Well, I thought it was high time for a definitive transcript of at least the infamous highlights from this recording. Dennis' accounting of it, as related in this classic post, is quite good, but it's not 100% factual as to the actual words spoken. I noticed this before (nod to Laserclam) and I also noticed on a number of occasions, that folks have rendered it with further corruptions, in .sigs and whatnot.
Seeing as the 7-year anniversary of this unquestionably historic broadcast came and went without notice, I figure it's time to clean it up and get it over with. It's not easy, I might add, to get everything parsed out to the exact interruption and talk-over, and, where four people are arguing at once, it becomes impossible, but I think I've managed to extract a fairly accurate rendering.
Briefly, where two people are cross-talking, I've set them in rough columns, with text on the same lines occurring more or less simultaneously. Be prepared for the speaker to jump from one column to the other; that's just how it worked out, and, if anything it seems to better convey the chaos.
[[Segment begins at 0:00 of file kfi6.rm]]Jane Norris, host: This is KFI 640, more stimulating talk-radio, at 10:05 in the evening, we continue our conversation about Scientology; we have with us in the studio, President of the Church of Scientology Internation, Heber Jentzsch; also with us is Priscilla Coates of the Cult Awareness Network; and joining us now, on the air, is -- Dennis... (struggles with name, he helps) Erlich. And, Dennis, you were once a member of Scientology.
Dennis Erlich: Yes, I was. For fifteen years.
Jane: Okay, and tell me about your experiences in the Church.
Dennis: (begins slowly, seems self-concious) Well, when I (sighs) first contacted Scientology, it was 1968. And, I was 19 years old. Uhhm, I walked in, and they took me on a tour, much like the tour that you took today....
Jane: Saturday.
Dennis: Er, Saturday.
Heber: That didn't even exist, then.
(the moment is weighed)
Jane: Well. Go ahead.
Dennis: Uhmn, am I going to be interrupted while I tell my story?
Jane: No. I hope not.
Dennis: Uhuh, I appreciate it --
Jane: (to Heber) Give him an opportunity.
Heber: Okay.
Dennis: We've heard *plenty* from Heber, and he'll have --
Jane: And, he'll have, believe me, he'll have an opportunity to respond to what you say.
Heber: You'll hear some more! (laughs) That's the way it works, Dennis. (laughs heartily)
Dennis: Quite honestly, my stomach is churning, from the fact that.. (pause) This is a line.. His lines have been pumped into people's heads, without any rebuttal for long enough. Ah, Scientology is a series of facades, and he is the outermost of those facades.
Jane: (impatiently, cattleprod) Explain what you mean.
Dennis: Well, erhm, when I came into Scientology, I was toured around, and I was told that.. Lots of claims were made for Scientology, that it was the road to total freedom, that it would do all of these things, that it would basically turn one into God, or, a god.
Jane: And you obviously felt that that was an acceptable thing for you, for a time.
Dennis: Well, you have to remember that I was 19 years old, I was naive, and at the time, like most people who become.. infatuated with this type of cult, I was undergoing some personal difficulties for which I was seeking solutions. And so, the claim of these ultimate solutions.. uh, it was like.. having found.. water in a desert.
Jane: So, you found some form of.. some saving grace.. you felt that Scientology was the answer, for a time.
Dennis: I felt that any group that would make such claims, would have to be incredibly good, or incredibly evil. And, after having the tour, and.. having this all explained to me, I made the statement that, if Scientology is what it claims to be, then I should do everything I could possibly do to help it. But if it isn't, then I should do everything I could possibly do to destroy it.
Jane: How long were you involved?
Dennis: Fifteen years.
Jane: What made you stop?
Dennis: Well, I found out that, really, it was just a criminal conspiracy.
Jane: (impatiently focused) Explain what you mean.
Dennis: (uncomfortable) Well--(sighs) Lots of the activities of Scientology, deal in deception of either individuals or governments, so, in that sense, it is a conspiracy.
Jane: How were you deceived?
Dennis: I myself was deceived on the basis that this was a system of answers, rather than a system of belief. Um, Scientology claims that you don't have to believe anything, and yet, you have to suspend your disbelief, otherwise you are being critical.
Jane: What was so hard for you to believe?
Dennis: (picking up pace) Well, there wasn't anything that was really 'hard for me to believe,' because it's presented on a gradient. Jane: In other words-- --A little at a time. Okay. Umm, ultimately, after fifteen years of... what I would say is very dedicated service, to Scientology -- working, 9 in the morning til 10:30-midnight, at night seven days a week, for $17.50 an hour.. I mean, $17.50 a *week*, excuse me-- Jane: 17 dollars --50 cents a week, that's, and 50 cents? when we got paid at all. That's standard pay, in the sea org.
Jane: But, you were taken care of, as a member? Dennis: Taken care of, Your housing, and your food-- in terms of housed-- Yeah. Okay.
Heber: And your medical, and your clothes and so forth.
Jane: Did you-- How much did you donate to the CoS?
