As for the details of this or its enforcability, I have no further details.
Other third-hand reports indicate that the MFC and other onlookers cheered
when the judge left the court, but the cult lawyers just looked solemn and
silent. - Rob Clark
I just heard on irc that the result of the TRO hearing was that Minton was
required to stay 10 feet away from the cult, and the cult was required to
stay *20* feet away from Minton.
IN THE CIRCUIT COURT IN AND FOR PINELLAS COUNTY, FLORIDA
CASE NO. 99-7430-CI-8
RICHARD W. HOWD, JR. :
ROBERT S. MINTON, JR. :
BEFORE: THE HONORABLE THOMAS PENICK, JR.
CIRCUIT COURT JUDGE
PLACE: ST. PETERSBURG JUDICIAL BUILDING
545 - First Avenue North
St. Petersburg, Florida 33701
DATE: November 29, 1999
TIME: 12:00 - 9:00 p.m.
REPORTED BY: DONNA M. ANDERSON, RPR
SIXTH JUDICIAL CIRCUIT
NOTARY PUBLIC, STATE OF FLORIDA
RETURN ON TEMPORARY INJUNCTION FOR PROTECTION AGAINST
HARASSMENT AND VIOLENCE
Pages 1 - 198
ROBERT A. DEMPSTER & ASSOCIATES
P.O. BOX 35
CLEARWATER, FLORIDA 34617-0035
A P P E A R A N C E S
Attorney for Petitioner:
Paul B. Johnson, Esquire
112 S. Magnolia Avenue
Tampa, Florida 33606
Michael Hertzberg, Esquire
New York, New York 10003
Attorney for Respondent:
Denis Devlaming, Esquire
Douglas Devlaming, Esquire
1101 Turner Street
Clearwater, Florida 34616-4105
Bruce G. Howie, Esquire
5720 Central Avenue
St. Petersburg, Florida 33707
1 P R O C E E D I N G S
2 THE COURT: We're here In Re the matter
3 of Richard W. Howd, Jr. vs. Robert
4 S. Minton, Jr. Case is 99-7430-CI-O08. And
5 this is a return on the temporary injunction
6 for protection against harassment and
7 violence. Are we ready to proceed?
8 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, there's a
9 couple of housekeeping matters I'd like to
10 present to Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: Okay, well hold on just a
12 moment. Mr. Devlaming, other than
13 housekeeping your client is ready?
14 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: We're ready.
15 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Yes, Your
17 THE COURT: Okay. Yes, housekeeping.
18 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, last time, as
19 you recall, we both announced we had our
20 First Amendment specialists, and I
21 introduced mine as Mr. Mike Hertzberg from
22 New York. And we filed a formal motion pro
23 hoc viche for him to appear, and also a
24 notice of appearance. I've shown counsel a
25 copy of it and they have no objection.
1 THE COURT: Everything appears to be in
3 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: We have no
5 THE COURT: Okay, fine. Bring it up
7 MR. JOHNSON: One other housekeeping
8 matter. Counsel has just had an agreement.
9 We learned on the Internet that there were a
10 number of photographs taken at the last
11 hearing of myself, my co-counsel, and my
12 client, and a narrative of what went on was
13 taken. Many of the photographs were taken
14 from counsel table.
15 I discovered it recently and I called
16 it to Mr. Devlaming's attention and he has
17 instructed his client that under the rules
18 photographs are not to be taken.
19 THE COURT: Photographs from -- wait a
20 minute. What's this about? I didn't see
21 any camera by the defendant at the time.
22 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: It was before the
23 Court took the bench. Court was not in
24 session when the photographs were taken.
25 And I told Mr. Johnson that would not occur
1 again. There were some taken this morning
2 before the Court took the bench. The person
3 that took them, I said no more photographs,
4 and she indicated that the bailiff had said
5 it's okay before the Court takes the bench.
6 But we're not going to have anymore taken at
8 MR. JOHNSON: I want to make sure
9 there's no recordings being made that might
10 be made at counsel bench.
11 THE COURT: I understand what you all
12 are saying. But when you all are talking
13 about cameras and you're talking about
14 recordings, I understand by parties and by
15 people other than the media. I want this
16 clear that I'm not excluding or doing
17 anything with the media as far as that's
18 concerned at this time, and this is an open
19 court proceeding, and I'm not going to go
20 back and revisit the St. Petersburg Times
21 vs. Penick, but that is landmark law on open
23 MR. JOHNSON: I have no objection to
25 THE COURT: I mean, you only have to
1 sue me once. It's an open court. All
2 right? I mean, they may be taking things
3 down and there may be cameras running. But
4 the media, yes. And when I'm saying
5 "media", all the media, you all have cards
6 or something to identify yourselves. If you
7 don't, give one real quick in case something
8 comes up and I have to start checking, okay?
9 But other than that: They, yes. Other
10 people, no. Unless you talk to the
12 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Right.
13 THE COURT: Okay. That's what I just
14 want to be sure. Okay. Oh, I tell you
15 what. Mr. Johnson, do I have an order or
16 something I can sign? Or let the record be
17 clear that I have granted his appearance pro
18 hoc v. and that an order will be
19 forthcoming. We'll nunc pro tunc it today
20 to cover any arguments he should make today.
21 MR. JOHNSON: I will submit it
22 tomorrow, Your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Any objection.
24 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: No.
25 MR. JOHNSON: May I also suggest that
page page 7
1 it may be helpful to the Court if we have an
2 opening statement by each side as to what
3 the boundaries and parameters of this
4 hearing is and also what we hope to show
5 during the hearing.
6 THE COURT: Okay. Well, procedural
7 point. This is a return hearing on their
9 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir.
10 THE COURT: Okay. Who has the burden?
11 MR. JOHNSON: I think I have the
13 THE COURT: All right. And are you
14 asking to -- basically, where I'm going with
15 this, Mr. Johnson, is this is a on a
16 temporary. Are you asking for a permanent?
17 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. We ask for
18 that in our petition. And I understood
19 that's the purpose for this hearing today.
20 THE COURT: Okay. And Mr. Devlaming or
21 the Devlamings, you all have had adequate
23 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: We've had
24 adequate notice. Judge, you should know as
25 Mr. Howie announced, we have filed, and I
1 don't know if the Court has had an
2 opportunity --
3 THE COURT: I got a copy.
4 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: All right, to
5 modify the injunction and the relief sought
7 THE COURT: Now hold on, Mr. Devlaming.
8 I guess it's back on my desk, but I have
9 received a document from Mr. Howie. I got
10 it last week. Okay? I'm ready to proceed.
11 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, please I'd
12 like to request that Mr. Hertzberg briefly
13 address the Court concerning the parameters
14 of this case.
15 THE COURT: All right. He may.
16 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, I've had
17 occasion to review the -- and study the
18 pleading that was filed on the eve of
19 Thanksgiving by opposing counsel, which Your
20 Honor has stated that you have also had an
21 opportunity to look at, and in particular
22 their motion to modify the injunction that
23 we have to now. And I think I have some
24 good news to report to the Court, because I
25 think everybody's interested in keeping this
page page 9
1 proceeding on and narrow a path as required.
2 And that there is actually less in disputed
3 as I read opposing counsel's papers that may
4 at first blush appear about what the
5 parameters of what a permanent injunction
6 should be.
7 And in particular I want to direct Your
8 Honor's attention to Page 8 of the papers
9 that were filed on behalf of the Respondent,
10 Mr. Minton. Paragraph No. 2, they seek
11 modification of several aspects of the
12 temporary injunction previously ordered by
13 Your Honor. And they start laying it out at
14 the is he bottom of Page 7 following the
15 wherefor clause and moving on it Page 8.
16 And the most significant thing in my
17 view, and I think there is a common ground
18 here to keep these proceedings concise, is
19 that they are willing to agree that there
20 should be a permanent injunction with
21 language should be effective they put in
22 Paragraph 2, which is in sum that the
23 Respondent, Mr. Minton will not have
24 intentional, willful, physical contact with
25 the Petitioner, that's Mr. Howd, the staff
1 and parishioners of the Church of
2 Scientology and the Respondent, again,
3 Mr. Minton, not harass or commit acts of
4 violence against these same persons.
5 We feel that that is a proper -- the
6 precise language would have to be worded,
7 worked out in the final order. But we're
8 not going to oppose that kind of relief.
9 That's part of what we want.
10 They also ask for the recision of the
11 150-yard provision. That is going to be a
12 contested issue here. We believe that when
13 the proof is adduced in this case, which
14 will be what was previously before this
15 Court when the preliminary injunction was
16 ordered, and we're going to amplify on that
17 today, we feel that this Court will have an
18 ample basis to conclude that Mr. Minton has
19 made threats on the Internet and elsewhere
20 against church of Scientology's ecclesiastic
21 leaders, against parishioners of the church;
22 that the threats have to be viewed extremely
23 seriously by this Court as they would be by
24 anybody including the people who they're
25 directed against; and that, in fact,
page page 11
1 Mr. Minton has on two occasions, most
2 recently the one in Clearwater which brings
3 us here today, been arrested and charged
4 with assault.
5 And therefore he has a proclivity for
6 violence. And in the general context, and
7 I'm not going to -- obviously you're going
8 to hear the evidence and I'm not going into
9 all the evidence now. But suffice it to say
10 that we believe that we will be able to
11 argue to Your Honor at the conclusion of
12 these proceedings that our evidence
13 justifies keeping the physical distance
14 limitation that applies to Mr. Minton
15 currently in place.
16 They want to get rid of it the
17 completely, as I read their papers. If they
18 don't, if they think that there's some
19 alternative distance that can be maintained
20 that is satisfactory, they haven't indicated
21 so in their papers. So I'm assuming at the
22 moment that they're talking about taking it
23 away completely. We're opposed to that, and
24 that will be a contested issue.
25 They also ask that the language that's
1 in the preliminary injunction at Paragraph 2
2 of the preliminary injunction now that
3 Mr. Minton is ordered to stay away, that's
4 the phrase in the injunction, from the
5 church, members from the Petitioner,
6 Mr. Howd and others, that that language be
7 rescinded because they say it's too vague
8 and too difficult, the stay away part.
9 If we get the language that they have
10 conceded and acknowledged that they can live
11 with in the Paragraph 2 of their
12 presentation, and if we get a physical
13 limitation as well, which they're trying to
14 eliminate, we will have -- we will agree
15 that the stay away language, which is
16 presently in Paragraph 2, can be dispensed
17 with, because we think that the other two
18 provision will serve the same purpose and
19 will be more precisely worded and nobody
20 would have a problem with that.
21 Lastly, Your Honor, I just wanted to
22 forecast, although I think that when
23 Mr. Johnson is putting the evidence on,
24 maybe the actual disputes will be more
25 sharpened and will be dealt with in an
page page 13
1 evidentiary capacity by Your Honor at the
2 time, but I would like to indicate that
3 their papers forecast that they want to
4 present evidence of events that purportedly
5 happened in California, I think, when
6 Mr. Minton wasn't even present. They want
7 to talk about how he has been somehow would
8 be impeded from using a property that they
9 now say -- they say he has contracted to
10 purchase property in Clearwater.
11 Now Your Honor will recall that the
12 last time we were in Court, the
13 plaintiff's -- Respondent's counsel made a
14 categorical representation to this Court
15 that there were going to be problems here
16 with the injunction because Mr. Minton had
17 purchased a property in Downtown Clearwater,
18 which he was going to use for certain
19 purposes. I believe they are no longer
20 maintaining that that was an accurate
21 statement at the time that it was made.
22 They'll clarify. But certainly they're
23 certainly not saying that in their papers
25 And I would suggest to Your Honor that
1 this can be dealt with if and when it comes
2 up in an evidentiary sense. I think that
3 it's a red herring on several levels. First
4 of all, if he has not purchased the
5 property, then it's not ripe for this Court
6 even to take that into consideration. If
7 and when someday that that transaction
8 occurs, perhaps Mr. Minton could make an
9 application to address that at that time.
10 But I don't think it need deter us now.
11 And in any event, notwithstanding
12 whatever status that purchase or
13 non-purchase has at the moment, again to
14 reiterate, we are in agreement with the
15 alternative language that they have proposed
16 on paragraph -- numbered Paragraph 2, Page 8
17 of their filing.
18 Lastly, Your Honor, before I sit down,
19 they apparently are seeking in the -- I
20 guess in the guise of their motion to
21 modify, they also out of the blue now they
22 say they want some injunctive relief. And
23 they want it in a very broad sense against
24 all Scientologists out there. I would
25 suggest to Your Honor procedurally that's
page page 15
1 not the issue before the Court today. We
2 are here today on Mr. Howd, the Petitioner's
3 petition. That's what was set on the
4 calendar today. We believe that's the only
5 issue that should be addressed by this
6 Court. Mr. Howd is the Petitioner. We
7 should not lose sight of that. The acts
8 that you hear are threats directed
9 against -- an incident in which Mr. Howd
10 ended up being taken to the hospital. There
11 was an arrest that ensued.
12 I would suggest to the Court that if we
13 get into some kind of counter-application
14 for a temporary restraining order or other
15 relief by the other side we will multiply
16 these proceedings infinitely and we will
17 complicate them infinitely, that the
18 straight narrow issue, and the only
19 permissible one, procedurally and otherwise
20 before this case (sic) today, is our
21 original petition. Thank you, Your Honor.
22 MR. HOWIE: May I proceed, sir?
23 THE COURT: Yes, you may.
24 MR. HOWIE: Concerning our motion for
25 modification of the injunction, the Court is
1 well aware of the premises on which this
2 injunction was granted. We see two issues
3 here. The first issue is Mr. Howd and his
4 ability to get the injunction. And the
5 second issue is the First Amendment rights
6 of Mr. Minton, the Respondent. We want the
7 Court -- we ask the Court to take a
8 balancing approach on the interests that are
9 involved here. That goes to the very
10 essence of the equitable nature of the
12 One of the things the Court needs to be
13 concerned about is the public interest in
14 knowing about the issues that are connected
15 with the Respondent's efforts to make his
16 own position known to the public.
17 Mr. Minton wishes to reserve his First
18 Amendment rights, his right to use a
19 traditional public forum, the sidewalks of
20 the city of Clearwater, in order to make his
21 position public in an effective manner, in a
22 manner that allows the public in turn to
23 receive that message.
24 We need, of course, to be concerned
25 about balancing of rights any time the Court
page page 17
1 does equity in these situations. And that
2 is the basis of our second request, which is
3 an effort to issue an order from this Court
4 that deals not merely in a patchwork fashion
5 with the issue that arose on October 31, but
6 to avoid the very multiplicity of litigation
7 that Mr. Hertzberg just spoke of so that
8 everyone knows what the situation is and how
9 the situation can be handled by the Court if
10 the problem arises.
11 Mr. Hertzberg indicated that this was
12 Mr. Howd's petition. But I would submit to
13 the Court that Mr. Howd appears to be acting
14 on behalf of the Church of Scientology. We
15 don't really take issue with that. And the
16 reason we don't take issue with that is
17 because it allows us to present the larger
18 picture of what this cases is about. It is
19 not just Mr. Minton and Mr. Howd, it is
20 Mr. Minton and his position in the Church of
21 Scientology, their position and their rights
22 under the First Amendment as well. And it's
23 that balancing of interests that we're
24 trying to effect.
