Houston
Chronicle) has decided to allow an ongoing evolution debate in it's
"letters" section. If you wish to comment on any of these
letters, you may e-mail
viewpoints@chron.com or fax to 713-220-3575.
'Boning up' on evolution, paleontology
[this is for the 'no tranitional fossils' people]
I read with dismay the letter from W.B. Robinson (viewpoints, Sept.2) that
"there just aren't any fossils showing reptiles turning into mammals.
" Apparently, Robinson knows nothing of the paleontologic records of
mammal-like reptiles. This group has as one of its members, everyone's
favorite: a sail-fin-backed reptile from the Permian period, Dimetrodon.
Throughout the Permian and Triassic periods, fossil records show a
progressive change from a sprawling stance like a crocodile or a lizard,
to a more upright, mammalian stance. At the same time, changes to the
skull structure resulted in the creation of the modern mammalian ear with
its three bones.
These changes in physiology show a progressive change over millions of
years. It can be read about in any good vertebrate paleontology book, so
Robinson's statement that evolution doesn't occur because there are no
fossils showing the transition from reptiles to mammals is false.
-Mike Edmunds, Houston
[here's one for the 'microevolution' people]
James R. Sumpter (Viewpoints, Aug. 28) committed a scientific
"no-no" with his offhanded reference to research without citing
where these analyses appear which "prove conclusively that evolution
between species is physically impossible."
I doubt there's enough space in a year's worth of Chronicles to list all
the studies and demonstrations of modern theories of interspecies
evolution, but Sumpter could start with an entry-level textbook. We can't
sit on the couch and watch evolution like we watch TV. But a TV-style
view is the only type of evidence we don't have.
Also, Sumpter doesn't seem to be aware that interspecies evolution was
widely accepted by both secular and nonsecular students of natural history
long before Charles Darwin ever published _On the Origin of Species_.
Only the mechanism was in dispute.
And now that Darwin's theories on the mechanism have been enhanced and
supported by genetics and modern knowledge of biology, chemistry, physics,
geology, geochemistry, ecology, paleontology, meteorology, cosmology, etc.,
it is only the relative importance - not the validity - of various
mechanisms which are in dispute.
Perhaps Sumpter should take some college-level classes before casually
dismissing one of the most elegant and successful theories of modern
science. -Cindy Gresham, Houston
[and here's a Christian who supports evolution]
Anyone with an open mind and enough curiosity to read a little biology
could envision that evolution through the processes of mutation,
recombinant DNA, and natural selection might be God's way of creating a
mystifying, beautiful, constantly changing universe of life forms.
The beauty of studying science involves a love of discovery. It is a
passion for pursuing the revelations that result from careful observations
and unrestrained thought. Turn your back on science and you turn you back
on a truly gratifying study of God's greatness. -Theodore Pierce, The
Woodlands
[that last one was for especially for Kochman - even your fellow Christians
(some of them) embrace science, while you reject it.] -Mark
... It's a good thing fundyism is only contagious to morons.
What follows might be somewhat offensive to the non-whites who may
read it yet keep in mind that the "Alan Presley" here is a
very young boy who is the son of a Christian priest. He is only
regurgitating what he has been told and probably shouldn't be held
entirely accountable for his racist annd badly uneducated beliefs.
Sun 14 Sep 97 16:45
Alan Presley:
There is some type of science law that is in my Chemistry book. This
is a law: A system containing many particles will not go spontaneously
from a disordered state to an ordered state.
About my evidence being wrong, not a single person in this echo could
find fault with my message on genes except one person but he said
something that was completely rediculous and no other evolutuinist stood
up for him. Here is the simplified version:
Mexicans look the same, as do Jews, Indians, English, Scotish, and any
other group like that. Why, because their genes have narrowed. They
have less genes in the gene pool then they did origonally. This can also
be seen at the continent level. Don't Asians differ from Africans who
differ from Europeans? Yes. We are losing genes. If genes were gained
then every ethnic group would look like every other one. If we are losing
them at a scale like that, the we obviously the entire human race is
losing genes. More evidence for this is imbreeding. A child of a
mexican and an englishman is more likely to be healthy and intelligent
than a child or two mexicans.