Dennis: Fifteen of my years. And, in terms of money? Probably $1,700.00-- maybe 3,000 at most. But, I was on staff. So, as far as the.. As far as how I was deceived; Scientology claims to be a system which-- by which, you can achieve certain things. And those things are only achieved in one's own mind. Those things.. are only a result of one's own belief system.
Jane: So your success in life is gauged by how much you know, about Scientology, and how far you have come along the path?
Dennis: Exactly. Exactly. Jane: Okay.
Dennis: And, within that framework, you can achieve status, but within society as a whole, you're segregated, from society, by the belief system itself.
Jane: So, you don't get to inter.. When you're involved with the [CoS] employed by.. How much interaction do you get with the rest of the planet?
Dennis: Well, really, what it amounts to is the average staff member only does Scientology, and has a short time off. The deceptive part of it is that Scientology really deals with exorcism, and that is what the basis of it is, Hubbard talked about that, in the most advanced tapes, that he gave on L-12, that exorcism *is* what you're dealing with--
Heber: (softly but quite urgently) Erm, he's had about seven minutes, can I talk Jane: Absolutely. Give him some time here? another minute here, He's had about seven until we minutes, you know.. get through through this exorcism Well.. thing. (to Dennis,) Exorcism?
[[Timeline: Dennis has had about five-and-a-half minutes to talk, but, interestingly, Heber's interjection occurs almost precisely at the 7-minute mark of the clip, which begins with 5 seconds of dead air, and about 20 seconds of nice fusion rock/jazz riff, the host's intro, etc, and with neither interruptions by Heber nor the recovery from them charged against Dennis' time. Further notations are made in this format, "5:30/7:00"]]
Dennis: Exorcism, that's the basis of Scientology, and, a person doesn't find that out until he's spent tens of thousands of dollars. That that's what he's being prepared for.
Jane: What are we exorcising? Heber: Well, he's-- He's-- Dennis: You're exorcising-- (begins chuckling forcefully) You're exorcising-- Heh, yeh-- Eh, lemme, --entities, who are-- lemme-- Well, you know, supposedly-- Hold on a second-- giving you-- He knew he wanted-- No-no-- (sternly) Jane: (sarcastically) Well, He's had hold on for Heber-- eight minutes-- (Abruptly shouts) LET HIM [[5:50/7:30]] FINISH here! -- He's had eight minutes, he's Well, we're just getting to just sitting there, going-- the good part here, now Naww, I'm-- naw, he-- hold on! Heber, please. He's-- He's talked-- Please, let him finish! You've had eight minutes, Now, wait a second. Dennis. Dennis. Dennis--
[[The host, Jane, is significantly peeved with Heber's behavior unbecoming of a guest. She plonks him.]]
[[Dennis is telling [[Heber's mike is momentarily Priscilla about Heber's muted, but he can be heard tactics of breaking in]] faintly]] What he wants to do-- [[mic opens]] Okay, you're Jane: I'm gonna *ask* you gonna cut it off, well you-- to cooperate with me and [[mic cut again, he frets on let him *finish*! about "looking at the clock," and how "it's been ten minutes," etc]]
[[6:03/7:43]]
Dennis: And please let me finish what I'm saying! This is what is deceptive about this cult, ahem: The fact of the matter is that it Heber: Naw, I-- You know-- deals with exorcism. The cult, Look-- you are talk--"Cult--" from beginning to end, deals with It's not a cult, you know it's exorcism-- It certainly *is* a cult, not a cult-- and I've been inside that cult, -- and I know, that it is a cult. No. You know what it is, and There's mind control that goes on, it's not a cult. because the-- (chuckles) I was in -- charge, of quality control, at their -- Florida Land Base. And I *know*. Heber: Well, that's not my -- position, and you know that -- every church in the world has I was posted by Hubbard himself. a quality controlll...
[[Heber tends to orchestrate his speech, sonorously and stacatto-like, by turns, when he is talking over someone. It's almost like a dance]]
Jane: Hold on a moment. Heber: No! Wait a minute! Let's-- Now, deal-- He's had thirteen minutes [[6:01/8:26]] Oh!? *NO*! here and I just wish-- thirteen minutes!? No! Well, I'm looking at the clock up here--
[[No, indeed. Since Heber's previous time-check, Dennis has had just a further *eleven seconds* free to pursue his point; the remainder, fourty-three seconds, was consumed by Heber's badgering over the single hot-button word, "CULT," and his fulminating disagreement over what time it was. Just so you notice too.]]
Dennis: Listen, I've heard-- Jane: Let's just ask-- Hold on. *his* line--for years. Both of you, hold on!
