Subject: Jeff Jacobsen on KTAR (4 of 5) Date: 3 Feb 1997 01:26:02 -0700 Straus: Weąre comi

======== Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Subject: Jeff Jacobsen on KTAR (4 of 5) From: tashback@primenet.com (Tashback) Date: 3 Feb 1997 01:26:02 -0700 Straus: Weąre coming up on 10:50 at Strausąs place. Jeff Jacobsen is in studio with me. Brought my attention to the case of Lisa McPherson. And I certainly will be interested in what the police end up concluding, if anything. The case is already over a year old. Jacobsen: Yeah. Itąs an ongoing investigation. And the police are asking help finding these three Scientologists that are on listed their web page. Oneąs in Hungary supposedly, oneąs in Mexico, and they believe oneąs in Austria. Straus: And Ginny Leason, from the Church of Scientology locally in Mesa, is with us on the phone. Have the police made a statement that they believe thereąs a link between members of the Church of Scientology and Lisa McPhersonąs death? Jacobsen: Well, itąs a suspicious death, thatąs what the police say-- Straus: Right, that-- Jacobsen: But you donąt have very many suspects. I mean, she was in the churchąs custody for the 17 days before she died, the church admits she was there. They came up with a story that the coroners totally disavowed about how she died. So thereąs not that many suspects that you can think of. Straus: And that does seem to be the case, based upon my knowledge of it, which is certainly not complete but getting more so as the evening moves on. Letąs get to as many callers as we can. I will ask you to be somewhat brief with your comments so we can squeeze a few of you in. Les. Hi. Les: Hello? Straus: Hello there. Les: Yeah, this is Les. And oh, man, I donąt know where to start here. We are talking about my religion, and Iąve been in it since 1971. In fact, I moved to the valley in Ś73 because there was a church here, and plus I liked the friendliness of the Arizona area, especially Phoenix. So Iąve lived here for many years. I have two businesses. I have a wife, two children. And I live my life with the principles of Scientology and I must say that we have a happy life, and my wife and I are more in love to day than we were when we first got married. My children donąt take drugs, they have high morals, theyąre like our friends, everybody tells us how great our kids are. Weąre examples of Scientology. Now, all I want people to do is get the facts for themselves. I think they mentioned the Internet site? But you know, I would like to invite you personally, just as a guy who lives out in the field as a businessman, Iąll meet you at the church, Iąll take you and walk you around or weąll have lunch, and Iąll show you personally what I have done via the church, and what we do as far as the criminal justice system, people, in prison, getting people off of drugs, I think we could have a wonderful show to show actually what our fruits are. Straus: I jumped on the line at the last break, and said to Ginny, Iąm very sincere, I want to come out and take a look at the church, so get ahold of her, sheąll let you know when Iąm coming. Les: Hey, that would be great because Iąm proud of my religion, I tell you what. And you know, when I got into Scientology, because of that, I now have a greater and deeper respect for all religions, and Iąm going to be helping on rebuilding that church that was burned, and I would go to war if somebody -- you know -- I would stand up for the freedom of all religions. Iąd put my life on the line because I feel religion is that important to this society. Jacobsen: But just because something says itąs a religion does not mean that you donąt have a right to be criticized. For example-- Les: Oh, Iąll tell you what. People need to consider the source of criticism. If they want, you know, real integrity is you need to look at it for yourself. Donąt take what I say as fact, donąt take what Jeff says as fact. Jacobsen: Right. Les: Look for yourself. Jacobsen: But look at both sides. Donąt just look at one side. Les: The IRS did more scrutiny than Jeff could ever do, and they came out with a completely bona fide religion, and-- Jacobsen: No, wait. Les: Go to any religious-- Jacobsen: Wait, wait, wait, wait-- Les: Just a second-- Jacobsen: The federal government does not say what a-- Les: Go to any religious-- Please let me finish. Go to a religious scholar who has looked at all our materials, go to several religious scholars if you want an opinion. But to Jeff Jacobs [sic]? What kind of credentials do you have, Jeff? Jacobsen: I have a bachelorąs degree in religious studies and nine hours toward a masterąs. Iąve listened to 50 hours of Hubbardąs speeches, Iąve read 18 of his books, Iąve been to-- Les: Yeah, and the problem is, see, I can go to a bible, which I respect the bible, and I could take one or two sentences out of that bible out of context-- Jacobsen: I donąt take anything out of context. Les: Just a minute, just a minute -- and send shivers down somebodyąs back if they didnąt know the rest of the bible. Is that not true, Bill? Jacobsen: Iąm not taking anything out of context. Straus: I do think thatąs true. I do think thatąs true. Les: So I mean, listening to him quote minutiae-- Jacobsen: Itąs not minutiae. Les: --that I havenąt read, but for him to do that, you know, it just doesnąt make sense, but hey, come on down! The doors are open, Iąd love to show you around, Iąd love to have you meet my kids and my wife-- Straus: Let me make one thing clear-- Les: Sure. Straus: I donąt live in a field. Itąs not the nicest place in the world, but itąs not a field. Jeff wanted to respond to one thing you said about the IRS. Les: What did you say about a field? Straus: You said something like, łYou live out there in the field.