25 THE COURT: Mr. Howie, I want to be
1 sure I understand something. I apologize
2 for interrupting you, but you touched on
3 something that got my attention, and I
4 thought we needed to address it. Do I
5 understand you correctly that you are
6 recognizing, then, that this is not
7 Richard W. Howd, H-O-W-D, Jr. as an
8 individual as much as you're talking about
9 the Church of Scientology or both?
10 MR. HOWIE: Let me put it this way,
11 Your Honor, to answer your question.
12 THE COURT: Because this takes on a
13 different perspective if this is just two
15 MR. HOWIE: That's just it. We don't
16 think that is case about two individuals. I
17 think Mr. Howd, in the way he formulated his
18 petition, made that clear. Otherwise,
19 Mr. Howd would not be asking the Court to
20 enjoin Mr. Minton from the 17 locations of
21 Downtown Clearwater where he does not aver
22 any kind of property interest in those 17
24 THE COURT: Okay. Well that's what I
25 wanted to be sure up front. Okay.
page page 19
1 MR. HOWIE: And we are setting aside
2 any of the normal objections we would have
3 concerning Mr. Howd's legal standing to ask
4 the Court to keep an injunction. It is
5 clear what this case is about from the very
6 nature of his temporary injunction request.
7 THE COURT: Okay. Now you are then
8 basically telling me that you recognize that
9 Mr. Howd is an agent of the church, or at
10 least they're one in the same?
11 MR. HOWIE: For purposes of our own
12 request for relief, yes.
13 THE COURT: All right.
14 MR. HOWIE: For that limited purpose.
15 Otherwise, we could just go forward
16 attacking the injunction on the basis of the
17 elements of the injunction.
18 THE COURT: Okay. Well that's what I
19 wanted to be sure of here is what we had.
20 MR. HOWIE: Concerning both his
21 standing, his right to a remedy at law, the
22 irreparable injury that he's alleging and so
23 on. We are setting those considerations
24 aside so that the Court can forge an order
25 that will address the entire situation and
1 not one single incident that occurred on
2 October 31.
3 THE COURT: Okay.
4 MR. HOWIE: Now Mr. Howd in his
5 petition alleges these events on October 31
6 and alleges that he was placed in fear as a
8 THE COURT: Just a moment. Hold it
9 right there. Mr. Bailiff? No beepers, no
10 cell phones in this courtroom. Would you
11 take that one into possession please and
12 hold it until the end of this hearing?
13 THE BAILIFF: Yes, Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Let me make this real clear
15 right now. No beepers, no cell phones. Get
16 it back at the end of the hearing. You may
17 proceed, sir.
18 MR. HOWIE: Thank you, Your Honor.
19 Mr. Howd in his petition indicates that he
20 was placed in fear or fears harm from the
21 Respondent. And that's the grounds for his
22 injunction. I would simply point out that
23 in the course of this proceeding we are
24 prepared to present evidence to the Court
25 that, in fact, Mr. Howd was well aware of
1 those facts that he avers in his petition
2 prior to this confrontation on October 31.
3 He was aware of prior incidents and he was
4 aware of certain postings on the Internet by
5 the Respondent. And yet he behaved in a
6 fashion that we will present evidence of
7 towards the Respondent by placing himself in
8 direct physical proximity to the Respondent
9 even at times barring the Respondent's way
10 on the night in question.
11 Mr. Hertzberg questioned the relevancy
12 of this information and evidence. In fact,
13 we contend that it's highly relevant to
14 demonstrate to the Court what exactly is
15 going on, what exactly the tactics were that
16 were exercised by Mr. Howd on the night in
17 question to show the Court that this is an
18 ongoing pattern of behavior and tactics by
19 members of the Church of Scientology as a
20 means of barring Mr. Minton from placarding
21 or from picketing certain locations.
22 This goes to the very nature of the
23 injunction since it concerns their
24 foreknowledge concerning his activities and
25 their own responsibility and contribution to
1 the actions that they complain of. It would
2 also assist the Court in understanding
3 better how to create an injunction in this
4 case that will work.
5 Concerning the injunctive order of the
6 Court, keeping the Respondent at least 150
7 yards from all of the designated location,
8 we understand that this will be contended.
9 However, we plan to present both evidence
10 and legal argument that such a distance
11 unduly burdens Mr. Minton's right to the
12 exercise of free speech. And we would cite
13 two cases, including U.S. Supreme Court
14 cases where, in fact, such a distance or
15 even a lesser distance was struck down as
16 unduly burdensome in the exercise of free
17 speech. The Court may already be aware of
18 such cases involving protesters at women's
20 Setting aside any concern about the
21 failure to plead irreparable harm, we would
22 also point out our concern that this
23 injunction is being used as a means to
24 prevent future alleged criminal conduct or
25 unlawful conduct. This is not exactly the
1 proper application of an equitable remedy
2 such as injunction. We would be prepared to
3 argue that, in fact, they are attempting to
4 enjoin what they call -- what could be
5 called future criminal behavior, which is
6 not, in fact, the function of an injunction.
7 In order to understand this case fully
8 we need to be able to present the Court with
9 certain videotapes concerning similar
10 confrontations as well as this confrontation
11 so the Court will understand the pattern and
12 what needs to be addressed in the injunction
13 order. This is why we are asking the Court
14 to modify the injunction. First, to
15 eliminate the 150-yard restriction, which
16 again, is unduly burdensome of his First
17 Amendment rights, and to modify the
18 temporary injunction as Mr. Hertzberg
19 addressed, avoid any intentional or willful
20 physical contact between the Respondent and
21 the Petitioner, but at the same time to
22 enjoin members of the Church of Scientology,
23 including Mr. Howd, but not limited to
24 Mr. Howd, from placing themselves in such a
25 way as to be a physical bar to his progress
1 when is attempting to picket these locations
2 and not to harass or commit acts of violence
3 against him, just as he is not to
4 commit -- harass or commit acts of violence
5 against them.
6 It is my understanding that the
7 Petitioner does not want the Court to
8 proceed to what amounts to our own request
9 for injunctive relief. I have two responses
10 to that. First, it's really a matter of
11 doing equity in this case and balancing
12 interests: The First Amendment interests of
13 both the Church of Scientology and
14 Mr. Minton. And in order to effect that
15 balance, if Mr. Howd comes in here on behalf
16 of the Church of Scientology, necessarily
17 certain restrictions must apply to their
18 behavior so that Mr. Minton can comply with
19 an order of this Court.
20 Second, on a more procedural note, the
21 Petitioner is concerned that we are asking
22 for an injunction without having presented
23 the Court with an affidavit. Rule 1.610,
24 although it speaks of affidavits, does not
25 necessarily require affidavits where, in
1 fact, we are in a position to present
2 evidence and testimony pertaining to our own
3 request. This evidence and information
4 would not come as a surprise to Petitioner
5 or his counsel, and we ask the Court for the
6 opportunity to present such evidence today
7 so that, again, the Court is fully advised
8 on all the premises and can issue an order
9 which does equity in this case.
10 THE COURT: Thank you.
11 MR. HERTZBERG: Your Honor, since we
12 have the burden of going forward, may I just
13 very briefly respond? On the issue of First
14 Amendment protection, for protection of
15 Mr. Minton's purported First Amendment
16 activities clearly, and I've not made the
17 full argument about the law because I assume
18 Your Honor would want to hear that at the
19 end after the evidences is presented.
20 THE COURT: Yes, sir.
21 MR. HERTZBERG: So I will only note in
22 passing that assaulting people is not a
23 First Amendment protected activity. And
24 making threats, the United States Supreme
25 Court has said, making the kind of threats
1 that we will prove have been made on the
2 Internet is not First Amendment protected
3 activity. So I just want to, for the
4 moment, make sure that we are
5 focusing -- we're not blanketing or
6 counsel's not suggesting that all of
7 Mr. Minton's activities are protected by the
8 First Amendment. Because, Your Honor, will
9 have ample opportunity to see that the kind
10 of activities which he's engaged in which
11 culminated on the assault on the Petitioner
12 are not protected in any fashion by the
13 First Amendment.
14 As far as burdening Mr. Minton in his
15 efforts to get his message out, I suggest to
16 Your Honor that if we have a final
17 injunction which incorporates the language
18 that the opposing side says they're willing
19 to agree to and with the proviso that there
20 be a physical delimitation, it will not
21 burden any lawful -- future lawful protests
22 or picketing that Mr. Minton may want to
23 engage in, assuming he doesn't hit anybody
24 else. But it will not burden him. He's
25 very adept at giving media interviews, being
1 on television, talking to the Press. And he
2 can hold his signs and chant what he wants
3 to chant, but we would maintain at a
5 And in the cases that we will cite at
6 the conclusion of this proceeding you will
7 see that the Courts, including at my learned
8 adversary, has mentioned that the courts
9 find that they can draw the line and prevent
10 the kind of violence that has already
11 occurred by having a physical barrier, a
12 physical delimitation. And we're not
13 talking about banning, by the way, anybody
14 else; we're only talking about Mr. Minton.
15 There are plenty of people that also
16 come, that may want to come, and they may it
17 please the to talk, and they may want to say
18 what they're entitled to say under the First
19 Amendment, and they're not implicated in
20 this proceeding at all. We're talking about
21 one individual whom we maintain has
22 forfeited his right for the moment to engage
23 on the same level of First Amendment
24 activities as others because of the threats
25 and because of the violence.
1 Now on this issue about whether other
2 Scientologists besides the Petitioner can be
3 protected, the issue, Your Honor, is a very
4 straightforward one. This is, and I meant
5 it, this is Mr. Howd's petition. He is the
6 Petitioner. But Your Honor, as the judicial
7 officer here, is entitled to protect all
8 Scientologists. Because what good would it
9 do if the protection were only limited to
10 Mr. Howd in this instance and the next time
11 Mr. Minton decided to assault someone else?
12 Then we'd be back here and you'd issue an
13 order that he has to stay a distance away
14 from -- and not assault the other person. I
15 mean -- Your Honor, I think, understands --
16 THE COURT: Mr. Hertzberg, that's what
17 I was making reference to earlier. This
18 could go on ad infinitum.
19 MR. HERTZBERG: Sure.
20 THE COURT: And I think --
21 MR. HERTZBERG: Sure. And the threats,
22 by the way, the Internet threats, were made
23 against others. They're general. So
24 Mr. Howd does not come here as an agent.
25 He's not an agent here. He's not legally
1 binding anybody in the church. He comes on
2 his own. But Your Honor will find, I
3 believe on the evidence, and we'll revisit
4 it at the conclusion, that there's a
5 significant governmental interest which Your
6 Honor can effectuate through permanent
7 relief that will be served by keeping
8 certain restrictions on Mr. Minton, some of
9 which already are not contested and one of
10 which really is.
11 And lastly, on the -- and I will sit
12 down, the comments by Mr. Howie about their
13 need to be forward. Your Honor, there has
14 been no allegation and they don't make one
15 in their papers that any Scientologists,
16 much less the Petitioner, ever hit
17 Mr. Minton. No Scientologist has ever been
18 arrested in connection with any events
19 surrounding Mr. Minton.
20 And I would submit to Your Honor that
21 this is -- leaving aside the procedural
22 irregularity of their attempt to modify the
23 injunction by bringing a whole new
24 counter-injunction proceeding within this
25 proceeding, and leaving aside the extreme
1 complications that that would cause in terms
2 of evidentiary rulings and the length of
3 these proceedings and perhaps other counsel
4 having to come in to represent others who
5 would be bound by the proposed
6 counter-injunction that they're suggesting,
7 I would suggest to Your Honor the record is
9 They don't say Mr. Howd hit Mr. Minton
10 and they don't, in fact, say any
11 Scientologists has ever done it. And I
12 would submit to Your Honor that we take this
13 one step at a time, and the one step that we
14 need it take now, and I know Mr. Johnson is
15 itching to get ready with the presentation,
16 is what the terms of the permanent
17 injunction are that the Petitioner is able
18 to receive as leave for this Court because
19 of the actions of this gentleman. Thank
21 THE COURT: Ready to proceed?
22 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Yes, sir.
23 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. Your Honor,
24 Petitioner would like to invoke the --
25 THE COURT: Rule? Invoke the rule?
1 MR. JOHNSON: -- rule in this case.
2 THE COURT: All right. All of the
3 witnesses for either side other than the
4 parties, anybody that's going to be a
5 perspective witness, would you come forward?
6 I'll swear you in at this time, please. If
7 you all would just sort of line up across
8 here and I'll swear you all in.
9 WHEREUPON, ALL PERSPECTIVE WITNESSES WERE PLACED
10 UNDER OATH.)
11 THE COURT: All right. Now ladies and
12 gentlemen put your hands down. I'm going to
13 ask you to wait outside until you're called
14 in to testify. And while you're waiting
15 outside, please do not discuss this case or
16 anything to do with this case among
17 yourselves or with anybody else. You can
18 talk about anything else. That's fine. But
19 just not this particular case.
20 Somebody's been in here, when they go
21 back outside, don't ask them what they were
22 asked or anything like. After this is over
23 then you, of course, are free to talk to
24 anybody. And let me caution if you, please.
25 If you violate this there's a good chance
1 any testimony you've given would not be
2 allowed to received or any testimony that
3 you're about to give would not be received
4 or any testimony you give would be stricken.
5 And also please, there is a possibility of
6 contempt of court if this is violated. Does
7 anybody have any questions about what I said
8 now, what I'm asking you to do? Everybody
9 think you can do that?
10 All right. We'll call you when we're
11 ready for you, if y'all wait outside,
12 please. There's some waiting rooms over
13 here. They're all around places. Thank
15 All right. Are we ready?
16 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, Your Honor, I'd like
17 to call as my first witness Petitioner,
18 Richard Howd.
19 THE COURT: All right. If you'd come
20 forward. Madam Clerk will swear him in.
22 RICHARD HOWD,
23 WAS ADDUCED AS A WITNESS HEREIN AND AFTER BEING DULY
24 SWORN ON OATH WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
25 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, in connection
1 with his testimony we have a tape and a
2 video that he will have to refer to in order
3 to complete his testimony. And I don't know
4 quite how Your Honor suggests we do this.
5 This is a videotape furnished to counsel and
6 we have a machine here to demonstrate it.
7 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Mr. Johnson, it's
8 up to you. Doesn't make any difference to
10 THE COURT: Well let me come at it this
11 way. You all may move at will so you can
12 see. I don't know if he has the control or
13 if this gentleman's going to control it.
14 MR. JOHNSON: This gentleman, Your
16 THE COURT: Okay. And that's fine with
17 me. Like I said, counsel, you can move at
18 will. Everybody work it out. Try not to
19 block anybody or anything like that. In
20 fact, if you want, we can push that back
21 even further back that way and cock it over
22 a little bit. Its still kind of at a wicked
23 angle facing me. And Mr. Howd, can you see
24 the screen from where you are?
25 THE WITNESS: Yes.
1 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, I'd like
2 marked as Exhibit 1 this videotape, which is
3 taken from the security camera outside Fort
4 Harrison and will be identified by Mr. Howd.
5 THE COURT: All right. Have you put a
6 sticker on it?
7 THE CLERK: No, Judge Your Honor, I
8 haven't received it.
9 THE COURT: Please, let's -- you keep
10 track of it for me.
11 THE CLERK: I'll take care of it.
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 DIRECT EXAMINATION
14 BY MR. JOHNSON:
15 Q Please state your name and what is your
16 connection with the Church of Scientology, if any?