Heber: Wait a minute, fifteen ye-I've been in Scientology twenty-four years. And that's a lot longer than he is. [[Let the record show that Dennis is snickering]] Now he indicates that he was in for 15 years, obviously he chose to leave. And, Mister Erlich, I think you realize that, when you were in Scientology, that we were opposed to a number of things. We were also opposed to psychiatry, I don't believe you support it, ah, I don't believe that you as an individual, uh, can rea-- Look, here's the point: we can put all kinds of people on here--
Dennis: (demands) Well, Let's talk about exorcism! Heber: Let's talk about-- Priscilla: The point is that BTs-- Let's talk about *you*, Let's talk about *you*, Dennis: Let's talk about the deception. Let's talk about *him*, Let's talk-- Jane: (brightly) I'd like to I-- Once-- talk about the exorcism. If-- If-- Dennis: Yes, let's please discuss If we discuss, If we that. Let's discuss these beliefs discuss-- Let's-- that are not-- that you have to Hold on! pay thousands and thousands of -- dollars to find out about. No! This is absolutely, -- you know, his fabrication of -- what Scientology is! That is what it is! And you can't deny it!
Heber: (giddily) Well, listen, you know, *I* watched a show the other night, with Father Lavarre[[?]], On ABC TV, Dennis: Oh! Now we're gonna-- you know-- and if you --hear some other-- want to talk about-- --garbage. Hold-- Let's talk about the exorcism! Hold on! Let's talk about *you*, -- as an individual, and, -- the destructiveness that you have -- aimed at a religion because you're -- no longer a part of it! It has nothing to do with that! It's easy to find-- Has nothing to do with that You know-- at all! It has everything No, it doesn't. It has to do to do with that-- with the deception that goes on! It has to do with the facades *you* put up! Jane: All right, *nobody* is getting their *point* Heber: He's just gonna across-- --by yell-- override me-- Override--
Dennis: I have a *right* to talk, because I spent fifteen years of my life, the best years of my life! Heber: I spent 24 years-- Deceiving-- deceiving people -- on behalf of you and your organization! --
Heber: Naw, I think it was very clear, in his early statement, he said, he thought it was, you know, he either joined it because it was the greatest, uh, good, or, he thought it was the greatest evil, and he would attack it-- Dennis: --And it is the greatest And you spent 15 years-- evil. It's like the NAZI Party (stunned) Now *THAT!* in America! (unrepentant) Jane: All right! That's gonna cost me? Gentlemen, I've gotta-- Go ahead! Do something! That's I've gotta st-- my opinion and I have a right -- to it! I've gotta stop you here, we're gonna take a break!
On KFI, AM 640... more stimulating talk radio?
[[Segment begins at 0:00 of file kfi7.rm]]
Jane: ...our conversation about Scientology continues, Heber Jentzsch, President of the Church of Scientology, along with Dennis Erlich, former Scientologist -- We got into a pretty good argument about exorcism --
Heber: (horns in) And about NAZIS, and he's talkin' about NAZIS, and I wanna handle that because that particular allegation-- he knows very well-- [Dennis snickers] --Yeh-okay-- he knows *very well* that the [CoS] has dealt very strongly with this issue, and he also knows that--
Dennis: I also know that it's a fascist organization. Period. Heber: Okay-- And I know that I have a right Let's just deal with that-- to that opinion, because I know -- the fascist nature of it. I -- know that people on the outside -- like Travolta *don't* know what's -- going on inside of it, like -- Kirstie Ally-- they live in the-- They're personal friends they're waltzed around the outside of mine-- by people like you who show them a Personal friends of mine-- front-- they don't know about what Personal friends of mine-- goes on on the inside, they don't know about these They're-- RPFers who are locked up, they Let's just talk don't know about a *lot* of things about-- that go on on the inside. Dennis, "Dennis" nothing-- "Heber," Dennis, Dennis! when are you going to stop locking You're having a problem people up? When are you going to with communication, Dennis! stop these things? Dennis, Dennis, Dennis, -- you're just having a real *I'm* having a real problem, yeah, problem here, now let's I am having a real problem listening just address-- You-- It's to the garbage you're putting out! very-- Yah, I understand (exasperated chuckle at "understand") Dennis. Now listen. You I'm having a problem with the fact know the problem is you're that you lie, and you don't even *care*! having here-- Dennis, It doesn't even make a *difference* to Dennis, you, that you lie. Dennis, you know, you're sounding a bit wild here, (lowers voice) lemme just calm down--
Priscilla: Heber, when are you Heber: I-- (becoming stern) going to stop the RPF? How many Hey, Dennis- people are in the RPF right now? Dennis. Calm down. Dennis, listen:
Priscilla: (sotto voce) It's 'Priscilla.'
Dennis (agrees): That's Priscilla talking, not Dennis--
Heber: Dennis, I'm talking to Dennis, but I'm going to get this particular thing taken up about the NAZIS, you know, first of all our organization has exposed the fact a number of NAZI individuals involved in various organizations, running drugs into this country. And right now-- (Dennis interjects, unintelligible) -- You bet your life. And-- the National President of the National Association of the Chiefs of Police has, really, endorsed our information, because we have exposed those particular NAZI elements. And, you know Priscilla may remember, Margaret Singer is quoted as one of the, ah, key people, about various religions and so forth; Margaret Singer was, along with the Patron Saint of CAN, Mr. Lifton, attending a conference in 1978, and here's what CAN gets terribly terrified about: We expose the fact that those people were attending the German Union of Child Psychiatry, on religion--
Dennis: (exasperated) Come on, let's get back to Scientology!