˛ Les: No, no. Straus: Iąm just-- Les: No, thatąs all right. Straus: I was kind of playing. I was trying to lighten it all up. A little joke. Les: (laughing) Oh, OK. Straus: I love having to explain my jokes. Les: I missed it, Bill, Iąm sorry. Straus: Thatąs OK. Jeff, you wanted to respond about the IRS. Jacobsen: OK, I want to make two points. First -- Iąll do the IRS second -- the religion aspect. Aum Shinriko is a group in Japan that gassed five thousand people. They said, łWeąre being persecuted. It was actually the FBI and the U.S. government going against us and gassing us.˛ And yet now they finally, some of them, have confessed to killing people. They did this łweąre a persecuted religion˛ thing. Les: Yeah, so do you actually-- Jacobsen: So donąt go trying to tell people that just because a group says łweąre a religion,˛ that they cannot be scrutinized-- Les: Oh, no-- Jacobsen: --and are not doing anything wrong. There are several religious groups that do things wrong. Straus: No, he-- Les: No-- Jacobsen: And I am saying the Church of Scientology does things wrong. Les: Well-- Straus: He was saying that the IRS scrutinized and found-- Les: Well, thereąs no, thereąs no-- Jacobsen: OK, weąre back to the IRS now. OK Les: Thereąs no more scrutiny than to go through an IRS audit, Iąll tell you. (laughs) Jacobsen: The federal government has no position to say what is a religion and what is not a good religion. You know. Thatąs not the point of the federal government. In fact, the Constitution says they canąt do anything to establish a religion. Les: Well, tell that to anybody thatąs gotten a tax audit. (laughs) Jacobsen: Also, the IRS case is in court right now. Tax Analyst is a magazine thatąs suing the IRS for the way that they gave tax-exempt status to the Church of Scientology. Also, one last thing. In a Church of Scientology publication I saw, the church claimed that they had 2500 cases against the IRS before that went through. Straus: Well, and pending litigation means nothing because-- Les: Yeah, thatąs true. Straus: But I will say one thing, Les. Les: Yeah? Straus: Elliot Abelson made the statement that he thinks thereąs a conspiracy in Clearwater between the police and the medical examinerąs office. I found that to be the most suspicious statement on the entire tape. Les: Well, hey, I donąt know the lawyer, and I canąt back that up. But Iąll tell you what, Iąve been to Florida in the last three years, my wifeąs been there, I know many people that are part of this Sea Organization that they spoke of, I know children that are there, Iąve actually toured the place, and I have to go with Ginny as well. What theyąre talking about, I donąt see. So-- Straus: OK, it-- Les: You know, thatąs all I can say. Straus: Itąs a split decision at this point, but I would look forward to meeting with you at some point. Les: It would be great, Bill, and Iąll tell you what. Straus: Quickly. Les: What ends this, all this, is if people just come in and look. Go to Florida and go take a tour. You know? Jacobsen: Again, Iąm not saying that the church hurts everybody, Iąm not saying that people donąt get helped by the church. Iąm saying that some people by policy of the church are hurt. Straus: Listen, Iąve got to take a break. Les, thanks. Les: You bet. Straus: I was going to open up the phones, but the phone lines continue to be filled. Ginny? Iąll talk to Ginny off the air. Can you stay, Jeff? Jacobsen: Yes. Straus: Weąll be back. Weąre gonna stay with this topic. Straus: Welcome back. I had anticipated opening up the phones this hour, but I am finding our discussion of the Lisa McPherson case and the Church of Scientology extremely interesting. I hope we still have Ginny Leason. Ginny: Yes, you do. Straus: OK, good. And we also have Jeff Jacobsen in studio. Ginny, I wanted to start out this hour. The security guard, Jerod, here, stopped me and asked me a question I couldnąt answer during the break, and I told him I would ask you to start out the hour. And the question is: Basically, in a nutshell, what do the Scientologists believe? I could give a two-sentence capsule of my religion. But, like he asked me, do they believe in God? Does their name mean that they believe more in a scientific approach to the world than a God approach? Ginny: OK, Scientology believes that man is basically good and offers the