Subject: Transcript: Jeff Jacobsen on KTAR (2 of 5) Date: 3 Feb 1997 01:20:03 -0700 Straus

======== Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Subject: Transcript: Jeff Jacobsen on KTAR (2 of 5) From: tashback@primenet.com (Tashback) Date: 3 Feb 1997 01:20:03 -0700 Strauss: Back already? Talking about the Lisa McPherson death in Clearwater, Florida, with Jeff Jacobsen. Also with Ginny Leason from the Church of Scientology, and Ginny, I am delighted that you called, I really am. We have Ginny there? Well, we gotta wait until we -- I know she -- hm. Uh oh. We lost her? OK, Iąll tell you what. Ginny, call us back on the newsline, 263-5556, thatąll make it a lot easier. 263-5556. Letąs got to the phones and talk with Jim. Hi, Jim. Jim: Hi. [Tape cuts out; miss a minute of dialogue.] Jim: --have been a Scientologist for over 25 years. And I guess Jeff has the right to do whatever he wants to do in terms of, you know, if he wants to attack religions or cults or whatever. If he feels itąs his God-given right to go out and save the world and all those poor people that are unfortunate that are being misabused and abused by all these alleged cults. I think that if one actually looked up the word łcult,˛ they would realize that Scientology is in no way, shape, or form a cult per se. It is actually a bona fide religion that our Internal Revenue Service has acknowledged and given full service and acknowledgment that it is a bona fide religion. So to continue to cast it into the realm of being a quote cult seems like itąs a little bit of a disservice and a little bit of a personal vendetta and maybe a little lack of irresponsibility. Strauss: You know, Jeff, I want to just interrupt. Jim makes a really important point. I donąt know, and I asked myself this question a while back. If somebody were going on the air and talking about my religion being a cult and being involved in the evil deeds of this and that and -- I would take it very personally. It would be very hard for me to divorce myself from that and exercise any objectivity. I would want to lash back. In the event that youąre operating on flawed information, or that youąre getting directed away from the truth through whatever -- and Iąm thinking completely hypothetically -- imagine what youąre doing to people like Jim and Ginny and anyone whoąs a member of the religion who in their hearts and in their minds both have not experienced any of what youąre talking about? Jim: Right, well, the only thing I -- Jacobsen: If I could respond -- Strauss: Iąd like to get his response, Jim, and then you can get a chance. Jim: OK. Jacobsen: L. Ron Hubbard came up with a theory that he called Scientology, and he put it out in the marketplace of ideas. So I think what the church wants is for the church to be able to teach its teachings and not have anyone criticize it. But itąs out there in the marketplace of ideas, just like my religion, Christianity. Iąve spoken in front of atheist groups before. I donąt mind if other people have an opinion that Christianity is bunko and garbage -- which, by the way, Hubbard thought that -- it doesnąt matter to me because I know for my own satisfaction what I believe. If another person has an opinion -- in fact, I read atheist stuff. I want to know what other people think about-- Strauss: You know, but when youąre in the majority, itąs very easy to be magnanimous. And I can only imagine if you were walking around, and because of the things that were said by people about your religion, there was a cloud over the religion, and hence a cloud over you, and I think thatąs where Jimąs coming from on this thing. Jacobsen: If what I say is a lie, if what I say is a misrepresentation, then thatąs correct. But if I say that Roxanne Friend stated she was held for two weeks by Scientologists against her will and she went to court with the church, the church settled out of court, what am I saying thatąs wrong? Strauss: Jim? Jim: Right. Well, I donąt know anything about that particular case of reference. I donąt know, but I might throw this thing back. I know that thereąs been a lot of discussion, and I think, if I remember correctly, Jeff has been involved in various deprogramming activities over the years. Jacobsen: No, I have not. Jim: You have not. OK. Oh, Iąm sorry, Iąm thinking of another gentleman. And that was the point I was going to make though, but itąs not Jeff, but itąs someone else, but, you