Heber: Naww, let's finish it up here, we're talking about us, because we are doing social reform areas, and in that particular conference, uh, Singer was there, it was sponsored by the German Union of Child Psychiatry, and by one of these front groups for deprogramming. The German Union of Child Psychiatry had several interesting members, including Hildegard Hetzer, who ordered 25,000 children to their deaths! You see, out of that conference -- in, in the concentration camps -- and out of that conference.... Ah, if you're asleep, Priscilla, why don't you just, uh, you know, just lay over on the side, folks, she's falling asleep! The point was that we brought up that information, and, Singer, you know was involved in it; I think that the fact that *we* have exposed NAZIS is a terrible terrifying thing to these people.
Jane: (incredulous but perky) Are you claiming that Dennis is a NAZI?
[[Dennis cracks up]]
Heber: I-- No, Dennis claimed that, Dennis claimed that. I didn't claim Dennis is a NAZI. I claimed th--
Dennis: No, I claim that your *organization* is *as* fascist as the NAZIS were and as dangerous as the NAZIS were before they came to power, and I want to see to it that they *never*-- there never *is* a world that is ruled by Ethics Officers and the Sea Org, because if there is, it'll be just as fascist as Hitler would have made it. Thank you.
Jane: Let's take a telephone call before we continue this--
Heber: I think that people know me well enough to know that I have done more on that issue-- Dennis: People know that you lie! People know, Dennis, I have done more to handle that than you ever have-- Jane: All right-- (Heber shifts gears) And, I tell you what: You know I mean, here's the Law Enforcement News, on CAN, saying, you know, you people are really, uh, you know, something should be checked out about you--
Dennis: We're talking about Scientology, not CAN.
Heber: We're talking about both. You're here: you put your organization on the line.
Dennis: I'm not a part of CAN. Heber: You -- I'm just an individual who got Where do you live? raped spiritually by Scientology. Where do you live-- And there have been plenty of others Well, I will tell you-- who got raped too.
Heber (engages 4WD-Lo): There's *physical* rape by members of CAN! And, you can talk about spiritual rape, which is a rather subjective concept-- Dennis: It is! It's a very I think the Spiritual Rape of Man is subjective concept. done by Psychiatry, and you know that, and you know that I oppose that kind of *rape*, because we've exposed it.
Jane: All right, let's go to a telephone call here, from Jean, who is calling from Hacienda Heights, Jean, you're on KFI.
Caller: Hi.
Jane: Hi.
Heber: What a battle, huh? Here you are, Jean. (laughs)
Caller: Well, I'm not a former member of Scientology, but my mother was, and she spent about nine years in the organization, and after they milked her for just about every cent they could, she finally came to her senses, and left, and, uh--
Dennis: Good for her.
Caller: We're very, very pleased, yes, we really are. She was working and, um, my father had just died, and she had a home paid for, and they came in there, and managed to coerce her to take out a loan for the full amount, or, for whatever amount she could get it for, and uh they also signed her up for a bunch of classes, that she never took, and they have never yet paid her back the money--
Heber: Fine, then, if that Dennis: Yeah, that is a is true-- No-- problem, getting your money back. Wait a minute. If that's true, write me--
Caller: She has written, and written, Heber: Write to me-- and this is an interesting thing: Write to me-- Scientology does not accept any kind of certified mail, however they do *deliver* certified mail.
Heber: Well, write to me. I am telling you, if there's a problem there, write to me.
Priscilla: Do you accept certified mail, Heber?
Heber: I don't have to accept a certified mail, send me a regular letter, what's your problem, you know?
Caller: Oh, she sent many letters, she's been a legal secretary for many years, so her letters were [intact?] and they went to all the right people, and she got all kinds of letters back, we have, she now has an attorney handling it, because that was the only way to get any kind of--
Dennis: Yep, that's right, Heber: Fine, look-- I-- that's right. Fine. Listen, I tell you, if there's a problem you can write to me, and I appreciate that--
Priscilla: Jean, did you see the Time magazine article for May 6th?
Caller: [She's in the] --Time magazine article, ma'am.
Priscilla: Time magazine?
Caller: Yes she is.
Priscilla: Oh-- Oh, okay.
Jane: Her mom is in the Time magazine article. Why is it that I keep hearing these stories over and over again? These are unsolicited calls, these are people calling in -- Heber -- why do we hear the same story over and over again? That-- lots of money involved, and they-- once they leave the Churgh they can't seem to get a refund?