17 A My name is Richard Howd, and I work with
18 the Office of Special Affairs where I coordinate and
19 liaise with the --
20 THE COURT: Can everybody hear him all
21 right? Mr. Bailiff, check that volume on
22 the speaker. Is it on?
23 THE BAILIFF: Yes Your Honor.
24 MR. JOHNSON: I'm having trouble
25 hearing him from here, Judge.
1 THE COURT: Mr. Howd, do me a favor.
2 See if that on/off switch -- there's an
3 on/off switch see if it's on. There we go.
4 Now let's proceed.
5 BY MR. JOHNSON:
6 Q Mr. Howd, what connection do you have with
7 security of the church and the parishioners and the
9 A I liaise with security in that I am
10 responsible for ensuring anybody from outs --
11 external to the church who could pose a threat to the
12 church when they come, that I alert security and make
13 sure they know who these people are, what they're
14 capable of, things like that.
15 Q On the evening of October 31st this year
16 were you doing anything in connection with your
17 assignment to liaise with security?
18 A Yes, sir, I was.
19 Q Please tell the Court what that was.
20 A I was -- we found out that Mr. Minton flew
21 into Clearwater and was picketing in front The Fort
22 Harrison. I took my video camera and met with him
23 out front of The Fort Harrison to videotape his
24 actions and activities.
25 Q Why were you videotaping his activities?
1 A Well, on advice of counsel, Mr. Shaw,
2 Andrew Shaw, we were videotaping his activities to
3 document anything that he was doing, any threats he
4 was making or any possible physical threats he could
5 make against Scientology staff or parishioners.
6 Q Was your purpose also to prohibit him from
7 committing any violence by being videotaped?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q So --
10 A It was -- I'm sorry. It was to ensure that
11 he knew that he was being videotaped.
12 Q But you were doing it pubicly so he could
13 see you there?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q All right. So tell me and tell the Court
16 what happened.
17 A That evening when Mr. Minton showed up I
18 immediately started videotaping him.
19 Q About what time was that?
20 A I would say that was probably 9:30.
21 Between 9:30 to 10:00.
22 Q All right.
23 A Maybe a little later.
24 Q All right.
25 A And he was -- there was Mr. Minton, there
1 was Miss Brooks, and they were walking up and down
2 the front of the Fort Harrison at the main entrance,
3 and I was videotaping Mr. Minton as he walked, and as
4 he was yelling statements and things like that.
5 Q All right. In addition to the personal
6 videotape you had in your hand, was there any
7 security videotape permanently installed at the Fort
9 A Yes, sir. There's security cameras that
10 keep an eye on the front of the Fort Harrison.
11 Q And this videotape we're about to show,
12 Exhibit 1, that came from the security camera in
13 front of the Fort Harrison; is that correct?
14 A I believe so. I believe so. I believe it
15 was a security camera by the garage entrance.
16 Q Okay. Okay. Thank you. All right. So
17 then did anything unusual happen at that time?
18 A Yes. Mr. Minton was there, he was very
19 belligerent. He was --
20 Q Who was? I'm sorry.
21 A Mr. Minton.
22 Q Okay.
23 A And while we were walking, the first
24 incident was I was walking backwards; I was in front
25 of him a few paces, and he took his picket sign and
1 he pushed it into my camera. I started to reel back
2 but I steadied myself and kind of moved to a
3 different position to continue the videotape. While
4 this was going on he was yelling different statements
5 critical of the church.
6 Q Are you responding in any way?
7 A I did not say one word to him that night,
9 Q Did you make any overt actions toward him?
10 A Not -- the only thing I did was videotape
12 Q All right. And how far away from -- you
13 from him, were you when you were videotaping?
14 A I would say I was a couple paces away.
15 Q Five feet or more?
16 A I would say probably between -- I mean, it
17 varied because we were walking, but I would say
18 probably on the average around four feet or four to
19 five feet.
20 Q Did interfere with his passageway?
21 A No, sir, I didn't.
22 Q All right. Go ahead tell the Court what
24 A Prior to the incident where he struck me
25 with the picket sign we were walking down Fort
1 Harrison and then we went west to the north side of
2 the Fort Harrison where he turns around and grabs the
3 strap to my video camera and tries to pull it out of
4 my hands. At that time --
5 Q What did you do when that was done?
6 A I just held onto my camera, I just held
7 onto the camera.
8 Q You didn't attempt to strike him?
9 A No, sir, not at all.
10 Q Okay. So then what happened?
11 A Well he eventually let go of the strap and
12 I continued videotaping. And at that time he turned
13 around and with his picket sign pushed me into the
14 north side of the Fort Harrison Hotel. At that
15 moment I had no place to go. My back was directly to
16 the wall and the picket sign was right here to my
17 chest. I did reach back and push it out, push it
18 away from me, and then I moved off to the side so my
19 back wouldn't be against the wall.
20 Q Well that was -- you wouldn't call that a
21 striking, you would call that a pushing?
22 A No, that was a push. That was a push. It
23 wasn't like a strike with a picket sign.
24 Q All right. So what happened next?
25 A At that point we walked back to the corner
1 right along Fort Harrison and Mr. Minton was standing
2 there. And he said, I think it's time to call the
3 police or something to that effect. And he picked up
4 his cell phone and he started dialing the number and
5 put it up to his ear.
6 At that point he started to walk
7 across -- I believe it's Park. He started to walk
8 across that street towards the Presbyterian church
9 and he was out in the road when I started to follow
10 him, and he turned around. He had a crazed look in
11 his eyes, and he said, don't be following me.
12 The next thing I know, I did not have any
13 glasses on because I was videotaping. The edge of
14 the picket sign caught me right -- right there. Took
15 me totally by surprise; snapped my head back; I lost
16 balance and fell down.
17 Q How did the edge of the picket sign catch
18 you in the eye?
19 A Well -- it wasn't.
20 Q What did he do to cause that?
21 A It was a jabbing. He jabbed the picket
22 sign into my face.
23 Q Were you injured?
24 A Yes, I was.
25 Q Did you go to the hospital?
1 A Yes, I did.
2 Q Did the force of the strike or jabbing
3 cause you to fall?
4 A Yes, it did.
5 Q All right. Mr. Howd, you have previously
6 looked at this Exhibit 1 with me. And I ask you does
7 it fairly and accurately reflect what you have
8 described here?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 MR. JOHNSON: I'd like to roll the
11 picture, Judge, if I may.
12 THE COURT: You may.
13 THE COURT REPORTER: Your Honor.
14 THE COURT: Yes, ma'am.
15 THE COURT REPORTER: Is there audio
16 that I need to write?
17 THE COURT: Will there be sound?
18 MR. JOHNSON: On this particular one --
19 THE COURT: Here's where I'm going.
20 Court reporter she's not -- probably not
21 going to be able to take all this down.
22 What I would like is that this, once this is
23 done, it will be marked for I.D. and I want
24 it in evidence. And, Donna, you won't have
25 to take it. We'll have the video.
1 MR. JOHNSON: Judge, I believe this one
2 does not have sound. This came from the
3 different type of camera; is that correct?
4 THE WITNESS: It's just traffic if we
5 hear anything.
6 THE COURT: Traffic in the background?
7 THE WITNESS: Yes, it's quite a
8 distance away.
9 THE COURT: But as it stands right now,
10 even if the next video has sound on it, I
11 want those put into the record, they'll
12 speak for themselves and she doesn't have to
13 attempt to try and take each word down,
14 because we could stopping and starting this
16 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. That's
18 THE COURT: Mr. Devlamings, any
19 objection here?
20 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: No objection.
21 BY MR. JOHNSON:
22 Q Now where are you in that picture?
23 A We are on the north side of The Fort
24 Harrison at that point.
25 Q Whose in the white shirt?
1 A Oh, no, I'm sorry. Yeah, I am standing on
2 the corner of the street there to the right of that
3 post, the concrete post.
4 Q In the light colored shirt?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q Whose standing to the left of the concrete
8 A That is Mr. Minton and Miss Brooks.
9 Q All right. Now you're walking?
10 A Yes, that's --
11 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me. Can you back
12 that up and show that?
13 BY MR. JOHNSON:
14 Q Now you had previously described being
15 struck with the sign and falling down. Could you
16 tell the Court if this is what you were talking
18 A Yes, sir. That is what happened.
19 Q You're both walking across Pierce Street
20 now; is that correct?
21 A Yes.
22 BY MR. JOHNSON:
23 Q All right. Now go ahead.
24 A Mr. Minton is ahead of me. This is where
25 he turns around and jabs me in the face.
1 Q And where in the face did it jab you?
2 A It caught me -- it was -- it was -- it was
3 like he was headed for my left eye actually, because
4 it caught me right over the eye where I got an
5 abrasion underneath the eye and a small cut above the
7 Q And you did go to the hospital?
8 A Yes, I did.
9 Q And you did have a photograph after you
10 left the hospital?
11 A Yes.
12 Q I'll show that later. What happened next?
13 MR. JOHNSON: Will you roll the
15 BY MR. JOHNSON:
16 Q And See if you can describe this. Now
17 that's you lying on the sidewalk?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q Did anything unusual happen?
20 A Well at that time -- after I fell down I
21 didn't see Mr. Minton or Miss Brooks, but --
22 Q Have you since learned that a police car
23 rolled up?
24 A Yes, sir. I heard there was one at the
25 intersection who actually saw the incidents.
1 MR. JOHNSON: Let's back it up so the
2 Court can see that. I will be calling the
3 officer, Your Honor. And I want to make
4 sure we -- okay. Now roll it again, please,
6 BY MR. JOHNSON:
7 Q Now after -- you didn't call the police or
9 A No, sir.
10 Q You were on the ground, stunned?
11 A Yes.
12 Q All right. Okay. And that's the
13 Clearwater Police Department. All right, thank you.
14 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, I'd like this
15 marked as Exhibit 2.
16 THE COURT: All right, which is --
17 MR. JOHNSON: The photograph taken
18 immediately afterwards.
19 THE COURT: Attorneys, one other thing
20 that would help. When we take a break, I
21 try to go about an hour at a time when we
22 take breaks, come up to the clerk and give
23 her whatever you're going to be introducing
24 and let her start marking them so we don't
25 have to keep waiting. I'd like to get this
1 all done as soon as possible as much as it's
2 going in evidence.
3 MR. JOHNSON: All right.
4 THE COURT: All right. Now you want
5 these marked for I.D.?
6 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. I would offer
7 in evidence this particular one photograph.
8 THE COURT: All right. The clerk is
9 going to mark them for us.
10 MR. JOHNSON: Judge, we have a number
11 of Internet markings.
12 THE COURT: Internet markings?
13 MR. JOHNSON: Internet postings.
14 THE COURT: These have been downloaded
15 and we have copies?
16 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. I have an
17 expert to explain it.
18 THE COURT: Okay.
19 BY MR. JOHNSON:
20 Q Mr. Howd, I show you Plaintiff's Exhibit
21 No. 2 for identification and ask if you recognize
22 that photograph.
23 A Yes, sir, I do.
24 Q And who is shown in the photograph?
25 A That is me, sir.
1 Q All right. Could you hand -- give it to
2 me. I'll hand it to the judge.
3 A Okay.
4 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, may I offer
6 THE COURT: All right. Mr. Devlaming
7 you have a copy of what she's showing?
8 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Make sure. It's
9 the same, paul? Is this the one picture?
10 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. And, here, you
11 can look at my copy.
12 BY MR. JOHNSON:
13 Q What does the photograph show?
14 A That shows the effects of the picket sign
15 after it was jabbed into my face.
16 Q And when was that photograph taken?
17 A That was taken the night -- that night
18 after I got out of the hospital.
19 Q And show on your face to the Court where
20 you were struck and where you were injured.
21 A Well I was struck -- the edge of the picket
22 sign indicated me, like, directly over my left eye,
23 which created the abrasion underneath the eye and the
24 cut along the eyebrow.
25 Q All right. Thank you. Let me have the
2 Mr. Howd, you are the Petitioner in this
3 case, and you signed the petition for injunction; did
4 you not?
5 A Yes, sir.
6 Q In the petition --
7 MR. JOHNSON: And does Your Honor have
8 that before Your Honor?
9 THE COURT: I do.
10 BY MR. JOHNSON:
11 Q Did you review the petition
12 as -- particularly as to the locations in Clearwater
13 and Pinellas County that were owned or leased by the
14 Church of Scientology?
15 A Yes, sir, I did.
16 Q And were they set out in that petition?
17 A I'm sorry.
18 Q Were these locations set out in that
20 A Yes, they were.
21 Q And you also saw the injunction entered by
22 Judge Penick; did you not?
23 A Yes, I did.
24 Q Which included the same locations in his
1 A The same exact documents, yes.
2 Q I'd like to ask you to --
3 MR. JOHNSON: May I approach the
5 THE COURT: You may, sir.
6 BY MR. JOHNSON:
7 Q If you'll turn to the location of the
8 church locations.
9 MR. JOHNSON: Counsel, this is at Page
10 2 of the petition.
11 BY MR. JOHNSON:
12 Q All right. Starting with little "A" and
13 going down the list, describe the buildings of the
14 Church of Scientology and how they're used. Fort
15 Harrison, is that the location where the attack took
17 A Yes, sir.
18 Q And how is the Fort Harrison Hotel used?
19 A Well the Fort Harrison Hotel is used as a
20 hotel. It's also used as -- it has administration
21 offices, restaurants for Scientologists as well as
22 spiritual counseling. That is it's main function.
23 Q And there are rooms overlooking Fort
24 Harrison Avenue that are used for religious
1 A Yes, sir.
2 Q Is that sometimes called auditing?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And they're located on what floor?
5 A They're located on the fourth, fifth, and
6 sixth floor.
7 Q And from those auditing rooms can you hear
8 sound coming the from the street?
9 A Yes, you can, if they're loud enough. Like
10 if somebody's yelling or screaming you can.
11 Q All right. The next item Number B,
12 Sandcastle building, that's located at 200 North
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q And describe how that is used.
16 A That's also used for auditing as well as --
17 Q You said "auditing". That's religious
19 A Yes, sir, religious counseling. As well as
20 religious education, Scientology scriptures, and
21 things like that.
22 Q Is it used for residences for parishioners
23 coming to Clearwater?
24 A Yes, sir. Yes, it is.
25 Q So both the Fort Harrison Hotel and the
1 Sandcastle buildings are used for residential
2 purposes among other purposes; is that right?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And the West Coast building, No. C?
5 A That's an administrative building.
6 Q I'm sorry.
7 A That's an administrative building there.
8 Q Administrative building?
9 A Yes, sir.
10 Q Has offices there?
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Of the Scientology workers?
13 A Yes. And the different departments will be
14 located there. It's mostly used as -- for the
15 administrators of different departments and areas.
16 There's no scripture counseling or training going on
18 Q Okay. All right. The Coachman building at
19 50O Cleveland Street?
20 A Yes, that's one of the main buildings for
21 training, religious education, things like that.
22 Q The Clearwater Bank building at 5O3
23 Cleveland Street?
24 A That holds my offices, so it has
25 administrators' offices there, as well as the staff
1 dining rooms. The staff dining rooms.
2 Q The staff dining rooms?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q The Scientologists who are performing
5 services at the Fort Harrison Hotel down on 210 South
6 Fort Harrison, do they come to the Clearwater Bank
7 building during the day?