tools to anyone that they can use to become happier and more able as a person, to improve their conditions and their life for himself and others. And thatąs basically, in a nutshell, what Scientology is. Straus: Belief in God? Ginny: Yes. Straus: OK. One god? Monotheism? Ginny: Sure. Straus: OK. Also, much has been said, and just a couple of quick points. Psychiatry. The church is down on psychiatry in general. Is that accurate? Ginny: Accurate. Straus: What about regular doctors? Ginny: No. We donąt -- thereąs nothing against regular doctors. If a personąs body needs to be handled physically, they go to the doctor. And the church encourages a person to go handle their body, you know, through medical means. Straus: Jeff. One of the points that Jeff has made regarding the Lisa McPherson case is that she originally didnąt want medical assistance? Jacobsen: No, when she went to the hospital after the November 18th accident -- of course, she took all her clothes off, so the doctor there wanted her to be psychologically evaluated. But some other Scientologists came to the hospital and stated that Lisa did not believe in psychiatry so they would take care of her. And thatąs why she ended up, instead of at a psychiatric unit, she went to the Ft. Harrison Hotel of the church. Straus: OK. We have an abundance of phone calls, and because the show is being tracked on the Internet, weąre getting calls from some locations I donąt normally hear from. For example, Lee is in Oak Harbor, Washington, on Whidbey Island. Lee. Lee: Yes. Straus: You are really in a pretty place. Lee: Yeah, thank you. Straus: I donąt know about spiritually, but physically, you are in a good place. Lee: I just have one question, I have a couple of questions for Ginny. Scientology states that it respects other religions. Am I correct in stating that? Ginny: Yes, you are. Lee: I listened to a recording of L. Ron Hubbard stating that there is no Christ. Is that correct? Ginny: I donąt know what tape you are talking about. I by no means have listened to everything that L. Ron Hubbard has taped. If you could tell me what tape that is. Do you know? Lee: Well, one of the things I wanted to bring up also is respect for another religion is respect for its beliefs. Is that also correct too? Ginny: Mm hm. Lee: This happens to be a recording I actually listened to off the Internet, and it also stated that the birth of Christ, according to L. Ron Hubbard, was a mistake, an implant in the human psyche 76 million years ago. Is that also correct? Ginny: Well, I actually havenąt read that. I mean, where on the Internet did you read that? If you read it in the area that the Scientology has it on, then yes. Lee: Iąve read most of the information that the Scientology has, Church of Scientology. The Citizensą Committee [sic] on Human Rights, whose sole support is for the downgrading of the medical rights of psychiatry. Not for other human rights, just for fighting psychiatry. Ginny: Mm hm. Lee: And several other critics on the Internet, yes. Jacobsen: Can I jump in a second? The Professional Auditors Bulletin -- I have at home, unfortunately -- says that Hubbard states that Christ is an implant, which means a false memory put in our psyches years ago. Scientology, Ginny didnąt say, believes in reincarnation. Ginny: Right. Jacobsen: So thatąs an important aspect of their teachings. Lee: Yeah, thatąs all the questions I have. Straus: Religions believe different things. Ginny: Thatąs right. Straus: I really believe strongly that getting into a religion and examining it tenet by tenet -- if you have any religious predisposition, your objectivity is going to be questionable all the way through the process. Ginny: Exactly, and if you take parts of a religion, and only take a part of a religion, itąs not going to make any sense. Jacobsen: But, however, wait a minute. Scientology does that though, because, as you know, Ginny, you havenąt even taken the upper-level teachings of the church, so you still donąt know what a lot of the major teachings of the church are. Ginny: Thatąs true. Thatąs true. I havenąt had the upper-level materials. However, in Scientology, like in all religions, you go on a gradient as, you know, to what you need and to your speed. Itąs not a matter of -- Iąm also Methodist. I was baptized and christened in the Methodist church. I wasnąt baptized until I was 14 years old. Jacobsen: But you knew about baptism though. That wasnąt a secret teaching. Ginny: I knew about baptism, yes. Straus: All right. Lee, thanks for the call. Lee: Youąre welcome. Straus: Bye bye. Ginny, the Internet kind of sparked another thing. I know that the Church of Scientology is currently embroiled in a legal dispute over copyrighted materials appearing on the Internet. Could you give us a quick overview of that situation? ŚCause I donąt know all the details. Ginny: Well, basically, L. Ron Hubbardąs Scientology material is copywritten [sic] material. You can liken it to any book on the market is copywritten [sic]. Am I correct? Straus: Yeah. Ginny: So consequently, if