Heber: I mean, this is "everybody," and we've had three calls in the last hour and a half-- well, ahmm, I don't think that three calls is exemplary of the whole thing, I know that I have a number of friends out there who are Scientologists, because I've lived in here in Los Angeles, I don't know whether those lines are available to them, or whether your screener's keeping them out. I've had that happen on shows before and, uh-- Yeah, you laugh, Dennis--
Dennis: Yeah, the great conspiracy theory, that we've heard for so long. The government is conspiring against you... and, you know, everybody's against Scientology-- Heber: We stood up to The reason the government is against the IRS-- We-- you is because you're an illegal organization that engages in illegal acts. Period.
Heber: If we were an illegal organization, we wouldn't *be* here-- Dennis: That's right-- and you know that, because Scientology For-- for-- has stood up against the Internal Revenue Service for years, and we've *won* against them, we've *won* against other countries-- Dennis: You haven't won anything. --We have won in every single vector, because, *countries* have come up against us. *No* group has taken on the IRS like we have, and we have *won* against the Internal Revenue Service, Dennis: You're gonna and we will *continue* to win overthrow the government, against them-- I know, you guys are-- We're not gonna overthrow the That's what you're trying government, we're helping the to do-- government because we're solving the problems they have with *drugs*, and I tell you what, you can, you Dennis: (pronounces) can love the Internal Revenue The problem that Service for its criminal acts-- they have with drugs! And-- (glibly enquiring) Are you on drugs right now?
Dennis: (under his breath, croaks) ..God.
Jane: (perturbed) That was an unfair accusation--
Heber: No-- I said, *are* you. *Are* you. *Are* you.
Jane: (indignant) Well, he looks very lucid to me!
Heber: Well, *fine*, I just asked--
Priscilla: Maybe we should go to another call. Heber: (in background, TR-3-ing) Let's-- *Are* you? Dennis?
Jane: Yes, let's go to Jan, who's calling from Los Angeles-- (to Heber) I think that's an unfair question.
Caller: (launches) Yeah I thought the call screener *was* biased, seein' all these calls here. Every call's been anti-Scientology so far, and I don't think that's really very fair.
Jane: Well, you're on the air, aren't you?
Caller: Well, yeah, it's about time--
Jane: Well, speak up!
Caller: (ponderously) --I have a couple questions--
Jane: (not suffering fools gladly) Well, SPIT 'EM OUT! (snorts)
Caller: [I've heard] very good things about your drug program, and also I'd like to ask Heber, what is it like to be Clear?
Heber: Well, I tell you what it's like to be Clear, it's the first time, to come walking out, you know, and look at the world for the first time, and feel like, there is a wonderful world out there, that there are a great number of people out there who are wonderful people, and I've gained a great number of friends because of that, and I'll tell you, it's a feeling of looking to the future, knowing that I will go on, as a spiritual being, that I will live throughout eternity. That's what it's like, and feeling that it's a growing thing, an ascending thing, that uh there is *life*, that there is going to be a *future*, that there is going to be a created light of life and happiness and healthiness, that's what I feel it's like for me. And I'm glad somebody asked me that question, (chuckling) it's the first time I've been asked that on this radio show.
Jane: Also, she wanted to know about your drug program.
Heber: The drug rehabilitation programs, uh Scientology has sponsored NarCONon, which is a very successful drug rehabilitation program, which is by the way, is suported by various governments -- in Sweden, in Norway, ahh, is also supported that way in Italy, and it is supported now in Spain, and so forth. We have taken tens of thousands of people off of drugs -- by the way, who are not necessarily members of the Churgh. Its.. Just.. I have met with women whose sons lives were destroyed because they were on drugs. We have taken them off of drugs. We have the most effective drug rehabilitation programs in the world. And we are now working in Chilocco, Oklahoma, with the native Americans, to help them come off of drugs, where they have endemic situations out there.
Now, I tell you what, you know, all of this noise, all of this attack, all of this noise, is because we are effective, we take people off of drugs. Who gets hurt by 100,000 people coming off of drugs? Who gets hurt by a man who comes off of cocaine and heroin, who's making five robberies a day, to pay for that habit? And then increasing the police protection, and increasing all the other stuff that has to go on in the neighborhood. Who is hurt by that? I-- Only the people who are hurt, are the people who are pro-drugs. The only people are hurt who want to keep people in that particular situation. I will tell you, Scientology has tremendous programs, I have affidavit after affidavit, success stories by the millions, of people who have been helped by Scientology. All of this rhetoric, all of this noise--
Priscilla: Yes. All of this rhetoric.
Heber: (icily) All of this rhetoric from my opposition here, will not change the fact that Scientology is the road to total freedom. It will not change the fact that people are leavin-- living happier lives. Yes, we're attacked. I think all great religions were attacked. It hasn't been as bad as the Christians. They *killed* them. They threw them to the lions, you know? Those people had a horrible time. And they were, you know, burned by-- burned at the stake, and nailed to the Cross--
Dennis: Don't compare Hubbard with Jesus, *please*.