8 A Yes, sir, they do, a number of times.
9 Q On how many occasions?
10 A I would say -- it varies, but at least
11 probably four or five times. They come for
12 breakfast, lunch, dinner, as well as any staff
13 meetings to be held there.
14 Q Could you estimate how many people or
15 Scientologists, staff members, are coming from The
16 Fort Harrison to the Clearwater Bank building on
17 these four or five times a day?
18 A Every staff member in the Fort Harrison as
19 well as staff in the Coachman building and in other
20 buildings. There is approximately a thousand staff
21 employed by the church.
22 Q So they're out there on the streets between
23 the Fort Harrison and the bank building four times a
25 A Yes, sir. At least.
1 Q Does that pretty well fill up the
3 A Yes, it does. They get quite packed.
4 Q All right. The Hacienda Gardens?
5 A That is where the staff hotels are. That's
6 where staff that work at the church live.
7 Q They're residences?
8 A Yes.
9 Q The Yachtsman on Cleveland Street?
10 A The Yachtsman is a hotel for Scientologists
11 that come from out of town for church services stay
13 Q And here again it's for residences while
14 they're taking service there?
15 A Yes.
16 Q The Quality Inn on U.S. Highway 19 North?
17 A The Quality Inn houses the children of
18 staff as well as the families live there. And that's
19 where the children have their schooling and things
20 like that.
21 Q The Mariner Hotel on 711 Cleveland Street?
22 A That's another hotel for visiting
24 Q The Bayside Student Hotels?
25 A Those are -- well, it's -- Bayside is where
1 the training was. Those are three hotels on Fort
2 Harrison that hold students from other churches that
3 send their staff to the church to train.
4 Q So those three buildings, the J, K, and L,
5 Bayside Student Hotel, Clipper Student, and
6 Tradewinds all hold visiting Scientologists for
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q While they're here in Clearwater and
10 performing staff functions and studying?
11 A Yes, sir, that's correct.
12 Q All right. The Osceola Inn on North
13 Osceola Avenue?
14 A That is the building that's just been
15 purchased and it's being remodeled. But that will
16 also be used, I believe, at this time for hotel
18 Q At the present time, though, until it's
19 completed, it's not being used?
20 A No, no. It's just --
21 Q But you plan to use it for residence of
22 parishioners coming to Clearwater?
23 A Yes, sir.
24 Q The Burnside building?
25 A That's an administrative building.
1 Q Say again?
2 A That's an administrative building.
3 Q Auxilliary building on North Fort Harrison?
4 A Also an administrative building.
5 Q Students College on 531 Franklin Street?
6 A That is where the staff study the different
7 Scientology courses.
8 Q All right. And Q site of the former Grey
9 Moss Hotel? What's happening there?
10 A Well that's where the latest building is
11 being constructed.
12 Q That's under construction now?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q All right. All right, sir.
15 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me just one
16 moment. You may examine.
17 THE COURT: No further questions?
18 MR. JOHNSON: No, sir.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Mr. Devlaming, sir?
21 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
22 Q Mr. Howd, if I understand your petition
23 correctly, you want Mr. Minton to stay 150 yards away
24 from all the locations that have just been told to
25 Judge Penick?
1 A That's correct.
2 Q You understand that these locations
3 basically pepper all around our city?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q So in other words, it would be all right
6 with you if he stood somewhere had Largo with a
7 protest sign?
8 A It would be totally fine with me.
9 Q That would be fine with you. All right.
10 Now of all these places, I understand you reside at
11 Hacienda Gardens, right?
12 A Yes, sir. That's where I live.
13 Q And your office is in the Clearwater Bank
15 A Yes, sir.
16 Q And as to the other places, you may go
17 there from time to time but they are not your primary
18 place where you reside or where you work?
19 A That's correct.
20 Q Now do you have a problem with Robert
21 Minton protesting the church?
22 A I have no problem with Robert Minton
23 protesting the church. There is a problem with
24 Mr. Minton assaulting me or other Scientologists.
25 Q So you would have no problem, then, if
1 Mr. Minton could walk up and down the sidewalk right
2 in front of all these different residence and places
3 of business in an orderly fashion protesting the
4 church so long as he didn't assault a church member.
5 Is that accurate?
6 A Sure. My function there was to monitor him
7 and make sure that he knew that he was under -- that
8 he was being videotaped so that he wouldn't assault.
9 Q Okay. And so long as no assault takes
10 place, it's all right with you that he
11 exercise -- what are you looking at? Are you looking
12 at one of the lawyers?
13 A No --
14 Q It's all right with you that he exercise
15 his First Amendment rights by going up and down the
16 sidewalk in front of the Fort Harrison, correct?
17 A Yes, that's correct.
18 Q Did you have an opportunity to read this
19 petition before you signed it?
20 A Yes, I did.
21 Q Is it accurate?
22 A Yes, it is.
23 Q And the abrasion that you showed to Judge
24 Penick in the photograph was where on your face?
25 A It was -- was a cut over on the left
1 eyebrow and an abrasion right underneath the eye.
2 Q Okay. Anything else?
3 A I'm sorry.
4 Q Anything else visible on your face?
5 A No.
6 Q Okay. Let me read something to you. On
7 Page 4 of your verified petition it says, as a result
8 the of Respondent's attack Petitioner was bleeding
9 from above the right eye and suffered abrasions below
10 the eye. Didn't you just tell us it was your left
12 A Yes, it was the left eye.
13 Q So this is false.
14 A Yeah, it was my left eye.
15 Q Okay. But earlier you do talk about the
16 left eye but signify in this petition that it was
17 both. You're correcting that now, that it was only
18 one eye?
19 A Yeah, there was only one eye. I had the
20 camera over my right eye. And we jabbed the picket
21 sign, he jabbed it right into my left eye.
22 Q Did he ever throw you to the ground?
23 A No, he didn't.
24 Q Page 4, in addition Petitioner suffered
25 great pain in the lower right back and head from
1 being thrown to the ground. Is that accurate or
3 A No, it is accurate. Mr. Minton did not
4 throw me to the ground. But from the surprise and
5 the force of the picket sign, it hit me in my face,
6 my head snapped back, I lost balance and fell to the
8 Q So he did not throw you to the ground?
9 A No, he did not.
10 Q You wish to correct that in your verified
12 A Let me see. It was on Page 4?
13 Q Right.
14 A Where does it say --
15 Q Right about the middle. It says,
16 Petitioner suffered great pain in the lower right
17 back and head from being thrown to the ground.
18 Right? About smack middle of the page.
19 A Okay. I mean, that doesn't say Mr. Minton
20 threw me to the ground.
21 Q Well did anybody throw you to the ground?
22 A No.
23 Q Okay. You fell to the ground?
24 A Yes, sir.
25 Q Now this surveillance photograph -- video
1 that Judge Penick saw, that does not show -- is that
2 a stationary video from one of the eaves at the
3 Church of Scientology?
4 A I'm not sure exactly where the camera is
5 located. They said it was a security camera that was
6 set up in the garage.
7 Q Okay. It's stationary, though?
8 A I don't know.
9 Q Okay. Nobody's hand holding it to your
11 A Not to my knowledge.
12 Q All right. So we don't see what's going on
13 around the corner there. Let me go over what you say
14 was an assault by Mr. Minton. Off camera at one
15 point in time you and Mr. Minton are around the
16 left-hand corner as the viewing would be on this
17 camera, correct?
18 A That's correct.
19 Q And you say that while you and Mr. Minton
20 are around that area that Minton assaulted you there
21 as well? He pushed the sign up against you?
22 A He pushed the sign up against me and also
23 grabbed the strap to my camera.
24 Q So he assaulted you around the corner as
1 A Yes.
2 Q Did you assault him?
3 A I did not touch him.
4 Q Could you explain to Judge Penick, then,
5 while within seconds thereafter Mr. Minton grabs his
6 cell phone and says, I've had enough, I'm going to
7 call the police? Why would he call the police if he
8 assaulted you?
9 A I have no idea.
10 Q So what we're going to hear on that video,
11 on the one that has the audio that's in the
12 possession of prosecutor, is Minton saying he's had
13 enough and he's calling the police?
14 A Or something to that effect.
15 Q And he starts to walk across the street.
16 A Yes, that's correct.
17 Q And you follow him.
18 A That's correct.
19 Q With your camera in his face.
20 A It wasn't in his face. I was about five
21 feet away from him at that time and -- at which time
22 he turned around and jabbed the picket sign into my
24 Q And he says what?
25 A Don't you follow me.
1 Q Quit following me. And he turns around and
2 he holds out this protest placard, correct?
3 A No, that is totally incorrect. He did not
4 hold it up straight like that. He had it where the
5 edge -- and he did it like jabbed into the left side
6 of my face.
7 Q Mr. Howd, let me ask you something. Being
8 in the Bureau of Special Affairs --
9 A It's Office of Special Affairs.
10 Q Office of Special Affairs.
11 A Yes, sir.
12 Q Is that what used to be called the
13 Guardian's Office?
14 A No.
15 Q Never was called the Guardian's Office
16 years ago?
17 A No, sir.
18 Q Are you in Department 20?
19 A Yes, I am.
20 Q Are you familiar with the Guardian's Office
21 being also Department 20?
22 A No, I'm not. I was the -- the Guardian's
23 Office was long before I ever became involved with
24 the church.
25 Q How long have you been a member of the
2 A Since 1989.
3 Q Do you agree or disagree with the following
4 statement: A suppressive person may be deprived of
5 property or injured by any means by any Scientologist
6 without any discipline of a Scientologist. He may be
7 tricked, sued, or lied to, or destroyed.
8 MR. JOHNSON: Object to the form of the
9 question. It's not cross of anything
10 brought on direct. It's irrelevant,
11 immaterial. He doesn't identify when that
12 was written and by whom, and if certainly
13 has no bearing on the issues before the
14 Court today.
15 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Judge, I'll lay a
17 THE COURT: Lay a predicate. Let me do
18 one thing, too. Attorneys, I ask that you
19 keep a vigil out. I've noticed people
20 coming and going. I don't know whether they
21 are witnesses that are going to appear at a
22 later time, but I hold you both to the rule
23 in case you see somebody come in. Please
25 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Thank you.
1 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
2 Q You know who L. Ron Hubbard is?
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q He started the Church of Scientology?
5 A That's correct.
6 Q Are you familiar with his policy on what's
7 called fair game?
8 A I've never read his policy.
9 Q Okay. So you agree or disagree with what I
10 just read in open court?
11 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, please. I
12 have an objection.
13 THE COURT: All right. You do, sir.
14 Objection's overruled at this time. I'm
15 going to see what predicate's laid. Please
17 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
18 Q If that is a discipline of the church do
19 you agree or disagree with it, that that can be done
20 to others, suppressive persons?
21 A That is not from a policy I have ever read
22 in any of the church policies I've read.
23 Q Okay. So then here's the follow-up
24 question: Then you disavow that statement or that
25 policy if it is policy, correct?
1 A Totally.
2 MR. JOHNSON: Just a second. He's
3 assuming something is policy without laying
4 a predicate. He announced the to the Court
5 he would lay a predicate. I haven't seen a
6 predicate laid yet. So I object to it
7 without predicate being laid.
8 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: All right.
9 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
10 Q In October 1967 founder L. Ron Hubbard
11 issued a policy letter entitled Penalties for Lower
12 Conditions. Did you read that in your readings of
14 A No, I don't recall ever reading that.
15 Q All right. Now when Mr. Minton comes to
16 town and you go out to videotape him, do you approve
17 or disprove of those that stop his egress, in other
18 words his abilities to walk up and down the street?
19 A I have never seen anybody stop his egress
20 up and down the street.
21 Q So that is not to be done as far as the
22 Church of Scientology.
23 A As far as I'm concerned.
24 Q Okay. So if we had a video of
25 Scientologists doing that, that would be against
1 policy, correct?
2 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me. Object to
3 unless he identifies what Scientologists,
4 what city, what country he's talking about.
5 Certainly I don't think he's talking
7 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Well actually,
8 Mr. Johnson, we have a video, Your Honor, of
9 Clearwater July 11th, 1999.
10 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
11 Q So if we see a videotape, Mr. Howd, you're
12 going to be sitting right at this table when it's
13 shown, of somebody stopping the egress of this man as
14 he's protesting, that would be against church policy,
16 A There's no church policy that explicitly
17 states that one does not stop the egress of someone
18 when they're outside picketing. I mean, what policy
19 are you talking about?
20 Q I'm asking you whether or not you're
21 allowed to do that. Is that part of the doctrine of
22 the church to stop them -- how about to harass
23 picketers? You harass picketers?
24 A No.
25 Q Okay.
1 A That day I was videotaping Mr. Minton. I
2 did not say anything to him. I was there so that he
3 realized that he was being videotaped to keep him
4 from assaulting any Scientologists whether it was
5 staff or parishioners. I mean, little did I realize
6 I was going to be the one who was assaulted.
7 But that was my purpose there. It was not
8 to harass Mr. Minton. It was not to do anything of
9 that nature. It was on an advice of counsel to
10 document his activities in the front of my church.
11 Q Okay. So those then -- let me ask you
12 this: Would it be appropriate or inappropriate in
13 the Department of Special Affairs in the city of
14 Clearwater --
15 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me. I hate to
16 interrupt, but it's not a the department,
17 it's the office. There's no department.
18 THE COURT: Thank you.
19 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Okay.
20 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
21 Q In the Office of Special Affairs to, as a
22 person protests, call them an adulter, say I'm going
23 to gather information and send it to your wife so she
24 can divorce you, or to use four letter words? Is
25 that all fair game.
1 A What do you mean by fair game?
2 Q By members of the Church of Scientology if
3 Mr. Minton is -- or any protester is walking up and
4 down, can Scientologists follow him and say things
5 like that, what do you think about being an
6 adulterer, Mr. Minton, do you like being an adulter;
7 I'm going to gather information send it to your wife;
8 and then using any kind of foul language or
9 four-letter words. Is that approved or disproved by
10 your Office of Special Affairs?
11 A I mean, it's a very general statement. I
12 don't --
13 Q I'm trying to be real specific. I said can
14 you call them an adulter, can you say let me take
15 pictures of the lovebirds, maybe he and somebody he
16 may be seeing outside marriage, or anything of this
17 nature, or use four-letter words outside of your
19 A That would be entirely up to the individual
20 that's out there that's -- whoever they may be,
21 that's --
22 Q But I certainly is not done with your
23 knowledge or the Office of Special Affairs, or
24 approved? Let me just say approved.
25 A Approved?
1 Q Yes.
2 A Approved by the Office of Special Affairs?
3 Q Yes.
4 A Again, when you say approved by the Office
5 of Special Affairs is this -- it could also depend on
6 what did this person say to the person who's saying
7 that to them. I mean, it's just a very broad
8 statement to say do I approve or does somebody
9 approve in the Office of Special Affairs one way or
10 the other on this. I mean, there's no --
11 Q Mr. Howd is there a edict --
12 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me. He did not
13 finish his answer.
14 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Oh, I'm sorry.
15 Go ahead.
16 A I mean, Mr. Minton has many times been very
17 belligerent in front of our church. If a
18 Scientologist is going to turn around and say the
19 same things to them under their First Amendment
20 rights, I mean, it's covered under the First
21 Amendment. We don't have policy one way or the other
22 in the Office of Special Affairs saying what can be
23 said and what can't be said.