know, these guys that go out as łWeąre going to save you from these different organizations,˛ and they take someone aside and deprive them for whatever reason so they will change their religious beliefs. My question is who on this planet has the right to go in and dictate to me what I believe or donąt believe? And just as a point, see, the thing thatąs really interesting and neat about Scientology is it doesnąt teach you that you have to believe just what Hubbard says. Itąs not a dogmatic youąve-got-to-believe-this-way-or-else. Itąs basically, the whole point and the purpose of the organization is to teach one to be able to think and progress through oneself and oneąs own awareness and oneąs own ability so instead of being a victim and the effect of society and the things that are going on, one comes to a point of realization that you can cause things to happen, and you donąt have to be the effect of everything. And basically you move up a person to being more of a cause point and less of an effect. Now, I find nothing detrimental or negative about that. And after 25 years of experience plus in this subject, I can assure you , I donąt have to be told by anybody łdoes it work?˛ or I donąt have to believe anything. I simply have observed it for myself. Strauss: Jim, are you -- were you aware of the Lisa McPherson case? Jim: You know, the only thing that I know about it -- just as a point -- I donąt necessarily want to get into a big thing on this. Strauss: No, no, no, I just-- Jim: But I just came back from Clearwater, Florida. And the first time Iąd ever heard about that was I read something in the newspaper. And there was basically some allegations about these things written, I think, in the St. Petersburg Times. And I remember even reading something, I mean some, such off-the-wall stuff, itąs so ludicrous you donąt even give it any attention. Like, gee, thereąs -- Iąll mention this one, just, point, as I read something about these guys, sounds real nasty, like there were different -- she was in there supposedly and had cockroach bites and a bunch of stuff like that. Well, to be real honest with you, Iąve stayed in the Clearwater Ft. Harrison and the Sandcastle and these different facilities numerous times over the last several years, and Iąve never seen a cockroach in the place. And I mean that in all honesty. Iąve never seen a cockroach there. Strauss: But I saw, with my own eyes, the medical examiner explaining that these were bug bites and they were not mosquito bites. Jim: OK, well, I donąt know what they were. Strauss: Yeah, I donąt know either. Jim: But there was an allegation there were cockroaches, and Iąm just saying Iąve never seen cockroaches there. Obviously thereąs bugs in Florida, and what they were, I have no idea. I wonąt even conjecture on that. Iąm not an authority on Lisa McPherson. Strauss: OK. Fair enough. Jim: But I do know that the church does not hold people against their will. They do not not allow them to leave, because Iąve left Florida and come home on numerous occasions, and Iąve just never had anybody tell me that I couldnąt leave. Jacobsen: Can I get a word in? Strauss: Weąve got a minute until the news, and I want to give Jeff a chance to respond. Jacobsen: The Clearwater police donąt think this is a ludicrous case. Theyąre still investigating. The state Attorney General, I believe, is now investigating. The county prosecutor is investigating this case. So contrary to your opinion, some people think this is an important case, and it has not been settled yet. As far as people not being held against their will, Hubbard wrote in 1974 the Introspection Rundown, where he talks specifically about people being held in isolation, and no talking to them. And the case supervisor has to ask in writing what, for example, he says, łDear Joe, what can you guarantee me if you are let out of isolation?˛ And then if the guy doesnąt write back correctly, the case supervisor says, łDear Joe, Iąm sorry, but no go on coming out of isolation yet.˛ And then Hubbard says, łThis will elicit a protest from the person.