Jay Siegel:
A gene is a location on a chromosome which contains a sequence of DNA
that carries the coding for the production of a protein molecule or a
part of a protein molecule. When the gene is active protein molecules
are produced which effect the characterstics of the organisms possessing
them.
Genes have alleles. These are variations in their seqences of DNA
called codons consisting of sequences of three bases. Different alleles
of the same gene produce differences in the protein molecule coded for
by the gene in question. Human populations contain pretty much the same
number of genes and several times as many different alleles. Even
isolated populations contain pretty much the same number of genes.
Through interbreeding the number of alleles increases but not number of
genes. Through natural, sexual and cultural selection the number of
alleles is reduced. Through mutations the number of alleles is
increased. The interplay of all these processes holds the number of
alleles, not genes, in a population in a kind of equilibrium.
The numbers of genes in individuals sometimes are effected by mutations of
the chromosomes which result in a loss of chromosomal material or the
addition of chromosomal material. The results can be serious and we
know they can cause abnormalities effecting brain and body development.
Examples are dwarfism and Down's Syndrome. People with these
characteristics usually have lowered lifespans and lower fertility so
that selective processes reduce their reproductive success and hence
they have little effect on the number of genes in successor populations.
There is no evidence that the number of genes is increasing or
decreasing and there is no evidence the allele pool is increasing of
decreasing. There is a balance of competing process taking place that
seems to limit the range of possibilities and maintain the maximum
number of possibilities within that range. The more limited range of
alleles within an inbreeding population is maintained mainly by cultural
and sexual selection. These are human constructs and change as people's
behavior changes as their cultures change and they never stop changing.
The Scots aren't looking more identical now than they did 100 years ago.
The same goes for the Mexicans (who have benefited from a combination of
alleles from at least two diverse interebreeding populations, Spanish
and Native Indian), and any other designated ethnic of racial group you
can mention. They may be showing more diversity now than they did
then. These populations are not really reproductively isolated.
Alan Presley:
Jay Siegel:
Anonymous Creationist Liar:
APES UP FROM?, DONALD JOHANSON, "At any rate, modern gorillas,
orangs and chimpanzees spring out of nowhere, as it were. They
are here today; they have no yesterday...., LUCY, p.363
blanche@netaxs.com
He contents himself with the observation that dryopithecids are primitive
apes with certain things in common, things that they do not have in common
with a second group of Miocene apes that he has also succeeded in sorting
out and lumping together: the ramapithecids, named after the aforementioned
Ramapithecus.
What is the distinction? It is a simple but overwhelmingly important
one. With the exception of their premolars, which are apelike, all of
the ramapithecids have peculiar unapelike teeth: big molars, heavy enamels,
small canines. They foreshadow hominids. The dryopithecids, with apelike
teeth, foreshadow modern apes."
I'm not trying to convince you of anything. That would be wasted
effort - you have your views, I have mine. I would rather teach
those younger and more easily misled minds how misquotes and
incomplete quotes can twist black into white, to mix a metaphor.
Creationists most often misquote biologists and other scientists and
take them out of context to make them appear to "'admit" that
evolution doesn't take place some how. Here's a good example from one
of the more dishonest and delusional Creationists around the network.
Wed 3 Dec 97 22:18
Laurie Appleton:
I understand your embarrassment!
Alec Grynspan:
"In several animal and plant groups, enough fossils are known to bridge
the wide gaps between existing types. In mammals, for example, the gap
between horses, asses and zebras (genus Equus) and their closest living
relatives, the rhinoceroses and tapirs, is filled by an extensive series of
fossils extending back sixty-million years to a small animal, Hyracotherium,
which can only be distinguished from the rhinoceros-tapir group by one or
two horse-like details of the skull. There are many other examples of fossil
'missing links', such as Archaeopteryx, the Jurassic bird which links birds
with dinosaurs (Fig. 45), and Ichthyostega, the late Devonian amphibian
which links land vertebrates and the extinct choanate (having internal
nostrils) fishes ..."
Evolution 1978, Routledge & Kegan Paul Ltd. pp. 131-133 "
But, of course, you never get embarassed, do you, Laurie?
That's because you aren't honest enough to care.
Laurie Appleton:
Alec Grynspan:
Laurie Appleton:
Alec Grynspan:
Return to The Skeptic Tank's main Index page.
