From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.origins
Subject: Barry Price Update
Date: 9 May 1994 10:45 MST
Organization: University of Arizona
Message-ID: <9MAY199410453573@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu>
 
Barry Price and Ian Plimer were the subjects of criticism in my article
"How Not to Argue with Creationists," which appeared in _Creation/Evolution_
in the Winter 1991-92 issue (copies available from me via email by
request).  Price wrote a lengthy reply which was trimmed down into
"A Response to James Lippard" in the Winter 1992 issue of
_Creation/Evolution_.  The longer version was advertised as being
available from Ian Plimer, but my requests for a copy (via both email
and paper mail) were ignored.  (I don't know if anyone ever requested
and received a copy.)  I obtained the longer version from _C/E_ editor
John Cole, and wrote "How Not to Respond to Criticism: Barry Price
Compounds His Errors" as a reply (available in /pub/origins on
ics.uci.edu or from me via email).
 
The following is an update on the situation which I just received
from Carl Wieland, head of the Australian Creation Science Foundation.
 
   Lawsuit outcome: God is sovereign
 
   We can now share with you the final outcome of the legal action
   which was launched against us by a prominent anti-creationist (BP)
   some months ago.
      After Carl Wieland (CW) and Dr Andrew Snelling had withdrawn
   from a nationwide ABC radio program some time ago, BP said on air
   that CW had been under police investigation for fraud.  Stunned by
   this false accusation and other innuendo on the program, we were
   prayerfully seeking wisdom from the Lord as to the correct course
   of action when a lawsuit from the same BP arrived, claiming that
   CSF had defamed him!  (We had published a hard-hitting, factual
   response to a much-touted anti-CSF book he had written, which we
   had claimed was both misleading and defamatory in a number of
   places.)
      We had now been forcibly drawn into a legal fray which top
   Christian legal advisors informed us could mean we would have to
   raise hundreds of thousands of dollars from supporters to cover
   costs, even if successful.  After further prayer and deliberation,
   a countersuit was launched against the said BP and the ABC,
   alleging defamation of CW.
      Subsequently we have been informed that the said BP was struck
   down with a serious and apparently permanent cerebral affliction,
   requiring 24-hour nursing care and making any further involvement
   in the lawsuit or the creation/evolution controversy highly unlikely,
   if not impossible.  His case against CSF has now been dismissed by
   the NSW Supreme Court.  In the other case involving CW, judgement
   has been entered against BP.  We will not be pursuing costs or
   damages in view of his (and his family's) plight.
      The ABC has already broadcast a nationwide apology under an
   agreement to settle on reasonable terms.
      We thank all of you who prayed in this matter; the net costs to
   the ministry, though significant, have been a fraction of what could
   have been the case, and the integrity of CSF has been upheld at law.
 
   ABC Radio Apologizes--Again!
 
   On Sunday, 13 March, 1994, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation
   made the following statement via a nationwide radio broadcast:
      'On 6 September 1992 we had a discussion on the program about
   Creation Science.  Dr Carl Wieland, the Managing Director of Creation
   Science Foundation was, along with a colleague, an invited guest on
   the show.  Both left early and there followed a discussion with Mr
   Barry Price who stated that Dr Wieland "had been under police fraud
   investigation for the past six months."
      'The ABC accepts that this uninvited statement is untrue.  The
   ABC apologizes to Dr Wieland for all and any harm suffered as a
   consequence of any material broadcast in the program.'
      (In 1989, the same organization issued a nationwide broadcast
   apology for false allegations concerning CSF finances, made by
   another leading anti-creationist.)
 
Meanwhile, the CSF's technical journal has been publishing critiques
of bad young-earth arguments, most recently of the "moon dust"
argument.  The March 1994 issue of the American _Creation Research
Society Quarterly_ contains a letter from Wieland which announces
the publication of the moon dust article, as well as offering criticism
of another _CRSQ_ paper.
 
Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721

From: lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard)
Newsgroups: sci.skeptic,talk.origins
Subject: Re: Barry Price Update
Date: 9 May 1994 14:35 MST
Organization: University of Arizona
Message-ID: <9MAY199414352093@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu>
References: <9MAY199410453573@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu>
 
In article <9MAY199410453573@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu>, lippard@skyblu.ccit.arizona.edu (James J. Lippard) writes...
[From a Creation Science Foundation publication:]
>      After Carl Wieland (CW) and Dr Andrew Snelling had withdrawn
>   from a nationwide ABC radio program some time ago, BP said on air
>   that CW had been under police investigation for fraud.  Stunned by
>   this false accusation and other innuendo on the program, we were
[...]
>   On Sunday, 13 March, 1994, the Australian Broadcasting Corporation
>   made the following statement via a nationwide radio broadcast:
>      'On 6 September 1992 we had a discussion on the program about
>   Creation Science.  Dr Carl Wieland, the Managing Director of Creation
>   Science Foundation was, along with a colleague, an invited guest on
>   the show.  Both left early and there followed a discussion with Mr
>   Barry Price who stated that Dr Wieland "had been under police fraud
>   investigation for the past six months."
>      'The ABC accepts that this uninvited statement is untrue.  The
>   ABC apologizes to Dr Wieland for all and any harm suffered as a
>   consequence of any material broadcast in the program.'
 
I should note here (as I comment on in more detail in "How Not to
Respond to Criticism") that the CSF (but not Wieland personally)
*was* investigated by the Queensland Police Service Fraud and Corporate
Crime Squad in November of 1992--but at the instigation of Barry Price
(as a result of his erroneous analysis of the CSF's financial returns)
and Mark Plummer (president of the Victorian Branch of the Australian
Skeptics and former executive director of CSICOP).  Detective Superintendent
C. J. Crawford of the Queensland Fraud Squad reported on November 10, 1992
that "Inquiries ... have failed to substantiate any evidence that an offence
has been committed with respect to the statute law of Queensland."  The
matter was then closed.
   In essence, what happened was that in the early eighties, the CSF,
along with a bunch of other people, got ripped off by another company.
The CSF lost a bunch of money which had been loaned at no interest by
supporters for the purpose of investment, so that the CSF could use the
interest earned.  The CSF didn't say anything publicly, but did issue a
statement to its biggest supporters in order to collect donations to pay
back all of the interest-free loans, which it did.  The Australian Skeptics
learned about the loss by looking at the CSF's (publicly filed) returns,
and made it public, to the CSF's embarrassment.  Martin Bridgstock's
article on the loss is quite accurate, though somewhat incomplete.
   Barry Price did his own analysis, and came to some odd conclusions as
the result of a number of errors, including misreading some numbers in
the returns.  He apparently thought that some $9,000 was unaccounted for,
and wrote in his book that a similar amount of money was paid to a member
of the CSF's board of directors.  This was completely wrong--there was no
money unaccounted for, and Price got the name of a director who was paid
$8118.75 (which Price misread as $8719) wrong.  The director Price named
had not been paid anything by the CSF, and he filed a defamation suit
against Price, and the publisher withdrew Price's book.  The director
who had been paid was paid for working full-time for the CSF, on a
weekly basis.  Price apparently thought the above was a lump-sum payment
that was close to the "missing" $9,000. 
   I know of no evidence of the CSF engaging in any kind of financial
fraud, but there is plenty of evidence of skeptics making all sorts of
unsubstantiated and erroneous charges against the CSF.  My analysis has
been distributed all over the place, including to all of the principals
involved and several members of the Australian Skeptics.  None of them
has challenged my account, and yet none of them have retracted any of
the false statements I have documented in my articles.
 
Once again, all of this is discussed in excruciating detail in my
unpublished reply to Barry Price, "How Not to Respond to Criticism:
Barry Price Compounds His Errors."
 
Jim Lippard              Lippard@CCIT.ARIZONA.EDU
Dept. of Philosophy      Lippard@ARIZVMS.BITNET
University of Arizona
Tucson, AZ 85721