˛ Well, of course. Heąs being held in isolation. And thatąs a Hubbard policy. Iąve got the volume 8 of the Red Volumes, you can look it up yourself. Page 260. Jim: OK, yeah, Iąll look that up. Iąve never actually seen it. Iąm not aware of the Introspection Rundown doing that, or of that being part of the rundown. Jacobsen: Read it. Strauss: Well, Jim, weąve got-- Jim: But could I make one last comment? Strauss: Real quick because weąre running out of time. Jim: Scientology has more self-help programs dealing with education, drugs, criminal rehabilitation going on than most any organization that Iąm aware of that exists. And I know theyąre making tremendous strides in that area, helping lots and lots, literally thousands and thousands, of people. Strauss: OK. Jim: And Iąm not even sure why itąs even a subject of discussion, why thereąs any negativity towards it. Strauss: Well, this isnąt the first time that thereąs been a hint of negativity about it, and the subject really was stimulated by the Lisa McPherson case, because this case is interesting. Jim: Well, sure. Strauss: Yeah. Weąve gotta take a break. Thanks. Jim: OK. Strauss: Bye bye. Jim: Bye. Strauss: Ginny, do we have you back? Ginny Leason? Ginny: Iąm here. Strauss: And it is Leason? Ginny: Yes, it is. Strauss: OK, terrific. Will you stick with us through the next hour? Or into the next hour? Ginny: Yes, I will. Strauss: OK. And so will Jeff Jacobsen. And I hope so will you. The lines are full. Weąre coming back after the news. Strauss: We started out talking about the Lisa McPherson case in Clearwater, Florida. Weąve got a lot of people on the line that want to respond one way or another to my in-studio guest, Jeff Jacobsen, who was the first person to alert the Clearwater police to the fact that the address, the 210 address-- Jacobsen: No, I got that information from the Clearwater police web page-- Strauss: But you-- Jacobsen: Iąm the first person that kind of broke the story to the public, I guess you could say, because I made the connection between that address on the police web page and the church. Strauss: Oh, I thought that you then contacted the police and told them this address is-- Jacobsen: No, itąs actually the police that informed me, and then I gave it to Cheryl Waldrop of the Tampa Tribune, who actually broke the story then publicly. Strauss: OK. Ginny Leason from the Church of Scientology is on the phone with us and is going to stick with us also, and Ginny, weąve got you? Ginny: Yes. Strauss: Tremendous. Weąre in good shape. And weąve got a board full of calls. 277-KTAR is the number. When somebody drops off. With that said, Paul has been on a long time. Paul. Hello, Paul. Paul: Good evening, Bill, Jeff, Ed. How you guys doing? Strauss: Good. Paul: Great. Strauss: Ed. Paul: Yeah, I heard Ed in the background there. At any rate, Bill, I am a Scientologist. I have been in the Church of Scientology either as a staff member or just a member of the church since Ś77, and I actually was going to say one thing, but Iąve listened to a good bit of your program this evening, and I do want to make one comment, and that is that just so itąs out there for people to see, both my wife and I were staff members of the church for a good number of years, and with the birth of our second child and the ill health of my wifeąs mother and father, we left the church back in Ś86. I didnąt suffer any consequences of doing so. We were out in LA at the time, we moved out here, weąve been in east Mesa since. My wife is currently at the church right now, in fact, or on the way home from it. My two children have taken some courses, not that weąre forcing the church on them. I find that in my 20 years with the church, itąs been extremely helpful to me, and whereas I am upset as anyone would be at the death of a young person such as Lisa McPherson, quite truthfully, Iąm in Mesa, Arizona. Until the police have finished their investigation, I couldnąt make one comment one way or the other about what I think the outcome of that will be. Strauss: Well, yeah. And I havenąt concluded anything either. But let me point out -- when we went to the break after Jimąs call, I turned to Jeff -- and my contact with Jeff -- I find Jeff to have a very gentle manner. I donąt find him to be a hate-mongering guy. I turned to him and said, łYou know, I bet anything Jim was telling us the truth.˛ I get a gut feeling about people from their voices, and I felt Jim was being completely straightforward, very honest with us, and I said to Jeff, łWhat does that make you think?