Thu 27 Mar 97 0:51
By: DAVID RICE
To: MARK O'NEILL
Re: The faulty designs of the gods
KY> everything He[sic] made, there is a reason for.
Sat 31 May 97 18:14
By: Karl Schneider
To: John Musselwhite
Re: Creationists lie only to themselves
JM> [Creationists] did not hesitate to misquote, distort, take out
JM> of context, and in other ways violate the Biblical commandment
JM> against bearing false witness. And even so they proclaimed
JM> their own view as true only by default and never, at any time,
JM> have presented rational evidence in favor of their creationism,
JM> which they solemnly (but ridiculously) call 'scientific
JM> creationism.'"
"What the creationists *call* evidence is quotations from various other
creationists whom they call 'scientists' on the basis of such things as
a degree in engineering; making use of NO quotes, moreover, that ever
offer any evidence worthy of the name."
Sat 31 May 97 19:13
By: Ed Mills
To: Julie Smart
Re: Science v261:321-327
??>> time to read a bunch of fairy tales?
Darwin's Black Box: The Biochemical Chalenge to Evolution by Michael
J. Behe, Free Press, 1996 ($ 25.00)
Behe is one of those "must believers" who run into something they don't
understand and then handle it by throwing up their hands and exclaiming,
"gods mustas dun it."
Sun 27 Jul 97 10:40
By: Fredric Rice
To: Alan Presley
Re: Creation science - where is it?
By: Fredric Rice
Re: 'Mything' Links!
JB> that creationism is balderdash, and that 'anyone who thinks
JB> the earth is only 7,000 years old' ought to have his head
JB> examined? (*chuckle*)
la> that does not say that he is not better informed than most
la> evolutionists, when he states other things. i.e.;
Entropy....according to this person Evolution could not occur because
everything in the universe cycles from the complex, to the simple (which
is how I felt after attempting to get around the wall of alleged logic...)
Your fundy got it wrong. Entropy referes to the energy budget within a
closed system. The Earth isn't a closed system: It receives a great
deal of energy from the Sun, ergo evolution continues to work as observed.
Evolution on Earth will stop when its Sun collapses.
Date: Sat 6 Sep 97 17:35
By: Mark Nelson
Re: Evolution in the News
No, I never saw that message you wrote about stage magic. Those NDE
weren't true if the person wasn't dead or in code blue. It was just a
routine operation from what I gathered from it. Of course some people
are going to dream things like that. I have not ditched science. I
enjoy science greatly (especially chemistry). From what I've gathered
using logic and observation, creatrion is the only plausible answer.
Hold on a minute. Find out what you are talking about before making
blanket statements.
I think it is the evolutionists who don't think rationally and are
dogmatic in their beliefs.
The pot is calling the kettle black.
I have that book, so let's quote the entirety and capture the context.
"At any rate, modern gorillas, orangs, and chimpanzees spring out
of nowhere, as it where. They are here today; they have no yesterday,
unless one is able to find faint foreshadowings of it in the dryopithecids.
Pilbeam assumes that the relationship exists, and has so indicated in a
chart he has constructed -- although he does leave a huge gap in it, and
makes no attempt to link any specific dryopithecid with any living ape.
Since Patterson is honest enough to say that "there is NOT one
such fossil for which one could make a watertight argument" (Ibid)
then you are not making any sense, but simply begging the question.
Of course, if we continue with the sentence and paragraph:
"... a watertight argument. The reason is that statements about
ancestry and descent are not applicable in the fossil record. Is
Archaeopteryx the ancestor of all birds? Perhaps yes, perhaps no: there is
no way of answering the question. It is easy enough to make up stories of
how one form gave rise to another, and to find reasons why the stages should
be favoured by natural selection. But such stories are not part of science,
for there is no way to put them to the test."
I have produced other humans and my parents were humans as were my parents
parents as far back as we have records. There is evidence going back
thousands of years that there were humans and that they also produced
"after their kind". You sound rather desperate to have evolution
in SPITE of the facts. Why is that? Did you turn up a monkey somewhere in
your ancestry then?
It figures that you'd use such a nonsense example.
Why fit any more than the absolute minimum that would be logically and
scientifically required?
Several billion - yes - we already know that, Laurie.
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