The cure for cults that want to deny others their freedom of speech is more freedom of speech -- Fredric Rice

Date: Thu Jun 13 18:26:14 2002
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@linkline.com>
To: "Jason Daniel Henderson" <jhenderson@icr.org>
Sub: ICR cult copyrighted materials?

At 21:14 6/12/02 -0700, Jason Daniel Henderson wrote:

>> Your previous E-mail to my organization claimed
>> that one of the automated forms my software generated
>> that's located at http://www.skeptictank.org/flist026.htm
>> was some how copyrighted by the ICR cult.

> You are incorrect. Here is what was sent in my
> first email:
>
> "The Institute for Creation Research kindly requests
> that you immediately remove all ICR content from your
> site and stop distributing our material."
>
> There was no mention of your form.

The Skeptic Tank routinely receives e-mail from academics noting their inability to acquire honesty from Creationists even when honesty would serve. I merely mention it. And in fact your first e-mail to my office [which I never received yet the ICR cult claims they sent - flr] was the following which most definately claims that my form is copyrighted by the ICR cult:

-=-

From: Jason Daniel Henderson
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2002 1:37 PM
Subject: Copyright Violations of ICR Material

Mr. Rice,

The Institute for Creation Research kindly requests that you immediately remove all ICR content from your site and stop distributing our material. Your page at: http://www.skeptictank.org/flist026.htm is one example of violating our copyright. Here is the first paragraph of our copyright that can be found on every page of our website by clicking the copyright link:

ICR's Copyright Notice: Nothing on our website may be reprinted or reproduced for other websites and media in whole or in part without obtaining permission from ICR. This applies to the website pages, content, graphics, audio and video, etc.

Feel free to link to our material and/or properly cite small portions, etc. I would appreciate it if you let me know when you have taken care of this. Thank you for your time.

Jason **************************************************** Jason Daniel Henderson, Web Developer Institute for Creation Research http://www.icr.org/

-=-

And we discovered together (with much hand-holding) that http://www.skeptictank.org/flist026.htm is copyrighted to The Skeptic Tank, not to the ICR cult.

>> Now you're demanding that all of the critical
>> text documents that form enumerates which debunks
>> a number of Creationist cults' deliberate lies
>> and deceptions must not be allowed to be disseminated
>> to the public. And you're trying to justify that
>> demand by claiming that all of those texts are some
>> how copyrighted by the ICR cult.

> No, I am stating facts and asking you to be professional.
> I have linked and copied our copyright numerous times.

Your constant claims have been that the criticism my educational organization disseminates to academia and the lay public is some how copyrighted by the ICR cult. A blatant attempt to stiffle my organization's freedom of speech. Until now you've been utterly unable to give me the names of any files that you felt were in violation of the ICR cult's copyrights.

I see below that you _finally_ got around to listing files in what appears to be an ad hoc shotgun attempt to deny me my freedom of speech... which fondly reminded me of a Richard Dawkins lecture I once attended wherein Mr. Dawkins noted that scientists who make the attempt to extract a straight answer out of Creationists should acquire a dental degree first. <smile>

> You can lie about ICR all you want.

And thus we find the motivation behind your demands that my organization stop criticizing the ICR cult. If you can find anything on The Skeptic Tank covering Creationist cults which is inaccurate or in any way in error, do please let me know so that the "lies" may be corrected. You have the right to "correct" what your opinion compells you to pretend are "lies" on The Skeptic Tank. You do _not_ have the right to demand that the "lies" you find on The Skeptic Tank are some how copyrighted to the ICR cult.

You had -- prior to your groundless demands -- the ability to _politely_ request any of the thousands of documents made available through my educational organization to determine for yourself whether the ICR cult's copyrights are some how being violated. You may not blatantly demand that criticism of Creationists cults be halted just because you want to pretend criticism are lies.

>> Have you ever heard of the First Amendment? How about
>> the Bill of Rights? Does the name "United States
>> Constitution" ring any bells? Have you heard of a concept
>> called "Democracy?" Frankly it appears to me as though
>> your complaint is a rather blatant demand that my
>> organization cease its Constitutionally guaranteed right
>> to criticize notorious Creationist cults.

> You keep on ranting for nothing.

I guess your answer to my questions is, "No." <heh> Well, with Creationist cults' endless attempts to violate the Seporation of Church and State laws of the land, I guess "No" is at least ideologically consistant.

> As stated above, you may make false statements and
> slander ICR as you see fit for the time being.

When you can find any false statements or slander anywhere on The Skeptic Tank, please do get back to me with specifics so that the errors may be corrected. Above all, The Skeptic Tank wishes to maintain the highest level of academic standard for accuracy in the criticism disseminated through our office. The Skeptic Tank has a well regarded, professional reputation which must be maintained and it is our policy that errors, inaccuracies, or falsehoods be corrected as soon as they are determined to be in need of repair.