24 Q There's no policy?
25 A Correct.
1 Q No policy?
2 A That's correct.
3 Q Fair game?
4 A Fair game, I have never read that.
5 Q No, I mean in general terms. It's fair
6 game. If somebody gives it to you, you can give it
7 back to them, right?
8 A Okay, now, what do you mean by fair game?
9 Q Well, if Mr. Minton is saying things about
10 the Church of Scientology, you can say things about
11 Mr. Minton's private life?
12 A Again, there's no policy one way or the
13 other on this. It's up to an individual. If
14 Mr. Minton is protesting in front of the Church of
15 Scientology, if he's screaming or yelling belligerent
16 statements and a Scientologist is there and they care
17 to exercise their First Amendment rights, the church
18 is not going to stop him.
19 Q Fine. That's all I wanted you to say. So
20 then that's okay. That's fair game for them to
21 say -- exercise their First Amendment rights to
22 include insults, foul language, four-letter words if
23 they think they can use it if the comeback is
25 A It's up to the individual.
1 Q Up to the individual Scientologist.
2 A Or whatever.
3 Q Is the spiritual headquarters? On Fort
4 Harrison, the Fort Harrison?
5 A Spiritual headquarters?
6 Q Yes, where's the place of worship?
7 A Well there's counseling that can happen in
8 a number of different --
9 Q Where do you go to worship? In all these
10 places that Mr. Johnson has read off, which is the
11 place where you go to worship as a church?
12 A Do you mean worship in a traditional sense
13 in a Christian sense? There is no place to worship
14 in, say, like the Christian sense of the word.
15 However, there is spiritual counseling in the church
16 that happens throughout the properties within
18 Q Well let me ask you this. Is there one of
19 those 17 or 18 locations where a member of the public
20 that is not a member of Scientology can walk in off
21 the street and worship? Will you allow a member of
22 the public to walk in off the street and worship?
23 A There are -- worship in the sense of the
24 words you're using it is not part of the Scientology
25 custom. Okay? There are courses that one could
1 take. There's actually a church mission right in
2 Clearwater that is separate from the Flag Service
3 Organization of downtown Clearwater where anybody
4 could come off the street and take Scientology
5 spiritual counseling, study Scientology course,
6 pretty much the whole gamut.
7 But as far as worship, there is no -- this
8 is the -- this is the religion of Scientology. It's
9 not a Christian religion where somebody would come
10 and worship in a Christian sense or in a Moslem
11 since. It's a different religion.
12 Q Mr. Howd, did you have an opportunity to
13 review a videotape that was given to Mr. Johnson by
15 A I don't believe I did.
16 Q So in the last time before Judge Penick
17 adjourned and I gave Mr. Johnson a copy of a
18 videotape, you have not seen it?
19 A I have seen possibly parts of it. I have
20 seen possibly -- I mean, I've been looking at a lot
21 of --
22 Q Well let me refresh your recollection. And
23 I'm sure Mr. Johnson can do this on redirect. If it
24 is one that you may have seen, it might be of an
25 incident in Boston last year. Does that refresh are
2 A Okay. There was -- yes, where Mr. Minton
3 was arrested for assault and battery.
4 Q That's correct. And it had to do with a
5 placard, didn't it?
6 A Um.
7 Q And he was holding a protest sign, correct?
8 A That's correct.
9 Q All right. And you saw the member of the
10 Church of Scientology provoke that incident and yell
11 to have the police called because Mr. Minton, in
12 walking up and down, came in contact with him. Do
13 you see that part?
14 MR. JOHNSON: Object. This proposed
15 tape has not yet been offered in evidence
16 and may well not be admitted in evidence and
17 unless it is, we suggest it's irrelevant.
18 Something that happened in Boston is
19 irrelevant to something that happened here
20 on Halloween Night this year.
21 THE COURT: Mr. Devlaming?
22 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Judge, I'll ask a
23 few other questions, but really what I need
24 to do is to show a pattern, Judge. And
25 that's what I'm asking.
1 THE COURT: Proceed. Lay a predicate.
2 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: All right.
3 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
4 Q Have you ever seen a film involving the
5 Scientologists and Mr. Minton wherein the
6 Scientologists are provoking Minton, inviting Minton,
7 to either push him aside or to walk past him so that
8 they have to be pushed aside so that there has to be
9 a touching? Have you ever seen that?
10 A I have seen a video from Boston. The video
11 that basically when Mr. Minton was arrested where
12 they were, both Mr. Minton and some individuals from
13 the church, were involved.
14 Q Okay. Now I want you to characterize how
15 that individual, the one that was assaulted, was
16 acting towards Minton. Is that acceptable behavior
17 in the event that the Judge, allows us to play it in
18 this courtroom, or inacceptable (sic) behavior?
19 A Based on what?
20 Q On church doctrine. On what the Office of
21 Special Affairs says you're allowed to do.
22 A The Office of Special Affairs doesn't say
23 anybody is allowed to do anything in one way or other
24 when it comes to situation like this. If there was a
25 Scientologist out there and he was
1 counter-demonstrating against Mr. Minton or whatever,
2 it is not -- there is no policy, there is no official
3 policy saying, this is how you act.
4 Q Okay. So there was nothing wrong with what
5 you saw as far as the Scientologists are concerned?
6 A I cannot make a determination on that
7 because I wasn't there. I didn't see the whole
8 thing. I saw part of the video. There was -- it was
9 heated. There were words exchanged. That's true. I
10 saw Mr. Minton strike the other person.
11 Q Did you see what happened -- did you see
12 what happened right before he threw that little
13 stick? Did you see what happened right before that?
14 A I saw the camera being jumbled around.
15 Q That's right. Because what you saw on that
16 video, if you watched the one that I gave
17 Mr. Johnson, it's two shots. One taken by a
18 Scientologist, and the one that this man was holding.
19 And you saw the Scientologist knock that out of his
20 hand so he couldn't photograph it, the ground is then
21 being photographed --
22 A I never saw that. I never saw that.
23 Q All right. Okay, well then we'll wait.
24 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: That's all, Your
1 THE COURT: All right. Thank you very
2 much. Mr. Johnson, redirect, sir?
3 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
4 BY MR. JOHNSON:
5 Q In addition to avoiding violence by
6 Mr. Minton were you hoping to avoid his harassing
7 members of the church and parishioners on that night,
8 on Halloween Night this year?
9 A Yes, sir, I was. I mean, my
10 purpose -- there was a few reasons I was doing that.
11 Number one was to make sure ensure that Mr. Minton
12 realized that he was being videotaped so that he
13 would not assault anybody. Number two was that it
14 was also in the hopes that he would curb any type of
15 screaming or yelling that he has done numerous times
16 in the past that can disturb religious counseling
17 sessions that are happening within the Fort Harrison.
18 Q They were going on right over his head?
19 A Yes, sir. I mean, people prepare years to
20 come to the church in Clearwater to -- for religious
21 services that only the church of Clearwater can give.
22 And to have an individual up there screaming and
23 hollering belligerent -- making belligerents
24 statements, vulgar statements, disrupting these
25 religious counseling services, is a very serious
1 offense within the church.
2 Q All right. Now Mr. Devlaming asked you
3 about something that happened some time ago in
4 Boston. And I ask you about what happened here in
5 Clearwater on Halloween Night this year. Did you
6 harass Mr. Minton in any way prior to him striking
8 A No, sir, I did not. I did not say a word.
9 Q Did you speak to him?
10 A No, sir, I did not. I didn't.
11 Q Did you strike him in any way?
12 A No, sir I didn't.
13 Q In fact, he just turned around and whacked
14 you without any reason?
15 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Objection,
17 MR. JOHNSON: Okay.
18 BY MR. JOHNSON:
19 Q Tell me what did he do? Without any reason
20 did he do something to you?
21 A He was walking away from me. He was about
22 five feet away from me. I had the video camera where
23 he spun around, he said, don't you follow me, and the
24 next thing I realize is the edge of the picket sign
25 just caught me right there.
1 Q You were about how far away when he came
2 over to hit you?
3 A I would say approximately four-and-a-half
4 to five feet.
5 Q All right.
6 MR. JOHNSON: That's all.
7 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: That's all. No
9 THE COURT: All right, sir. You may
10 step down, have a seat over at counsel
11 table. Ladies and gentlemen, we've been
12 going an hour approximately hour and 20, 25
13 minutes. Let's take a 15-minute break at
14 this time.
15 MR. HOWIE: May it please the Court.
16 THE COURT: Hello.
17 MR. HOWIE: Your Honor, I'm obligated
18 to be before Judge Adams in Tampa at three
20 THE COURT: Good luck. Drive safely.
21 You'll be back probably? Okay. Thank you
22 for giving that stuff to her. I appreciate
23 it. And the defense, did you have anything
24 to mark?
25 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: We got it.
1 THE COURT: Great. Okay. Call your
2 next witness, sir.
3 MR. JOHNSON: Officer Beaudette.
4 THE COURT: Mr. Bailiff, if you can get
5 Officer Beaudette, please, sir.
7 MARK BEAUDETTE,
8 WAS ADDUCED AS A WITNESS HEREIN AND AFTER BEING DULY
9 SWORN ON OATH WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
10 DIRECT EXAMINATION
11 BY MR. JOHNSON:
12 Q State your name please sir.
13 A Mark Beaudette.
14 Q And what is your occupation, Mr. Beaudette?
15 A I'm a police officer for the City of
17 Q Officer Beaudette, on Halloween Night of
18 this year were you on patrol in your police cruiser
19 around the Fort Harrison Hotel?
20 A Yes, I was.
21 Q Tell the Judge, what you observed.
22 A I observed a group of people on the
23 southwest corner of Pierce and South Fort Harrison.
24 I didn't pay that much attention to it because
25 there's always people out at the corner at that time
1 of night. I heard some yelling, at which time I
2 looked back and I seen Mr. Minton take a step towards
3 Mr. Dowd (sic) and strike him with a sign that he was
5 Q Do you see the gentleman who did the
6 striking here in the courtroom today?
7 A Yes, I do.
8 Q And where is he?
9 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Judge, we'll
10 stipulate Mr. Minton is to my left.
11 THE COURT: Let the record so reflect.
12 BY MR. JOHNSON:
13 Q Okay. Then you saw Mr. Minton take a step
14 towards the gentleman and strike him with a sign, you
16 A Yes.
17 Q And then what happened?
18 A Mr. Dowd fell down. Several people rushed
19 over towards him, and Mr. Minton started walking west
20 on Pierce Street.
21 Q Did you do anything with your flashing red
22 and blue lights?
23 A Yeah, I turned my lights on so I wouldn't
24 have any problems with traffic and cut across the
25 lanes and drove over to where Mr. Minton was.
1 Q Now how far had Mr. Minton gone from the
2 point of striking to where you stopped him in your
3 police cruiser?
4 A Maybe a hundred feet.
5 Q After Mr. Minton struck Mr. Howd did he go
6 back to see if he was injured or look at him or do
7 anything of that sort?
8 A No.
9 Q He just took off?
10 A He walked away.
11 Q And did you have occasion to see any videos
12 taken there at the scene?
13 A I did.
14 Q And did they -- what did they show?
15 A Basically they showed -- like, the two of
16 them that I -- that showed that portion of what
17 happened, showed basically what I just told you.
18 Q Did either your personal view or the videos
19 you saw show Mr. Howd making any aggressive action or
20 movements toward Mr. Minton?
21 A I didn't see any movement towards him
22 because I didn't see that portion of it. The videos
23 that I showed didn't show anything that I considered
24 to be any aggressive action.
25 Q But with your own vision, though, you saw
1 Mr. Minton striking and Mr. Howd fell down?
2 A Yes, sir.
3 Q Do you recognize Mr. Howd as being the
4 gentleman that you saw that day?
5 A Yes.
6 Q What did you do, then, officially in
7 connection with what you had observed and what you
8 learned from seeing the videos and talking to -- did
9 you talk to any witnesses or anything?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 Q All right. From your investigation,
12 talking to the witnesses, looking at the videos,
13 personally seeing this action, what did you do?
14 A I made a physical arrest of Mr. Minton.
15 Q Charged him with what?
16 A Simple battery, misdemeanor.
17 Q I'm sorry.
18 A Misdemeanor battery.
19 Q Misdemeanor battery. As far as you know is
20 that case still pending?
21 A As far as I know it is.
22 Q I don't know.
23 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me just a moment.
24 BY MR. JOHNSON:
25 Q Do you know, officer, whether or not
1 Mr. Devlaming and I attempted to get copies of those
2 videos that you saw that night?
3 A Some of them, the church approached me and
4 asked if they could get copies of the videos.
5 Q And because there's an ongoing criminal
6 investigation they were not released to either
7 Mr. Devlaming nor to me?
8 A I don't know about Mr. Devlaming, but I do
9 know that I told people from the church that I
10 couldn't release them because of an ongoing
12 MR. JOHNSON: Okay. Your Honor, the
13 reason I pointed that out, because you
14 didn't see that video here, you saw the one
15 from down the front of the hotel. This one,
16 the hand-held videos, I just wanted the
17 record to show neither Mr. Devlaming or I
18 have seen them because they're holding them
19 for the completion of the investigation.
20 THE COURT: Okay. Let the record so
22 MR. JOHNSON: All right. You may exam.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Devlaming?
25 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
1 Q Officer, what's the east-west road that
2 goes along the church -- the Fort Harrison Hotel?
3 What's the name of that road?
4 A Pierce Street.
5 Q Pierce. I've seen this still video that
6 was shown in the courtroom, that's the one that
7 Mr. Johnson was just talking about, and at the end of
8 it. I don't know whether it was played to its end.
9 I assuming it was for Judge Penick. You see a police
10 cruiser taking -- heading north taking a left on
11 Pierce, which would, then, be heading west. Would
12 that be you?
13 A Yes, sir. I would assume it is because I
14 haven't seen that video.
15 Q Well I will tell you this. It was within a
16 few seconds after the incident we see a police car.
17 You were the first on the scene?
18 A That would be me.
19 Q Okay. Were you then heading north on Fort
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q Okay. So our vantage point, then, would
23 have been south of Pierce looking north, which would
24 be basically to the back of Mr. Howd, correct?
25 A I was the first vehicle, I believe, at the
1 stop light that was red. And it's pretty much just
2 looking out the window.
3 Q Okay. So you were stopped at a stoplight?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q Okay. And you waited for the light to
6 change? And is that why it took five, six, seven
7 seconds for you to make a left?
8 A Well, I had to also be sure that there
9 wasn't any traffic coming. I'm not going to get into
10 an accident over something that appears to be over at
11 the time.
12 Q Were you able from your vantage point to
13 see what happened around the corner on Pierce Street
14 between Mr. Minton and Mr. Howd before the incident
15 you saw?
16 A No.
17 Q Did you see the breaking of the sign that
18 was carried by Mr. Minton?
19 A No. As I stated, I only seen the portion
20 when Mr. Minton started yelling at Mr. Dowd (sic)
21 just seconds before he was struck.
22 Q Okay. And did you hear him say quit
23 following me or stay away from me?
24 A I can't really say that I did. I heard
25 some yelling but it was inarticulate to me in that I
1 couldn't understand what was being said.
2 Q Was Mr. Minton yelling as he was walking
3 away from Dowd (sic)?