Heber: I would *never* compare him with Jesus--
Dennis: That's right--
Heber: --and, I think that's *horrible* that you brought that up, and he would be *appalled*, because he never wanted to be *put* in that position.
Jane: ...Tell me, Dennis, are Heber: Who *says* that? these programs helping people?
Dennis: No, they aren't, they create a dependency that is worse than the dependency on drugs, they create a dependency on Scientology.
Heber: Ahhh--
Dennis: And, the dependency on Scientology.. is a dependency that is really harder to break than a plain addiction to drugs.
Heber: Who said that?
Dennis: *I* just said it -- didn't you hear me?
Heber: (stammers) Uh, I originally heard it from Jolly West, but go ahead--
Dennis: I just said it, because I know. I ran the program at Flag, I know that it creates a dependency. The Purification rundown has no basis in scientific fact, they have yet to take any--
Heber interrupts: What's the dependency?-- What's the dependency?
Dennis: Hey-- wait, wait, I was asked a question, are you going to permit me to answer the question?
Jane: Please answer.
Heber: Yes. What's the dependency?
Dennis: Okay, the fact of the matter is that none of the programs, neither the Purification rundown nor any other thera-- quote therapy of Scientology has ever been demonstrated to work by the scientific method, and that's why-- that's why--
Heber: Ahhh, ah, okay--
Dennis: --It's all anecdotal. It's all anecdotal evidence, and the fact is that it's never been documented that any of this stuff works at all, except as a placebo cure.
Heber: You do not know--
Jane: Now, these drug cures you're talking about, are they done..
Priscilla: -- with no documentation. Heber: Hold it--
Jane: --are they done in your community only, or are they done in the general public, how does it work?
Heber: They are done in both places, and-- wait a minute-- Dennis: They are done in a closed Dennis, Dennis! environment, and don't just-- please, Hold on! don't 'Dennis' me! I have something Okay-- to say here too, we've listened to you. Now let me talk. Heber: Dennis-- No. You, you just made some charges, both of you. Of course, now I've been around the world and met with the people in those programs, which are by the way supported by governments. What you have found is that in those programs-- by the way, you've been gone for ten or fifteen years, I don't know how long, *but* there have been scientific studies done, to show that this does work--
Priscilla: They've been done by *their* people--
Heber: No. They've been done by other people who are not Scientologists-- Priscilla: By [Faze?], which is They've been done by other people-- the Scientology organization. Wait a minute! *Scientific*! If you wanna talk-- Priscilla: And it is simply Priscilla-- niacin, Priscilla-- vitamins, sauna, oil, and a Oh! (suddenly outraged) wee bit of exercise. You know, you don't want That's all it is. It makes you anyone coming off of drugs, sweat, but it doesn't do anything. do you! You - don't - want - anyone off of drugs, and that's the truth! Dennis: That's an absurd charge! You are *for* drugs! You are for that's the most absurd drug slavery and that is exactl-- thing I've ever heard! You want to destroy-- Can't you make sense, you want to destroy the spirit, come on, make sense, try you want to destroy anything to make sense! which works. Now, (calming self) I will make sense. The point-- I want to come back to this--
Jane: I would love to come back to this, after this break; this is KFI, AM 640.
[[Segment begins at 0:39 of file kfi8.rm]]
Jane: ...Heber, you were continuing....
Heber: --When you talk about something being scientific, if somebody gets up there on a hill and they make something called a wheel, no one's seen it before, and they say "Look, this thing rolls, and it goes down a hill, and it rolls round and round, and it's called a wheel." That can be proof that it works. When you take the fact that there's-- there are hundreds-- ah, like a hundred-thousand or more people who've come off of drugs. And those people are off of drugs very effectively, because, you see, there's something-- Dennis: You haven't got a hundred-thousand members. So, where are Heber: Well, ah, ah-- you know-- these hundred-thousand That's kind of interesting, you know, people who have come off because we have eight-million memberzz... drugs? The Boston Globe said, if there's only fifty-thousand members, how come.. there are (laughing) you know, how come there's so much attack on the Churgh of Scientology, You wouldn't care about it. Because--
Dennis: Because of the number of lawyers you have, not the number of members. Heber: Ahhhh-- Let's go back to-- Priscilla: And the way you spend We're-- your money attacking. and the We're handling-- private investigators you hire.
Heber: And they're effective, and that's why we're still alive and standing-- Dennis: I have a bunch There are a lot of people who are making of questions that-- benefit, from the use of that drug rehabilitation technology--
Priscilla: There are forty in Oklahoma. Forty patients.
Heber: At a time. Priscilla: That doesn't At a time, at a time. add up to very many-- And I talked to hundreds Because the courts only in Spain-- allow that many. And I talked to hundreds-- Yeah. I talked to hundreds over there in Spain-- Dennis: In Spain? Yes, in Spain-- Weren't you arrested in Spain recently?