With our thanks.

It is also The Skeptic Tank's policy to review claims of copyright violations as soon as they are identified. With your blanket, unspecific claims coupled to the fact that you named an automatically created form which the ICR cult could not possibly own, you were ignored. It took you long enough to finally come up with a list for my staff to check out, I must say.

>> Since my educational, nonprofit organization has
>> a deserved reputation for honesty and fair play,
>> I'm more than willing to receive from you a list
>> of specific file names and web site URLs which some
>> how violate the ICR cult's copyrights and I would be
>> more than happy to either remove them else make
>> certain that they conform to U. S. Code Title 17
>> under the dictates of "Fair Use." (The details of
>> which you may read for yourself at
>> http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/17/107.html) Send
>> me specifics instead of vague threats of intimidation
>> decrying my Freedom of Speech rights and I will make
>> absolutely certain that they are either removed or
>> that they conform to Fair Use.

> Here is the list as if you didn't know. Nobody has
> threatened you yet. We have requested that you respect
> our copyright and link to our articles rather than
> reproducing them like talkorigins.org, infidels.org,
> and others.

And here we find further evidence that it's criticism of Creationist cults that motivates your bizarre notion that criticism some how violates the ICR cult's copyrights. If either TalkOriginns.ORG or Infidels.ORG are some how violating the ICR cult's copyrights, I'm sure that they would like to know about it as I suspect it would come as rather a surprise to them, too.