4 A I can't really say.
5 Q Okay.
6 A Because when I looked up is when he in turn
7 already --
8 Q But Minton was on his way north across
9 Pierce Street when this happened, correct?
10 A According to the videos that I watched,
12 Q Well, and according to your vantage point?
13 A Like I said, he had already turned when I
14 looked up, so I can't say which way he was going.
15 Q I see. Okay. Did you see a cell phone to
16 his ear?
17 A He had a cell phone with him. I can't
18 really say if he had one when I saw him when the
19 subject got struck. I can't really say for sure if
20 he had one in his --
21 Q Did you determine during the course of your
22 investigation that Minton was calling the police
23 because of what just went between him and Mr. Dowd?
24 A That's what he told me, yes.
25 Q And did he indicate that he was being
1 followed or pursued by Dowd and that's when he pushed
2 him away with the sign?
3 A Yes, that's what he said.
4 Q Did you have a conversation with Mr. Dowd?
5 A No, I did not.
6 Q Did you see Mr. Dowd?
7 A Yes, I did.
8 Q Did he appear to be injured in any way?
9 A Yes.
10 Q How?
11 A He had a slight cut just above the eyebrow
12 and a slight abrasion just underneath his --
13 Q Did you talk the protest placard into
15 A Yes, I did.
16 Q Did you determine it to be damaged? Was it
18 A I don't know what shape. It was still in
19 one piece.
20 Q No stick on it?
21 A No.
22 Q In fact, it was just a piece of -- what do
23 they call it? Foam board poster?
24 A A double-layered piece of poster board.
25 Q Poster board. And did it have anything
1 that -- anything hard in order to hold it up in the
2 air in a protest manner?
3 A To hold it up in the air, no.
4 Q So it was just a piece of -- a double piece
5 of poster barred?
6 A That was held -- yes. It was held together
7 with four clamps. I don't know how to describe it
8 any better than that. The wide clamps that you use
9 to hold large bundles of papers together.
10 Q Right.
11 A One on each corner.
12 Q Okay. And did he push it in the direction
13 of Mr. Dowd -- did he swing it at him or did he push
14 it in his direction to keep him away?
15 A He had it in his right-hand side. It was
16 extended out away from him pointing towards Mr. Dowd,
17 and he jabbed it at him like that.
18 Q And was Dowd coming in his direction at the
19 time that he did that?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And did Dowd have a video camera to his
22 face videotaping then?
23 A Yes.
24 Q Did you see the force upon which Mr. Dowd
25 was hit?
1 A Yes.
2 Q Was it commensurate with him crumbling to
3 the ground?
4 A I can't really tell you. For him or for
5 me? I don't know.
6 Q How about for the average man?
7 A I can only speak for myself as far as that
9 Q How tall are you?
10 A 5'10".
11 Q What do you weigh?
12 A 190.
13 Q Would it knock you to the ground?
14 A No.
15 Q Were you on routine patrol that day?
16 A Yes, sir.
17 Q Okay. So you were not looking after any
18 protesting that was going on at the church or
19 anything like that?
20 A No, I was unaware that there even was any.
21 Q Was there any audio to the video that you
22 happen to listen to?
23 A Yes.
24 Q How many videos did you watch?
25 A Three.
1 Q And was one of them taken by Miss Brooks?
2 Does that sound familiar?
3 A Yes.
4 Q And another one by Dowd -- Howd himself?
5 A Yes.
6 Q Were you able to hear on there what Minton
8 A Yes, I believe it was pretty loud. Most of
9 it is anyway.
10 Q Okay. Can you tell Judge Penick what he
11 said before he pushed the placard out in the
12 direction of Mr. Howd?
13 A I can't do it word-for-word, but what he
14 said was to get away from me, leave me alone.
15 Q And that immediately preceded him pushing
16 that placard out?
17 A Yes.
18 Q Thank you, officer.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Thank you,
20 Mr. Devlaming. Mr. Johnson, redirect?
21 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
22 BY MR. JOHNSON:
23 Q Okay. When Mr. Howd was struck with this
24 board -- I understand it's a foam core board with
25 hard exterior? Is that --
1 A Yeah, it's like poster board except it has
2 foam in the middle.
3 Q The surface, though, is a hard surface on
4 the outside?
5 A Well --
6 Q Relatively hard.
7 A Well, like cardboard paper, yeah.
8 Q So and then did you see Mr. Minton take a
9 step toward Mr. Howd when he struck him with the
11 A Yes, he did step towards him.
12 Q And just for the record, when you were
13 talking about this gentleman, we're talking Mr. Howd
15 A I'm sorry.
16 Q That's all right. You both were doing it.
17 We just want to make sure the record is correct.
18 This gentleman sitting right here, Mr. Howd?
19 A Correct.
20 THE COURT: Okay, anything else?
21 MR. JOHNSON: No, Your Honor.
22 THE COURT: Officer, thank you very
24 MR. JOHNSON: May he be excused, Your
1 THE COURT: Yes, you may be.
2 Call your next witness.
3 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, I'd like to
4 call the operator Steve to operate the
5 machine for another video.
6 THE COURT: All right. There's to
7 witness to go with this or anything.
8 MR. JOHNSON: We have a witness. If
9 the counsel wants me to bring the witness
10 who took the video.
11 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Who's that?
12 MR. JOHNSON: Garrett Blair.
13 (THEREUPON, A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
14 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: That's all right.
15 MR. JOHNSON: We said previously
16 furnished this.
17 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Save time.
18 THE COURT: Okay, thank you very much,
19 Madam Clerk. This is Exhibit No. 17.
20 MR. JOHNSON: And return I represent to
21 the Court we're calling this to show
22 harassment on the part of Mr. Minton, the
23 purpose for this. This film was taken on
24 November 30, 1998.
25 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Where?
1 MR. JOHNSON: In front of the -- in the
2 back of the Fort Harrison.
3 THE COURT: On November 30th?
4 MR. JOHNSON: Yes.
5 THE COURT: Well that hasn't happened
7 MR. JOHNSON: '98.
8 THE COURT: I was going to say let's
9 wait until tomorrow and see what happens.
10 MR. JOHNSON: It'll be a year tomorrow,
12 THE COURT: Okay.
13 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
14 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me. Back it up
15 and turn it down a little bit.
16 THE COURT: Yeah, please. There are
17 hearings in all the other judge's chambers.
18 MR. JOHNSON: And back it up just a
19 little bit so you can hear the entire
21 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
22 MR. JOHNSON: Judge, we offer that to
23 show harassment and inciting violence with
24 fighting words referring to his relationship
25 with the man's mother, and also the
1 relationship with the eccliastical head --
2 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Judge, I'm going
3 to object. Excuse me, Mr. Johnson. I'm
4 going to object. I don't think this is the
5 time for arguments. This is the time for
6 presentation of evidence. If he had a
7 witness on the stand he wouldn't be able to
8 do what he's doing to the Court. I think we
9 should save that for argument.
10 THE COURT: All right. Thank you very
11 much. I've seen the video you've presented
12 it. Call your next witness.
14 RHEA SMITH,
15 WAS ADDUCED AS A WITNESS HEREIN AND AFTER BEING DULY
16 SWORN ON OATH WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
17 DIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. JOHNSON:
19 Q State your name, please, ma'am?
20 A Rhea.
21 Q Yeah, spell the name, please.
22 A R-H-E-A.
23 Q And pronounced Rhea?
24 A Rhea.
25 Q Smith?
1 A Yes.
2 Q And do you a connection with the Church of
4 A Yes, I do.
5 Q And you'll have to speak up so --
6 A Oh. Okay. I'm sorry. Yes, I do.
7 Q And what is your -- are you on staff with
8 the Church of Scientology?
9 A Yes, I am.
10 Q How long have you been a staff member of
11 the Church of Scientology?
12 A Since 1977.
13 Q And what is your assignment now and for the
14 past several years?
15 A My current assignment is Internet
16 Monitoring IC, in charge.
17 Q So what do you do as being the Internet
18 Monitoring IC?
19 A I monitor the Internet for copyright,
20 trademark infringements primarily.
21 Q And as a result of your efforts monitoring
22 and downloading copyright violations have there been
23 lawsuits successfully filed to protect the church
25 A Yes, sir, there have.
1 Q All right. And in addition to monitoring
2 for trademark and copyright infringements do you
3 monitor for anything else that might be of interest
4 to the Church of Scientology?
5 A Yes, I do.
6 Q Have you done any monitoring related to
7 Robert Minton?
8 A Yes, sir.
9 Q Can you explain to the record -- excuse me.
10 The Court and everyone knows except me about Internet
11 downloading. How do you know -- if something says
12 Robert Minton, how do we know it's by Robert Minton?
13 A I'm sorry. I don't understand. Could you
14 repeat that, sir?
15 Q I'm sorry.
16 A I didn't understand that. I'm sorry.
17 Q Well let me first ask about -- what is an
18 Internet posting?
19 A An Internet posting is a message that a
20 person puts on a newsgroup from their E-mail I.D.
21 Q Can you describe what a newsgroup is?
22 A A newsgroup is like a bulletin board system
23 where you can -- in fact, that's where the word
24 "post" came from, an old bulletin board where you
25 post a message on a bulletin board, but now it's
1 electronic so it goes onto a computer and it travels
2 on computers around the world.
3 Q Okay. Does the author of the posing put
4 his or her name on the posting newsgroup?
5 A Yes, sir. It comes from their E-mail
6 identification. And many times they sign it.
7 Q Okay. I would like to --
8 MR. JOHNSON: We don't have another set
9 of these so the Judge can follow. Your
10 Honor, could I suggest it might be helpful
11 to the Court to follow these postings?
12 THE COURT: All right. Do you have a
13 copy for Mr. Devlaming? Let him see when
14 you have first. I don't know if he's seen
16 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: I glanced at them
17 Judge, but if I could have a second, that
18 would help.
19 THE COURT: Okay. Please provide with
20 the other side with a set.
21EREUPON, A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
22 THE COURT: Do you want me to give her
24 MR. JOHNSON: No, sir. I want you to
25 read it. Well let me see.
1 THE COURT: Let's do this: Hand these
2 to her, she can look at them, and then when
3 she gets through, hand them over to me.
4 MR. JOHNSON: All right, sir. Thank
5 you. And I ask the clerk, the first number
6 is number --
7 THE CLERK: First number on those --
8 THE COURT: Miss Smith, what's the
9 number on that yellow card?
10 THE CLERK: That's No. 3, Your Honor.
11 THE WITNESS: This is No. 3 is the
13 MR. JOHNSON: I don't think we want to
14 go to the affidavit because you're here live
15 to testify.
16 BY MR. JOHNSON:
17 Q So let's put the affidavit aside and go to
18 the first posting which says "Loretta Miscavige gets
19 a call" in the upper left-hand corner.
20 A Right.
21 MR. JOHNSON: That's No. 3, Miss Clerk?
22 THE WITNESS: That's No. 4.
23 MR. JOHNSON: We're not going to use
24 the affidavit because she's going to testify
25 live. So No. 4. says in the upper left-hand
1 side corner "Loretta Miscavige gets a call.
2 WHEREUPON, A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
3 BY MR. JOHNSON:
4 Q Will you explain to the Court about Exhibit
5 No. 4, which is entitled "Loretta Miscavige gets a
6 call"? How did this happen to be in your hands here
8 A Well on a daily basis I check the newsgroup
9 to see what postings have been made of interest,
10 trademark, copyright infringements, and anything else
11 of interest to the church.
12 THE COURT: When you say you check news
13 groups what are you talking about?
14 THE WITNESS: A newsgroup is where a
15 number of people discuss different subjects.
16 THE COURT: Okay. I understand all
17 that, and I know what chat rooms are, but I
18 just wondered what area you went to.
19 THE WITNESS: This one was on what's
20 called Alt Religion Scientology, which is
21 which is about Scientology.
22 THE COURT: Okay. That's what I was
23 getting to.
24 BY MR. JOHNSON:
25 Q What is the title of that newsgroup?
1 A It's called Alt Religion Scientology.
2 Q A-L-T --
3 A Uh-huh.
4 Q Religion Scientology?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And that's the newsgroup that you've
7 learned from your daily checking is used by whom?
8 A Copyright, trademark infringements, and
9 people who have interests in picketing the church,
10 people who --
11 Q Anti-Scientologists use this newsgroup?
12 A Yes.
13 Q So the Court can follow when he gets it
14 back in his hands, where does it say which newsgroup
15 this is?
16 A It says Newsgroup: Alt Religion
18 Q Where are you reading?
19 A About the fourth line -- fifth line down.
20 Q Okay. Fifth line down, it says Newsgroup:
21 Alt Religion Scientology?
22 A Yes.
23 Q And you've learned that's used by
24 anti-Scientologists to make postings?
25 A Yes.
1 Q All right. Now it says here "from Bob
2 Minton". How do you know it's from Bob Minton or did
3 someone else just put his name in?
4 A It's from his E-mail I.D. and he signed it.
5 Q Now where do you find Bob Minton's E-mail?
6 A From Bob@minton.org, which it's registered
7 to him and it's signed Bob Minton.
8 Q All right. Is there anything else to
9 indicate it's sent from him?
10 A On this, no.
11 Q So you've got two things: You've got the
12 E-mail address and you've also got the newsgroup that
13 he frequently uses?
14 A Right, and he signed this also.
15 Q And he signed it. All right. Could you
16 read then what the last two paragraphs are of that
17 posting -- let me ask one other question. After you
18 see this on the computer how do you get it in a
19 hardcopy like this?
20 A You print. You can just print it out.
21 Q I hear the word downloading used somewhere.
22 Is that what we're talking about?
23 THE COURT: For purposes of the record,
24 I'm quasi-computer literate. I understand
25 about downloading, I know about printing and
1 everything else, and into it bigtime. In
2 fact I've even got my Palm Pilot here with
3 me right in you. So go ahead with that.
4 Now wait a minute. I've got to be fair
5 with you, too, Paul. Please, build your
6 record. I'm not saying that all appellate
7 judges are computer literate, but it's your
8 call. But I'm pretty much moxie on
9 computers but go ahead.
10 MR. JOHNSON: Well, I don't know what
11 the Second DCA knows about computers.
12 THE COURT: I would assume they're
13 pretty sharp but, go ahead.
14 MR. JOHNSON: I assume so, too.
15 BY MR. JOHNSON:
16 Q Read the last two paragraphs of this
17 posting by Bob Minton on -- what date it was posted?
18 A This one was posted on 11/21, 1999.
19 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Judge, I'm going
20 to enter a time saver objection here. These
21 will speak for. I have no objection. I've
22 shown them to Mr. Minton. To the one that
23 Mr. Johnson is on now, this document speaks
24 for itself. Court can read it. The second
25 document, if he intends to use it, entitled
1 "Message for Loretta" on the top left. We
2 will stipulate that that was sent by
3 Mr. Minton.
4 MR. JOHNSON: That's No. 5?
5 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Well, I don't
6 have numbers on this.
7 THE COURT: Probably is if he's going
8 in order.
9 THE CLERK: It's No. 5.
10 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Okay, 5. No. 6,
11 same. Thing we'll stipulate that it's an
12 admission. Court can read it.
13 MR. JOHNSON: Can you identify it also?
14 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Yeah, 6, I
15 have -- it says, "Goes to David Miscavige
16 for his September 1999 Laughable
18 No. 7, we would stipulate the Judge,
19 could admit it into evidence, and that one
20 says, "Miscavige Will Be Hanged in Effigy".