Heber: (smooth roads fair weather) Oh, I was there two years ago. Were you involved in that? Anyway-- Dennis: I'm asking if you I-- were arrested, and for what? Well, I-- Isn't that a question? Can we get an answer to that? Heber: (blusters) Wh-hn. I was arrested, they let it go, Dennis: For what? they let me go, okay? Whuh. Let's just go back to this fact that-- Priscilla: It was referred to Huh? a higher court. What-- Jane: What was the charge? Heber: Being a Scientologist, was the charge, because they Dennis: No, that wasn't the charge. didn't have a warrant-- they didn't have a warrant with my name on it. They arrested a Priscilla: Falsification of-- whole bunch of people-- They arrested people for-- being Scientologists, they said anyone who is a foreigner-- No! Dennis: This goes back to your *I* *was* *there* Mis-ter Er-lich, conspiracy theory-- I was there! And I spoke with Mr. Hubbard's conspiracy theory-- these people who had come out of the mountains, who had been treated, and who had used narCONon, and come off of drugs, when all of the programs over there had failed. The psychiatrists were giving them more drugs, and they were claiming a two-to-three percent success rate, charging $30,000 to do it, and the people were going back onto drugs!
*We* had a success rate -- independent study, sociologically done, over there, which was done by the government, 72% to 78% success rate--
Priscilla: When narCONon was studied in Michigan--
Heber: No-NO! You guys Dennis: You claim whatever you want drugs! You guys want drugs! want-- That's absurd-- You are for it! You are trying That's absurd-- to destroy any drug program-- No-no-- Jane: Heber, give Dennis Dennis, you want drugs. a chance to respond-- Do you want people off of drugs? Do you want Dennis: That's totally absurd. them off of drugs?
Prozac is in there, IT'S A KILLER!! It is a psychiatric killer drug!
Jane: Heber, I'm gonna have to cut your microphone off, if you don't give him a chance to Heber: He won't-- respond! He won't talk about drugs.Dennis: I have a list of questions from former members, I run a group of former members, a sort of encounter group of former--
Jane: First, answer my question, what was the charge, in Spain?
Dennis: Ah, you know, I'm not even sure. Heber (triumphantly): -- You weren't even there. I'm not sure.
Priscilla: Falsification of records, coercion, capital flight; they called it a pure and simple charlatanism.
Jane: All right. You have-- Heber: And obviously the I will allow you to ask *one* judge said, "Mr.Jentzch you question-- Give it your best shot-- can go," because there was no evidence, so they let it-- Priscilla: You told him your mother was dying, Heber, you made up another story.
Heber: **YOU!!**
[[ the tone of pure shock in Heber's voice, at Being Found Out, cannot be rendered in ASCII. It rings, it echoes. Rage and terror.]]
Dennis: Whoa, listen to this. Heber: Naw. [[others boggle]] That is-- The louder he talks, the more truth, That is-- Hold on! right?
Heber: You talk about my mother that way? That tells me exactly what you're like! You talk about my mother that way, and you say that you love these people? You talk about my mother that way? I am angry about that! Because, my mother *was* dying, and my mother *is* very ill, and has been for some time. You talk about that? That's the kind of person you are! I have *no* support for you, I am angry about that! And you, Dennis, if you join with that, just-- That's the kind of thing you people support! That is absolutely unconscionable! You talk about my mother that way, Priscilla? (growling) How do you feel about people?
Jane: Dennis, ask your question.
Dennis: Umm..(sighs) Heber: No, I-- I-- I-- Jane: Hold on, Heber, let him ask his question. Heber: Do you think that's okay? You-- Heber, you have You're the moderator, do you think been dominating this conver- that's okay? Do you think it's okay? sation since you walked into -- this studio. I think that But, do you think it's okay? you oughtta calm down, and give them a chance to respond.
Heber: I don't like that being said about my mother. *She* said that, do you think it's okay?
Jane: You're turning this into a major issue! Heber: I am *furious* about that! I think what you do-- I am *furious* about it! --is take the-- You can laugh about it-- That's my mother! [[The others are chuckling at Heber's adroit use of Scientology, to turn the subject away from his arrest in Spain. Dennis begins to explain...]]
Dennis: He takes control of the-- Heber: No.
Jane: I think what you do is take an issue and turn it into-- if it's-- Heber: She said that! something you don't want to answer, you will not answer, and you create an issue.
Dennis: (murmers) Exactly. Exactly.
Heber: Every American out there who thinks it's okay to say that about somebody's mother, fine. Join these people, (the growling tone again) I don't think you do.
Dennis: Can I ask my question?
Jane: Please ask your question.
Dennis: This question is directed from a group of ex-scientologists, and it's a sincere question. We went through hours and hours of confessionals, and all of our, quote, sins, are written down in folders, and some people have stacks of folders like ten feet tall. We would like our folders *back* from these people, because they can use it against us.
Jane: That's your best question? (laughing) That's your best question?
Dennis: And-- when will our-- confessional folders be returned to us, and how?
Jane: Heber.