> IMP-184A.ZIP [7780 bytes] --- 'The Meaning of 'Day' in
> Genesis' by James Stambaugh. Examination of how the word
> 'day' is used in Genesis and throughout the Bible.
> Concludes day means 24-hour period in Genesis 1.
> IMP-188A.ZIP [16982 bytes] --- 'The Mystery of the
> Earth's Magnetic Field' by Russell Humphreys, Ph.D.
> Review of creationist research on the decay of the
> earth's magnetic field [it doesn't] and bearing on the
> Genesis flood.
> IMP-209A.ZIP [8183 bytes] --- 'Evolution and the Wages
> of Sin' by John D. Morris. A look at death, sin, evolution,
> and the Bible. How different, and compatible, are they?
> IMP-107A.ZIP [8147 bytes] --- 'Evolution Is Religion[sic],
> Not Science' by Henry M. Morris. The religious[sic] nature
> of evolution as expressed by leading evolutionists and the
> scientific irrelevance of evolution.
> IMP-218A.ZIP [7809 bytes] --- 'Hugh Ross, ICR, and Facts
> of Science' by James S. Stambaugh. An examination of the
> scientific differences between Hugh Ross and the Institute
> for Creation Research.
> IMP-220A.ZIP [8092 bytes] --- 'Columbus and His Creator'
> by Paul G. Humber. Christopher Columbus's views about the
> Creator and motivation for finding the New World.
> IMP-221A.ZIP [8228 bytes] --- 'The Bible, Creation, and
> Ecology' by Henry M. Morris. The Biblical basis for a
> Christian approach to ecology. Also critiques environmentalism
> and pantheism.
> IMP-249A.ZIP [9111 bytes] --- 'Darwin's Teaching[sic] of
> Women's Inferiority' by Dr. Jerry Bergman.
> IMP-251A.ZIP [8880 bytes] --- 'Star Formation and Genesis
> 1' by James Stambaugh. Examination of Genesis 1:14-19 and
> Dr. Hugh Ross' interpretation of these verses and the
> formation of stars.
> IMP-252A.ZIP [7605 bytes] --- 'Tree Rings and Biblical
> Chronology' by Frank Lorey. Using Bristlecone pine
> tree-rings to date creation and Noah's flood.
> IMP-253A.ZIP [7536 bytes] --- 'Geocentricity and Creation'
> by Gerald E. Aardsma. Review of geocentricity,
> heliocentricity, and Bible. Concludes [falsely]
> geocentricity is not taught in the Bible.
> IMP-254A.ZIP [40021 bytes] --- 'Out of Whose Womb Came
> the Ice?' by Larry Vardiman. An examination of ice core
> data, temperature changes, & precipitation in support of
> a world-wide flood & only one Ice Age.
> IMP-255A.ZIP [29563 bytes] --- 'A Practical Model for
> Integrating Science and Faith' by Stephen W. Deckard. How
> to integrate Science with Faith...and become a better
> scientist! Includes two .PCX files of figures.
> IMP-256A.ZIP [41064 bytes] --- 'Gravity' by Don. B.
> DeYoung, Ph.D. Overview of the nature of gravity and its
> relation to the Bible. Includes 3 .PCX files of
> illustrations and table.
> IMP-257A.ZIP [9014 bytes] --- 'The New State
> Religion[sic]: Atheism' by Jerry Bergman. Examination of
> the atheist views of several prominent evolutionist and
> their efforts to negate the influence of religion.
> DOP92-1A.ZIP [71967 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Winter 1992, Dec-Jan-Feb 1992
> DOP92-2A.ZIP [71779 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Spring 1992, March-April-May 1992
> DOP92-3A.ZIP [72588 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Summer 1992, June-July-August 1992
> DOP92-4A.ZIP [72231 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Fall 1992, Sept-Oct-Nov 1992
> DOP93-1A.ZIP [71463 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Winter 1993, Dec-Jan-Feb 1993
> DOP93-2A.ZIP [72568 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Spring 1993, March-April-May 1993
> DOP93-3A.ZIP [71890 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Summer 1993, June-July-Aug 1993
> DOP93-4A.ZIP [70450 bytes] --- Days of Praise, I.C.R.
> Fall 1993, Sept-Oct-Nov 1993
> IMP-244A.ZIP [5661 bytes] --- The Dating Gap by Marvin L.
> Lubenow. I.C.R. Impact article No. 244, Oct. 1993.
> IMP-245A.ZIP [6754 bytes] --- Christianity and Technological
> Advance: the Astonishing Connection by T.V. Varughese.
> I.C.R. Impact article No. 245, Nov 1993.
> IMP-246A.ZIP [6433 bytes] --- When God Became Man by
> Henry M. Morris. I.C.R. Impact article No. 246, Dec. 93.
> IMP-247A.ZIP [7919 bytes] --- Compromises and Consequences:
> The Genesis Account by Fred Willson. I.C.R. Impact article
> No. 247, Jan 94.
> IMP-248A.ZIP [8175 bytes] --- Would China Benefit From
> Christianity? by John D. Morris. I.C.R. Impact article
> No. 248, Feb. 94.
> IMP-250A.ZIP [8761 bytes] --- 'When Is a Whale a Whale?'
> by Dr Duane T Gish, Ph.D. Critique of recent reports of
> the finding of the transitional fossil of a whale.
> Institute for Creation Research Cult's _Impact_ article
> #250, April 1994.
> IMPR9405.ZIP [25868 bytes] --- Imprimis, May 94, Vol. 23,
> No. 5. 'The Real Environmental Crisis: Environmental Law'
> by Robert J. Ernst.
> IMPR9406.ZIP [41274 bytes] --- Imprimis, Jun 94, Vol. 23,
> No. 6. 'Education: The Second Door To Freedom' by Clarence
> Thomas, Assoc. Justice, Supreme Court of the U.S. and
> 'Capitalism and the Future of America' by George Roche.
> IMP-215A.ZIP [9889 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-229A.ZIP [10252 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-230A.ZIP [6861 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-231A.ZIP [10682 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-232A.ZIP [10218 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-233A.ZIP [98315 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-234A.ZIP [10444 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-235A.ZIP [9759 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-236A.ZIP [9690 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-237A.ZIP [10033 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-238A.ZIP [9519 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-239A.ZIP [28127 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-240A.ZIP [10171 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-241A.ZIP [10597 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMP-242A.ZIP [19112 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMPR9203.ZIP [31316 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> IMPR9311.ZIP [36751 bytes] --- I.C.R. Propaganda
> ICR184.ZIP [5140 bytes] --- THE MEANING OF 'DAY'
> IN GENESIS
> ICR185.ZIP [4865 bytes] --- CSA PATH FOR EXCELLENCE
> IN K-6 SCIENCE (Creationist propaganda)
> ICR187.ZIP [4803 bytes] --- CSWRITING OFF CREATIONISM
> (Creationist propaganda)
> ICR188.ZIP [5604 bytes] --- THE MYSTERY OF THE EARTH'S
> MAGNETIC FIELD (Creationist Propaganda)

My staff of volunteers and I will examine these texts to see if they conform to Fair Use standards as described in U. S. Title 17. If they do not I will have them modified to reduce the ICR cult's quoted text and I will add suitable factual debunkings to the cult's traditionally bizarre claims. If I find, however, that these criticisms conform to Fair Use and to the Lanhem Act, I will most certainly not remove them and will not have my Constitutional rights thwarted as is your obvious intention.

In either event I will be adding your e-mails to each of the debunkings inasmuch as you've contributed considerably to the already extensive exposures of the notorious behavior of Creationist cults.

With my thanks.

Obviously that doesn't meet with your cult's approval since it's blatantly obvious that the cult desires the lack of academic criticism of the cult's bizarre and unfounded claims however you'll have to get used to the fact that there are Constitutional dictates which negates such scallywag behavior.