21 The other two seem to be duplicates. I
22 don't know whether they're different dates
23 or whether you meant to be duplicates.
24 (THEREUPON, A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
25 THE COURT: Hold on a second. One at a
1 time. When you two are talking to each
2 other your words are bouncing off each other
3 and we're not hearing you up here.
4 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: I have no
5 objection to the introduction of the one
6 that says "Pat" on the front page. Stapled
7 to it is a photograph.
8 MR. JOHNSON: May I ask you --
9 THE CLERK: That's Exhibit No. 8.
10 MR. JOHNSON: May I ask counsel if he
11 would agree that's a pictures of David
12 Miscavige on the second page?
13 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: If that's who it
15 MR. JOHNSON: I can ask this witness.
16 BY MR. JOHNSON:
17 Q Do you know David Miscavige?
18 A Yes, sir.
19 Q There's a -- whose picture -- on this
20 two-page posting, it talks of "Pat" on the first
21 page, whose picture, the head of whose picture is on
22 the second page?
23 A That's Mr. Miscavige.
24 Q David Miscavige?
25 A Yes, sir.
1 Q Go ahead, please.
2 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: And the next one
3 would, Madam Clerk, 9?
4 THE CLERK: Another affidavit of Rhea
5 Smith, one-page document.
6 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: You don't need to
7 put that in.
8 MR. JOHNSON: I don't need to because
9 she's here.
10 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: No. 11?
11 THE CLERK: No. 10 is three pages. It
12 starts out with "Exhibit D an Internet
13 message of 12/15 RE: Samurai Minton".
14 MR. JOHNSON: And the first page is
15 Mr. Minton with a Samurai sword.
16 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: What was the
18 MR. JOHNSON: Do you agree to that one?
19 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Yes, the only
20 thing on that one, Judge, is we disagree I
21 don't know if that's in front of you, Your
22 Honor, or not. It's a picket of Mr. Minton.
23 The "Bob Minton's Plan For Scientologists"
24 was put on by another. He did not do that.
25 So with that understanding, we have no
1 objection to this coming in.
2 MR. JOHNSON: I understand his point,
3 Your Honor.
4 THE COURT: Okay.
5 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: And lastly,
6 Judge, I have one -- no.
7 MR. JOHNSON: I think the last one is
8 the affidavit of Rhea Smith.
9 THE CLERK: Plaintiff's Exhibit No. 11
10 is Internet posting of 11/8 of the Lisa
11 McPherson Trust about a race. That's No.
13 THE COURT REPORTER: Judge, can I
14 assume they're off the record?
15 THE COURT: Yeah, if you two don't talk
16 up, she's assuming you're off the record.
17 MR. JOHNSON: Yeah, we are off the
19 THE COURT: All right. We're off the
20 record for a minute.
21 (THEREUPON, A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
22 THE COURT: On the record just a
23 moment. Mr. Johnson and Mr. Devlaming, I
24 have an affidavit of Rhea Smith. That's
25 Exhibit No. 9. Is that the one you all are
1 talking about?
2 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Yes.
3 MR. JOHNSON: Second page, Your Honor.
4 Does it say "IRC Log, Wednesday November the
6 THE COURT: No. Yeah, the third page
8 MR. JOHNSON: Oh, okay.
9 THE COURT: Third page.
10 MR. JOHNSON: Judge, since she's here
11 in person we can remove the affidavit and
12 not offer that.
13 THE COURT: You want me to do that?
14 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir.
15 THE COURT: Madam Clerk?
16 THE CLERK: Yes, sir, I'll take care of
18 THE COURT: Now what do you want to do
19 with these, you want to mark them for I.D.
20 purposes only or take them back in your own
22 MR. JOHNSON: The affidavits, I'll take
23 back, Judge.
24 (THEREUPON, A DISCUSSION WAS HELD OFF THE RECORD.)
25 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Well, Judge, if
1 that's all about downloading, I guess I have
2 no problem. However, my client tells me
3 that where it says "Minton" is not always
4 his entry. So on that basis of
5 authenticity, I object. I don't have any
6 objection that she downloaded it, but I have
7 objection to its authenticity.
8 THE COURT: Maybe he didn't write it.
9 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Yeah. When you
10 see Minton on the paper --
11 THE COURT: Which is noted in bold
13 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Right. When you
14 see that, not all of those are what he typed
16 MR. JOHNSON: I'll ask her to
17 authenticate it, Judge, if I may go back on
18 the record.
19 THE COURT: On the record.
20 BY MR. JOHNSON:
21 Q Miss Smith, do you see the document marked
22 in the upper left-hand side, "IRC Log Wednesday
23 November 3rd".
24 A Yes.
25 Q Tell me what that is and how you -- why you
1 printed it out?
2 A This is called a chat room where a number
3 of people can log in at one time and have what's
4 called realtime conversations where you type on your
5 computer and it's actually in this chat room. And
6 this is part of a log of one of those sessions.
7 Q How do you know that Bob Minton had any
8 part of it?
9 A Well Mr. Minton had logged in here. And
10 according to his E-mail I.D. that was him when he
11 logged in.
12 Q Say that again, please. He logged in
14 A He had logged in before where you see the
15 "Minton AFK", Minton AFK means, Minton away for now.
16 Or Minton -- yeah. Basically person's not at their
17 keyboard, away from keyboard actually. So they're
18 not really paying attention.
19 Then when he came in and said now as
20 Minton, generally that means a person is back in the
21 conversation. And then the next one down he says
22 "rehi", which is a way of saying hello.
23 Q And was this from the group that was being
24 used from your personal knowledge by Minton on other
1 A Yes. It's a chat room called
3 Q Okay.
4 MR. JOHNSON: I offer that in evidence,
5 Your Honor.
6 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Same objection.
7 THE COURT: I'll allow it in with the
8 note that where it says "Minton" that I'm
9 not going to automatically assume that this
10 was by this defendant.
11 MR. JOHNSON: All right, Your Honor.
12 Then I then offer in evidence all of these
13 exhibits since we have identified and
14 counsel has commented on it.
15 BY MR. JOHNSON:
16 Q And Miss Smith will you hand them to the
17 Judge? That completes that?
18 A Yes.
19 THE COURT: I've got 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8,
20 10, and here's 9. Were you attorneys
21 listening to me? I read into the record
22 what I have, okay? I think I've got 3
23 through 9. Now the witness tells me she's
24 sitting over here with another whole wad of
25 them. So what -- all right. I have through
1 10. Now what number do you have? 11?
2 THE WITNESS: I have 11, 12, 13, 14,
3 15, 16.
4 THE COURT: She's got 11 through 16
5 over there. I don't know anything about
7 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, our
8 copies aren't marked. I think we need to
9 get a marking from --
10 THE COURT: Okay. Here's what I'm
11 going to do. Folks, you all take a look at
12 what I have here, mark your copies and
13 everything. I'll be back in 5 to 10
15 THE BAILIFF: All rise.
16 (THEREUPON, A BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN.)
17 THE COURT: All right. Did we get the
18 paperwork sorted out.
19 MR. JOHNSON: Judge, I think we are.
20 We have admitted into evidence of the
21 postings, 4 through 10, and we have a couple
22 of others we want to proffer. We'd like to
23 proffer No. 11, which is the title at the
24 top, "Lisa McPherson Trust will be at the
25 Sciano Say No to Drugs Race". Do have that?
1 THE COURT: Any objection to that
2 coming in?
3 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: What number?
4 THE COURT: 11.
5 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: No.
6 THE COURT: Okay.
7 MR. JOHNSON: And then Judge, we have
8 just a few more. 12 was the affidavit, so
9 we skipped 12. You've given it back to me.
10 No. 13 is a posting. At the top it says
11 Minton 26 D Tex, which we would like to
12 offer as No. 13.
13 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: No objection.
14 THE COURT: Be received, No. 13?
15 MR. JOHNSON: Next is Page 11 marked
16 No. 14. At the top it says, "Shotgun is
17 Clean and Targets Are Ready NH".
18 THE COURT: That would be No. 14?
19 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. Any objection?
20 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: No.
21 THE COURT: No objection. Okay. No.
23 MR. JOHNSON: Says, "Weinberg and
24 Hertzberg, Legal Whores for Scientology."
25 THE COURT: Any objection?
1 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: None.
2 THE COURT: Be received.
3 MR. JOHNSON: No. 16 is two pages.
4 First page says Exhibit E. The second page
5 is "Apology Concerning Clearwater". This is
6 No. 16.
7 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: No objection.
8 THE COURT: Be received.
9 MR. JOHNSON: Yes. And also, Your
10 Honor, I'd like to offer at this time the
11 first Exhibit 1 which was the first tape we
12 showed you of the incident where --
13 THE COURT: I understand. Any
15 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: The first tape
16 was the --
17 THE COURT: First tape.
18 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: No objection.
19 THE COURT: That's received.
20 MR. JOHNSON: I'd like to offer the
21 second --
22 THE COURT: That was the picture of his
23 face? Oh, second tape. I'm sorry. I
24 thought you said -- go ahead.
25 MR. JOHNSON: Second tape is --
1 THE CLERK: No. 17.
2 MR. JOHNSON: No. 17.
3 THE COURT: Any objection?
4 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: None.
5 THE COURT: Be received.
6 MR. JOHNSON: And, Judge, I'd like
7 to --
8 THE COURT: What about that picture?
9 THE CLERK: That's already been
11 MR. JOHNSON: What number was it?
12 THE CLERK: No. 2.
13 MR. JOHNSON: That was Mr. Howd's
14 picture? Okay. And then another picture of
15 Mr. Miscavige was admitted as well. Judge,
16 I'd like to offer in evidence a brief
17 transcript of that tape No. 17 which, if I
18 may submit it to the Court, which would
19 enable the Court in understanding --
20 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Judge, just a
21 moment. I understand the Court's the trier
22 of fact here. The video's in evidence. I
23 have not -- I have never seen this. I have
24 not had an opportunity to put this against
25 the audio portion. I don't think it's
1 necessary. If the Court needs to replay
2 this, they can. But I object to any
3 transcripts being given to you of what was
5 THE COURT: I'll stand on the video.
6 MR. JOHNSON: All right.
7 BY MR. JOHNSON:
8 Q Mrs. Smith, there were certain names that
9 were in some of the postings that you gave. One of
10 them was the name David Miscavige. Who is David
11 Miscavige, if you know?
12 A Yes, he's the ecclesiastical leader of the
13 religion of Scientology.
14 Q Okay. And who is Loretta Miscavige, if you
16 A It's his mother.
17 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, at this time
18 all of the exhibits are in evidence, all the
19 postings are in evidence, and I would ask
20 the Court's advice of how to proceed.
21 Ordinarily I would have this witness read
22 each of these documents.
23 THE COURT: I'll read them. They're in
24 evidence; I'll look at them.
25 MR. JOHNSON: All right, sir. Judge,
1 with the Court's announcement that it will
2 read the postings and the record is clear
3 that the postings are in evidence, then we
4 will rest at this time.
5 THE COURT: Well wait a minute now.
6 Wait a minute. We've still got a witness on
7 the stand. Mr. Devlaming, do you have any
9 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: A few questions.
10 THE COURT: You may proceed.
12 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
13 Q Mrs. Smith, do you have all the exhibits in
14 front of you?
15 A No, I don't.
16 Q Okay.
17 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Can I have No. 7?
18R. DENIS DEVLAMING:
19 Q I'm going to show you what's been marked as
20 Exhibit No. 7. Did you pull that off the Internet?
21 A Yes, I did.
22 Q Okay. Do you know what it means when
23 somebody is hung in effigy?
24 A Yes, I do.
25 Q What is it?
1 A It means to make an imagine of them and to
2 burn it.
3 Q Like they might do a football coach if he
4 continues to lose football games, they hang him in
5 effigy? You ever seen that on the college campuses?
6 A No.
7 Q But you've seen it where they make a dummy
8 and they hang him outside a window in protest?
9 A No.
10 Q Have you ever seen someone hung in effigy?
11 A No. My only personal relationship of an
12 effigy is from a southern town. I know what it means
13 from a southern viewpoint.
14 Q Is it a form of protest?
15 A Yes, but it's a form of hate.
16 Q Well you don't necessarily have to hate the
17 football coach to hang him in effigy, do you?
18 A No, sir, but I've never seen that.
19 Q You haven't?
20 A No.
21 Q Ever gone to a Big 10 school?
22 A Pardon?
23 Q Ever gone to a Big 10 school.
24 A No.
25 Q Now also on No. 7 you will see on the
1 bottom of it, it says "Mark Bunker of" and then
2 there's a space and it says TV. Do you see that?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Do you know what word was whited out of
5 No. 7?
6 A Yes, I do.
7 Q Tell the judge what word was whited out.
8 A I'd rather not if I don't have to, Your
9 Honor. That's a confidential term for us.
10 THE COURT: It's what?
11 THE WITNESS: Confidential term.
12 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
13 Q Well I'll tell you what, Ms. Smith. I'll
14 make it easy for you. What was whited out was Xenu,
15 X-E-N-U; is that correct?
16 A Yes.
17 Q And Xenu is the evil galactic overlord
18 according to the Church of Scientology, correct?
19 A Yes, it is.
20 Q All right. And somebody whited that out
21 because they didn't want to see that word in relation
22 to a document, correct?
23 MR. JOHNSON: Your Honor, please. We
24 object to this line of examination. It's
25 certainly not any cross of direct and it
1 goes into the scriptures of the church, and
2 is certainly not relevant to this procedure.
3 THE COURT: Mr. Devlaming?
4 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: I'll just ask one
5 question, that is whether she redacted it
6 Judge, then I'll move on.
7 THE COURT: Please.
8 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
9 Q Did you redact this document?
10 A I probably did.
11 Q Why did you redact it before you gave it to
13 MR. JOHNSON: Same objection, Your
14 Honor. It relates to the scriptures of the
16 THE COURT: Redaction doesn't relate to
17 scriptures. She may answer.
18 THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
19 A Because I do not personally like to give
20 that term out to others. I find it a violation of my
21 ethical code.
22 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
23 Q Okay. So you removed it?
24 A Yes, I did.
25 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: That's all I
2 THE COURT: Do you want to ask any
3 questions in light of that? Redirect?
4 That's all right. Just sit down, Paul. Do
5 you want to ask any more questions?
6 MR. JOHNSON: Just one more, Your
8 THE COURT: Take your time.
9 MR. JOHNSON: I have no other
10 questions, Your Honor.
11 THE COURT: May she be excused?
12 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir.
13 THE COURT: Ma'am, you're free to go.
14 Have a good day. Thank you for coming.
15 MR. JOHNSON: If Your Honor please,
16 this witness having completed, all the
17 evidence that we have had marked having been
18 admitted in evidence, the Petitioner rests.
19 THE COURT: All right, sir. I thank
20 you very much. Mr. Devlaming?
21 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Judge, my
22 brother's going to call the first witness.
23 May I ask Mr. Johnson if he could be so kind
24 whether we could use his equipment?
25 MR. JOHNSON: Sure.
1 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Thank you.
2 THE COURT: Call your first witness.
3 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge,
4 Defendant would call Mark Bunker.
5 MR. JOHNSON: My agreement was a
6 conditional one. I assume you know how to
7 use this.
8 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: We do, yes.