Heber: Is that in your request? I mean, I don't know what he's talking about. Dennis: No, he doen't know No, I tell you what we'll do, Dennis, what he's talking about-- -- "Send in my request." No-no. Send in your request-- Oh, thank you-- You come with us, we'll shred them in front of you.
No-no, that's his *best question*. And you think we-- that's bad? Well shred your folders
[[Segment begins at 4:38 of file kfi9.rm]]
Jane: Let's go... to John who's calling from San Diego; John, you're on KFI.
Caller: Hi.
Heber: Hi, John.
Caller: I have one question, one question only, and I'd like a straight answer to it...
Heber: (Jumping in at the head of the line, bracing) Okay...
Caller: ...I would like someone to describe the process of exorcism, uh, Dennis really never finished.
Dennis: Yeah, I would *like* to talk about that.
Heber: (Interrupting) Well, you can pick it up in Dianetics, Modern Science of Mental Health.. (Dennis sighs heavily).. and what it does is deal with the mental image pictures that a person has and it can deal with a person's past going back into his past life.
Dennis: (Cutting back in) It's got nothing to do with that.
Heber: Well, it *does* have everything to do with it and you Dennis: It doesn't have *know* that. Dianetics Modern anything to do with that. Science Dennis: [to the caller] of Mental Health -- Do you want an answer or do you want to hear what Dianetics, Dianetics -- the propaganda front is? Dianetics Modern Science of Caller: I would like an Mental Health has an answer answer from Dennis. to that --
Dennis: Okay, well I'll and Dennis knows that Dianetics give you one. has the answer to it.
Dennis: He's blocking. He's blocking!
Heber: I am not blocking that! [to caller] You know, you're sitting here, John....
Caller: Could I have my answer please?
Dennis: I would like to answer, but he won't stop -- Jane: Well, this is the second
time it's come up, and
[exasperated]Heber: [sardonically] Suure -- neither time have we gotten an answer! Yaknow -- Look -- Caller: I heard the other answer, Heber: I am not here to I'd like to hear Dennis'. discuss the religion of Scientology -- Dennis: I'd love to answer but Heber won't stop talking. Heber: [insistently] That's the thing, Dennis, Dennis . . . you won't stop to let me --
Dennis: This is the technique that he drills before he comes on an interview like this so he won't have to answer a question.
Heber: [Very loudly] Oh! Give me a break, Dennis! Come on! You know better than that! [You were in for] fifteen years --
Jane: Why won't you let him answer the caller?
Caller: Could I have Dennis' answer please? Dennis' answer?
Heber: *I said* that Dianetics Modern Science of Mental Health has an answer to it.
Jane: Now there are three of us asking -- let him answer -- All right.
[Heber's mike is cut]
Jane: Okay. There ya go.
Heber: All right, cut me off --
Jane: Well? You won't stop!
Dennis: Okay, now I can answer? (chuckling) That's great. That's great, thank you very much. The exorcism process Hubbard describes -- that... the individual has ended up, over the process of millions and millions of years, plagued by thousands and thousands of entities -- besides himself -- that are occupying his body. These entities speak to him and give him messages which are his...reactive mind, they call it. [[Heber bursts in]]
Heber: Well, she cut off my microph-- [[Evidently, Priscilla Coates Hey! Get your hands offa me! attempts to restrain Heber, who You get your hands offa me! grows instantly furious. You keep your hands offa me! Others are chortling at the spectacle.]] Jane: Let it go, Heber, we don't want to start a fight!
Heber: I'm not gonna start a fight, [Priscilla says, "Is this but if she puts her hands on-- I don't any way to treat a lady?"] care if you are -- you call yourself a lady, you know -- you better *watch it*, Dennis: Look at this Priscilla! [palpable menace] Wouldn't technique.... be the first time! No, I mean my microphone's cut off, I'll just -- Priscilla: Why don't we describe what's happening.
Heber: ("reporting") My microphone has been cut off, and I'm standing here next to Dennis talking...
Dennis: This is the kind of Heber: Well... because I don't thing that really -- feel my microphone should be cut off!
Caller: It seems pretty clear that he doesn't want you to answer.
Dennis: No, he definitely doesn't want me to answer... Heber: "I tell you what... This is a serious thing to him, You people... you people have... that I'm talking about exorcism, I think that, you know... but that's what Scientology is about your -- actually about... that's exactly [resumes shouting] what Scientology is about -- Because you love drugs don't you! the.. exorcism process is.. You think drugs is a wonderful thing, don't you! (giggles) Listen to this... You love drugs, don't you Dennis! Dennis, you love drugs, don't you, huh? You love drugs. And you hate us because we take people off of drugs. [querulously] Are you on drugs Caller: This is pretty cool, though. right now Dennis? Dennis. (demanding) What are you on? What are you on, Dennis?
[Dennis' microphone cut off by host]
Jane: All right, we're gonna take a break -- here on KFI.
[[Heber can be heard continuing to argue, in the background]]:
Heber: [All I can do is] stand over here and talk, you know? That's all I can do! You know?
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