˛ And you said to me you believe that a lot of Scientologists have never participated in or witnessed any of the kind of abuses that youąre exemplifying with the woman that you -- Rachel -- Jacobsen: Oh, Roxanne Friend. Strauss: Roxanne. Jacobsen: Right. No, I donąt want people to misconstrue what Iąm saying. Iąm not saying, you know, destroy the church, Iąm not saying everybody in the church gets hurt. Iąm saying some people get hurt by this organization, and itąs a policy that Hubbard wrote to hurt people. I quoted several quotes that Hubbard himself, the founder of the church, the person who people study -- they listen to his tapes, they read his works. That person told the church to hurt certain people. Thatąs what Iąm against. If the church would drop those policies and say, łWeąre sorry, we shouldnąt do that,˛ if the church would stop hurting people, some people -- Iąm not saying everybody in the church gets hurt; in fact, I think in some ways the church can be helpful to people -- Iąm saying that some people get hurt, and thatąs a policy of the church. Thatąs what Iąm against. Iąm not against their religious teachings, which you havenąt heard me say anything about even yet tonight. Strauss: No. And I also should point out, and Iąm sure Paul is familiar with this, as is Jeff, and most of our listeners, Germany has been on somewhat of a crusade to stifle and eliminate the Scientologists, and very recently, I think in the last 24 hours, the United States has come out publicly and condemned Germany for this. Jacobsen: Well, thatąs kind of a murky situation. The U.S. government has actually condemned both sides. Theyąve condemned the Church of Scientology for these full-page ads that theyąve put in the New York Times and different papers calling the German government, saying the German government is reverting back to Nazi-like-- Strauss: Both sides are calling each other Nazis. Jacobsen: Yeah, basically. And I think the German government is actually handling this incorrectly, because they just sort of donąt come out with their evidence. I think the German government should say, łThis is why we think the Scientologist group is a dangerous group˛ and then lay their evidence out there so people can see what the problem is in Germany. Ginny: OK, Bill? Strauss: Ginny? Ginny: This is Ginny. Strauss: Yeah, I knew that. I knew Pauląs voice hadnąt changed that much in the last couple of minutes. Ginny: I just want to kind of interject that if people really wanted to know what Scientology was about and they have a computer and they are on the Internet, they can go into the Scientology website, which is www.scientology.org and see for themselves. Strauss: OK. Ginny: And decide for themselves. Jacobsen: Can I plug my web page? Strauss: You already did. She just evened the score, 1-1, I believe. Paul, I appreciate your call. [Jeff had not given the URL for his web page; Strauss may have been confusing Jeffąs mentioning alt.religion.scientology with a plug for his web page. -- Tash] Paul: OK, thanks Strauss: Thank you. The next person doesnąt feel comfortable giving up their name, and we donąt demand that on the show. Let me just call you Skipper in Mesa. Skipper: Good. Strauss: OK, hi, Skipper. Skipper: Hi. Jacobsen: Hi, Skipper. Skipper: I was in the church for 22 years, and I believe what Jeff Jacobsen is saying is quite correct. I have been harassed. I have been locked up. I was in their prison for six years and escaped. And thatąs why I donąt want my name given out. But I donąt doubt a lot of those people saying what theyąre saying because theyąre trained and taught to say that exact thing that theyąve been saying. I have a little bit of fear for my own life, being that I no longer am allowed to speak to my son, who is still a member. And he refuses to call back when called, even at the request to attend the funeral of his late grandfather. Strauss: Were you held against your will here in Arizona? Skipper: Not in Arizona, in Hemet. Where the headquarters is. Jacobsen: Thatąs California. Skipper: Yeah. And in Los Angeles, in the basement of what is known as the blue building. Strauss: And what was the reason? Skipper: Pardon me? Strauss: What was the reason? Skipper: I no longer believed in what they were teaching. I saw flaws. And I went clear and then got sick, and I wasnąt supposed to. And I saw others being mistreated. And it was just a really bad scene. Strauss: Ginny? I donąt know if you want to respond. Ginny: I donąt know who it is or even what theyąre talking about because, again, I can reiterate, that that does not happen in Scientology. I have no clue when it