someone takes a portion of a book or the material from the religion and takes it and tries to duplicate it without the express authorization of the holder, then itąs copyright infringement. And that is where the disagreement is. Straus: OK. Has that case come near to being settled? Ginny: That I couldnąt answer. Jacobsen: There are several cases. Arnie Lermaąs case, in Virginia, has been settled, where he has to pay five infringements, $500 per infringement, to the church. The church raided his home, spent I think a million dollars, on both sides, in that case, and it didnąt even go to trial. It was settled by the judge. The court cases are an interesting example of the churchąs heavy -- what I call iron-fisted -- approach to things that happen. The church also, by the way, uses trade secret law to try to protect their secret teachings. Which is interesting to me, because a trade secret implies itąs a business, but yet itąs a religion using these laws. But the heavy-handed approach, for example, Dennis Erlich was the first person that the church went after for Internet copyright infringement. They raided his home, spent seven hours in his home, and went through a whole bunch of stuff. They took his computers, a lot of things that didnąt -- he claims -- a lot of things that didnąt have anything to do with copyright violations, including some of his bank statements. Then they had a difficult time, he had a difficult time getting them back, even despite a court order to get his stuff back. So I think these court cases, if you look into them, are a good example of the church using this iron-fisted approach all the time to go after people. Straus: Well, they certainly are exemplary of the statement made earlier that litigation just seems to be a big part of -- Scientology is involved in a lot of litigation on a lot of fronts. Jacobsen: Right. Intimidation is a method that they always use. I would say always use. Theyąve used it against me. Theyąve had private investigators outside my home. I was deposed by a church attorney. And after I was leaving, they yelled at me. This is a real fancy attorneyąs office in downtown Phoenix. They yelled at me at the top of his lungs, łWe will raid you and sue you. You are on notice.˛ My posts have been canceled on the Internet. I just had a lunch with some Scientologists where they asked if Iąve ever murdered anyone, if Iąve ever bombed any buildings. They accused me of being a liar. I can go on and on. One private investigator came to my place of work and took photographs of me while I was working. He, by the way, is their main private investigator, and he has a warrant for his arrest in Tampa, Florida. Yet they continue to use him. Straus: OK. Letąs go back -- letąs take our break, and then we will get back to the phones. Talking about Scientology, and all sparked by the Lisa McPherson case. Joined by Ginny Leason from the Church of Scientology and Jeff Jacobsen, who is obviously very into this subject and into the case of Lisa McPhersonąs death. Still unsolved, still classified as suspicious by the police in Clearwater, Florida. Weąre coming back. ======== Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology Subject: Re: Jeff Jacobsen on KTAR (4 of 5) From: teddy@skylink.net (Ted Mayett (KoX)) Date: Mon, 03 Feb 1997 15:46:07 GMT On 3 Feb 1997 01:26:02 -0700, tashback@primenet.com (Tashback) wrote: >Straus: Belief in God? > >Ginny: Yes. > >Straus: OK. One god? Monotheism? > >Ginny: Sure. > Second time I've read that scientologists believe in God. In fact, since we scientologists here in Vegas do not know that we believe in God, I will be using a new picket sign soon. Something like this: Legal Update, You Now Believe In God This is going to be news to my locals, they do not even know that the Tech is called Sacred Scriptures. Second time I've read about God. The first time was an article that Sassie10 put up. Now I read this part of the transcript and it suddenly occurs to me that Sassie10 is Ginny Leason. That would explain some of the posts. And Ginny did tell me, when I asked, that she does not have an internet account. I never though to ask about an AOL account. The important thing is this though: The cult seems to be changing to a belief in God. First England, now the US. You reading this Clear Baby? It ain't a science anymore sweetmeat. You are a religion. :-) You've got God, you've got Faith. And you have a lot of Bibles. The Bible of yours I like the most is the History of Man, I love the part about the Cereal Boxes. And remember, the Cereal Boxes are *not* Confidential Sacred Scriptures. I think the Gorilla Goals are, but I'm not sure. Ginny, How can you lie like that? How can you get on a public radio show and say that scientology believes in One God? I'm going to tell my locals that you said they believe in One God. And when I tell them, they will think I am lying. They know that scientology does not believe in One God. You have to be pretty special to lie the way you do Ginny. Ted Mayett http://home.pacific.net.sg/~marina/misc/arshtml.htm