happened or even if it ever happened. Jacobsen: Youąre saying people are never held against their will by the Church of Scientology? Ginny: No. Jacobsen: Is that what youąre saying? Ginny: Thatąs what Iąm saying. Strauss: OK. Jacobsen: Just asking. Strauss: I know Jeff doesnąt buy into that. Well, yeah, I have no way of knowing, Skipper. Thereąs no way of checking into what happened to you or how-- Skipper: Listen, Iąll tell you what. I can give you a call and give you some specifics, very specific information, in the next day or two, and then you can read it for yourself. Strauss: OK. Skipper: And I wanted to call because I was listening to these guys come on and how wonderful and everything great it is for them but thereąs at least two or three thousand people who are on the list that they issue who are suppressive persons, which Jeff had explained earlier. Strauss: Youąve seen a list like that? Skipper: Yes. Of course. Strauss: With your own eyes? Skipper: You want a copy of one? I can get you a copy of one. Hello? Strauss: Yeah, no, Iąm listening. Skipper: So anyway, thereąs a list of people that they say are suppressive. Now, I wanted to ask Jeff to clarify something because he said that Lisa was declared an SP, is that correct? Jacobsen: No, I didnąt say that. She had a -- OK, she did have, I think, which we can get into this, I guess. She had what the church calls a łpsychotic break,˛ I believe, when she took her clothes off after the car accident. And then, thatąs what the Introspection Rundown is for. A member who has had a psychotic break is supposed to do the Introspection Rundown, which I quoted from before the break, before the news. And the purpose of the Introspection Rundown is so that person can get over the psychotic break. And the method that Hubbard himself wrote, in the Red Volumes of his teachings here, are to isolate the person and have no speech. The person cannot be talked to or even hear someone speaking. And then thereąs a case supervisor. He supervises until he feels that the person understands why they had the psychotic break, and then itąs over. So in other words, the Introspection Rundown -- the process itself involves isolation of the person. Skipper: Yeah, Iąve experienced that myself. Strauss: Skipper, I would welcome anything you could send me, send my way. Skipper: OK. Thereąs one other point too. The statement that the church doesnąt harass members is absolutely incorrect. And thereąs a whole stack of issues which show the members of the church how to do it. Strauss: Issues of what? Skipper: Theyąre written references. Jacobsen: How to harass people. Skipper: Policy letters and so forth. And itąs just really hard to believe sometimes the level of ... um ... I donąt have the right word for it, so I donąt even know how to say it. But anyway, itąs hard to believe that somebody died, and all of a sudden, itąs sort of like a mystery, nobody knows what happened. The girl was in the church for 18 years. At least somebody would have been -- like a medical officer from the church could have been there. Strauss: Well, the salient point is when she was released from the hospital, they said they would watch her 24 hours a day, day and night, and the next time she returned to the hospital, her physical condition was unbelievable, and the medical examiner says that the person that was brought back to the hospital could not have been conscious within the 24 hours preceding that return to the hospital. That is not the story that Elliot, at least in the Inside Edition interview, that he is portraying. Skipper: Well, you know, as a 20-year veteran, the question I would ask is what did they do to Lisa to change the condition from being at the hospital and just a little bit psychotic to dead? I mean, thatąs like a real, I mean from one extreme to the other. Strauss: Well, we donąt know that anybody did anything. Thatąs what the investigation is hopefully going to uncover. Jacobsen: Thatąs what the police are trying to find out. And weąre hoping that -- weąre just trying to help the police, actually. Strauss: Skipper, Iąve got to take a break. Thanks for the call. Skipper: Hey, OK. Youąre welcome. Jacobsen: Thanks, Skipper. Strauss: We are going to break. Ginny Leason is with us, from the Church of Scientology. Jeff Jacobsen is the one that got the whole show rolling when he called me a few weeks back about Lisa McPherson, and weąre coming back.