9 MR. JOHNSON: Because Steve is here if
10 we need some assistance. We may be using
11 the equipment again. I don't want to have a
12 problem with it.
13 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: If he wants to
14 show us the start and stop, that's about all
15 we need to know.
16 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: In fact, I took
17 the liberty of the checking it out.
18 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you. You
19 understand my concern.
20 THE COURT: You were previously sworn,
22 THE WITNESS: Yes.
23 THE COURT: I don't remember everybody.
24 All right, Mr. Devlaming, you may proceed.
1 MARK RAY BUNKER,
2 WAS ADDUCED AS A WITNESS HEREIN AND AFTER BEING DULY
3 SWORN ON OATH WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
4 DIRECT EXAMINATION
5 BY MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:
6 Q Mr. Bunker, would you state your name for
7 the record, please.
8 A My name is Mark Ray Bunker.
9 Q Where do you live, sir?
10 A Currently I live in Los Angeles,
12 Q And how are you employed?
13 A I have been working for the National
14 Research Group, which is a market research company
15 that handles all of the movie studios in Hollywood.
16 I left that job about two weeks ago.
17 Q And what are what are you currently doing?
18 A Well I am moving here to Clearwater. I'll
19 be part of the Lisa McPherson Trust.
20 Q Do you have or have you had in the past any
21 contact with the Church of Scientology?
22 A I have this past year had many encounters
23 with Scientologists, and for the previous two years I
24 have had some connection to Scientology by providing
25 some information to the Internet community. But it
1 wasn't until this year around January that I actually
2 had any contact with Scientology and Scientologists
3 in person.
4 Q How did you first become interested in the
5 Church of Scientology?
6 A Well I remember seeing 60 Minutes had a
7 report back in the 80s about people leaving the
8 church and being harassed. I think that was the
9 first information I ever had about Scientology.
10 I knew that L. Ron Hubbard, a science
11 fiction writer, created it. I had become more
12 interested in finding out Scientology about --
13 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me. Excuse me.
14 If Your Honor please, I object unless they
15 first lay the proper predicate by showing
16 what Church of Scientology he's talking
17 about. In the petition for injunction we
18 talked about Church of Scientology in
19 Clearwater, which is the Church of
20 Scientology Flag Service Organization. And
21 any discussion of Scientology elsewhere in
22 the world when we're relating to this
23 particular injunction sought is not
25 So I don't know if we need to be
1 talking about Flag Service Organization here
2 this Clearwater or somewhere in Los Angeles.
3 THE COURT: All right. Two things:
4 One, please Mr. Devlaming, see if we can be
5 a little more specific about just what he's
6 talking about. And -- well, let's see where
7 we'll go with that.
8 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, if I
10 THE COURT: You may, sir.
11 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: I'm giving this
12 information by way of background just to
13 give you some idea --
14 THE COURT: I'll see where this is
15 going. Let's try and narrow it in.
16 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Okay.
17 BY MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:
18 Q Mr. Bunker did you have occasion to come in
19 contact with the Church of Scientology out in Los
20 Angeles in March of this year?
21 A Yes, I did. In March -- specifically March
22 13th and 14th there was a picket of the church orgs
23 on L. Ron Hubbard Way, which is their main org and
24 the celebrity center, which where all of the
25 entertainment Scientologists go to take their
1 auditing. It's also a luxury hotel. And on the
2 14th --
3 MR. JOHNSON: I'm sorry. I thought you
4 had come to a stopping point. If Your Honor
5 please, it's obvious he's talking about
6 something that happened 3,000 miles away in
7 Los Angeles earlier this year, was it?
8 THE WITNESS: This year.
9 MR. JOHNSON: That has no materiality
10 whatsoever to what happened on the streets
11 of Clearwater, which is evidenced by the
12 testimony, an officer, the victim, and also
13 by video. And this has absolutely -- and
14 also they have not shown that Mr. Minton was
15 even present during this picketing that he's
16 referring to now.
17 So they've not laid a proper predicate
18 by showing how it's material to this issue,
19 and also that Mr. Minton was there.
20 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: May, I sir?
21 THE COURT: Yes.
22 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, this
23 particular witness is going to tell the
24 Court that he has taken some videotape,
25 which is relevant. Officer Jurat (sic)
1 testified on cross-examination that it was
2 his opinion had he been struck that like
3 manner he would not have gone to the ground
4 as Mr. Howd did.
5 This video will show the Court that
6 Mr. Bunker accidentally bumped into a member
7 of the Church of Scientology. That member
8 of the Church of Scientology called the
9 police department, had them come down and
10 actually misrepresented what occurred and
11 represented to the police that he wanted a
12 copy of the police report so he could file
13 an injunction the next day.
14 And this is a pattern of behavior, the
15 further incidents on July 4th, 1999 in Los
16 Angeles, Mr. Bunker was again at a church
17 organization and was harassed by the same
18 person and again a feigned attack was
19 alleged by the church members. And
20 Mr. Bunker's video camera was moved to the
21 ground as was Mr. Minton's in Boston, and
22 false allegations were made.
23 My witness is here to show the Court
24 that this is a pattern of behavior by the
25 Church of Scientology to stifle and stop
1 anyone from anyone from opposition against
2 the church, and to deny this evidence would
3 be a miscarriage, Your Honor.
4 MR. JOHNSON: And here again, if Your
5 Honor please, he talked about the Church of
6 Scientology. There are many, many, many
7 church organizations. The religion of
8 Scientology is some 9 million members around
9 the world. And we're dealing here with the
10 Church of Scientology in Clearwater, which
11 is the Flag Service Organization.
12 Something that happened in Los Angeles
13 could not possibly have any bearing on this.
14 There's no showing that the same people were
15 involved. There's no showing Mr. Minton was
16 there or that he was involved, and I just
17 urge the Court to not allow this to come
18 into evidence because it's just not material
19 in any fashion to what we have here.
20 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, what I
21 would ask the Court is to view it and make
22 that decision.
23 THE COURT: I'll allow it in. I'll
24 handle the credibility. Please proceed.
25 BY MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:
1 Q Mr. Bunker, as we left off you indicated
2 that on March 13th you had contact with a member of
3 the Church of Scientology?
4 A Well March 13th there were many, many
5 people who had flown in from around the country to
6 picket the church. On March 14th, which is the
7 videotape we'll be watching, two picketers had
8 decided that they wanted to go back to the celebrity
9 center in Hollywood, and they asked me to come along
10 and videotape their very short picket, and I agreed
11 to do that.
12 What we're going to see first is some
13 footage I was shooting, a really nice fountain that's
14 on the grounds of the celebrity center. I'm outside
15 the bars on the sidewalk, and I'm shooting the
16 fountain. I leave the camera rolling as I step back,
17 and I don't realize while I've been shooting a
18 Scientologist has walked up behind me and is silently
19 standing right at my back.
20 MR. JOHNSON: I'm sorry. Could we
21 identify these individuals about whom which
22 you're speaking so the record will show the
23 relevancy and the believability of this
24 testimony and the materiality?
25 THE WITNESS: The two picketers
1 involved I know only by their Internet
2 nicknames. The one you'll see first calls
3 himself Don Knotts on the Internet.
4 Scientology does have a web page about
5 him at Parishioners.org where they have a
6 couple different names, but I'm not sure
7 which is the proper name. And in another
8 clip you'll see a Scientologist I only know
9 of as Elvis who is wearing a black T-shirt
10 that says "Scientology Kills".
11 In this first clip you'll see Don
12 Knotts and you'll see the Scientologist who
13 is wearing all black. I only know him as
14 Buddy, which is something that I called him
15 at one point. I said something about that's
16 right, Buddy. And he refused to give us his
17 name, so I've always referred it him as
18 simply Buddy.
19 BY MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:
20 Q Okay. We're going to watch this video in
21 segments, just as only a portion of what you shot
22 during the two instances; is that correct?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And we edited this video yesterday?
25 A Yes.
1 Q So there are things that have been omitted.
2 A Yes. The full video is on my Internet
4 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, if we
6 THE COURT: Proceed.
7 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
8 THE WITNESS: Do they have the sound?
9 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: I think the
10 sound will come in here in a minute. Oh,
11 yeah, the sound's not working.
12 THE WITNESS: No.
13 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Do we have some
14 sound here?
15 MR. JOHNSON: We're happy to assist,
16 Judge. I just don't want the machine
18 THE COURT: Is he here?
19 MR. JOHNSON: Is Steve here? Yeah,
20 he's here. Judge, we'll be glad to assist.
21 THE COURT: I'm going to take you up on
22 that. Thank you, Mr. Johnson. Let the
23 record reflect that you graciously offered,
24 and let's see what we can do.
25 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, are we
1 ready to proceed?
2 THE COURT: When you are.
3 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Thank you.
4 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
5 BY MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:
6 Q Mr. Bunker, did you detain at all that
7 person we just saw on the tape?
8 A No. At no point did I or my other two
9 fellow picketers detain him in any way. In the next
10 clip you're going to see that he not only is not
11 detained, but he is escorting Elvis to the end of the
12 block where Don Knotts and I are waiting.
13 We didn't think he was serious about
14 calling the police. We were just going to go to
15 lunch, and we thought he was just bluffing. We're
16 waiting for Elvis to come down and Buddy is walking
17 down with him.
18 Q Does he make any representations in regards
19 to the injuries he sustained?
20 A Yes. The injuries announced are going to
21 grow. He is -- in this next clip he is going to talk
22 about chest pain.
23 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: If we may, Your
25 THE COURT: You may proceed.
1 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
2 BY MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:
3 Q Mr. Bunker, what is the next segment you're
4 going to show?
5 A Well, after this we still thought he was
6 bluffing, so we just went down the street to a Subway
7 Restaurant and had lunch. And as we were leaving, I
8 saw Buddy standing in the parking lot with two police
10 So what you're seeing now is the two police
11 officers and Buddy and myself, but the camera does
12 not focus on any of them, because when the cops
13 arrived and I brought out the camera they told me to
14 stop filming. So I advised the officers I wanted to
15 have a record what was going to happen, so I kept the
16 audio on, but I pointed the camera toward the ground.
17 So you won't see their faces but you'll hear Buddy
18 and the police as Buddy claims that he never said his
19 chest was hurt, and he also asks for a restraining
20 order because he's in fear of his life from me and
21 also from Elvis, who you saw him casually walking
22 with in the last clip.
23 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
24 BY MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:
25 Q Mr. Bunker did you have the occasion to
1 meet again with Buddy, the man that we just saw on
2 the --
3 A Yes, I did.
4 Q When --
5 A It was a memorable night, July 4, 1999 on
6 L. Ron Hubbard Way in Los Angeles, and that is a
7 street, a very small block that has been renamed
8 after the head of Scientology, or the founder of
9 Scientology. They were having a street fair on
10 L. Ron Hubbard Way that was open to the public. At
11 least that's what it said on the banner above the
12 street for the week prior to the event, all welcome.
13 They also had information throughout the neighborhood
14 at restaurants and other stores saying please come to
15 the street fair. So I decided to come. And I found
16 out that "everyone welcome" did not include me.
17 Anyway, Buddy was there, and once again
18 Buddy started to talk about our last encounter, and
19 now his ailments start to really increase four months
20 after the event.
21 Q How did the actual meeting between you and
22 Buddy take place?
23 A When I was walking down the street, I
24 wanted to go up and just shoot the event. My intent
25 originally was to just go there, shoot about five
1 minutes of video to put on the website saying, look,
2 they're having a street fair, here's the little
3 carousel, here's the book signing of some new
4 L. Ron Hubbard book and it would be a pedestrian
5 piece to show people around the world what they were
6 doing at the event.
7 It didn't turn out to be, that because as
8 soon as I arrived Scientologists were there ready to
9 stop me. And I made it maybe a quarter of the way up
10 the block before Buddy came over to talk to me and
11 say, hey, I know you, you were that guy who assaulted
12 me four months ago.
13 Q Did something occur during that -- shortly
14 after that meeting in regard to your video camera?
15 A Yes. During this -- in this clip you'll
16 see Buddy telling us all of the problems he's had
17 medically since this encounter, this past encounter.
18 Also I am so amused by what he's recounting to me
19 that I say, thank you, that was great footage, and I
20 start to leave and I bump into another fellow who is
21 there. And instantly I'm surrounded by several
22 Scientologists who grab ahold of me and grab the
23 camera and point it toward the ground.
24 And at that point while they were holding
25 my camera down Buddy, who has come over to my right,
1 starts to fake an attack. You can hear him saying,
2 ow, stop that, things of that nature. I think you'll
3 be able to hear that in this, while I'm talking to
4 another person, who is the person -- the person who
5 is grabbing my camera, I'm asking what is your name.
6 Buddy's off to the side going ow, ow, stop it. And
7 it causes me to laugh because it's just so ludicrous.
8 But, you know, I now see how serious it is.
9 Q Prior to that incident actually occurring
10 did you make or Buddy make mention that he was going
11 to call the police?
12 A Yes. I believe so. But prior to him
13 saying that, though, prior to my arriving, I had
14 contacted the police and told them what I was
15 planning to do, that I was shooting a documentary on
16 Scientology, which is something that I'm working on,
17 and I wanted to find out from them that it was
18 officially okay for me to be there. And they said,
19 absolutely, it's a public street, it's an open event,
20 you have the right to be there.
21 And I called the police before arriving at
22 the location as they requested that I do, and they
23 were going to meet me there. But when I called them
24 on the 4th of July evening there were so many illegal
25 fireworks going off in L.A. they said, we're really,
1 really busy so it'll take a long time. And I
2 foolishly decided not wait for them and I started
3 down the block at that point.
4 Q But you did say to Buddy, you don't have to
5 call the --
6 A You don't have to call the police, I've
7 called them already.
8 Q Okay we'll look at this section of the
10 MR. JOHNSON: Could we have the date
11 this occurred?
12 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: July 4, 1999.
13 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
14 BY MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:
15 Q Okay. The last bit of footage we saw, that
16 was them coming into you and pushing your camera
18 A Right.
19 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me, Your Honor,
20 object to leading the witness.
21 BY MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:
22 Q What was the last piece of video that we
23 just actually saw?
24 A That was, as I described before, that was
25 them grabbing my camera, pulling it to the ground,
1 surrounding me and grabbing ahold of me. And I
2 really didn't realize the seriousness of it at the
3 moment. It was shortly afterwards when I realized
4 that Buddy was pretending to be in some sort of fight
5 that I realize just how foolhardy it was to be there
6 by myself.
7 Q We have one more piece of video to watch.
8 What are we going to see on that?
9 A This is shortly after the incident. I
10 decided to go to the end of the street and wait for
11 the police where I told them I'd be waiting. And
12 while I'm there, Buddy has been assigned to handle
13 me. He was the one who was supposed to stay with me
14 and try to chase me away, essentially.
15 So although he may have been in fear of his
16 life, he spent an enormous amount of time standing
17 next to me. And, in fact, when I would move, he
18 would counter to move with me. But in this clip his
19 injuries -- I bring up the fact that he said he was
20 limping and yet you can clearly see he's not limping
21 until I mention it; then he limps. You will also see
22 him holding his side from the supposed attack while
23 they were surrounding me. He's holding his side as
24 though he's in pain.
25 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
1 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, I have
2 nothing further from this witness.
3 THE COURT: All right.
5 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir.
7 BY MR. JOHNSON:
8 Q What is your correct name?
9 A Mark Ray Bunker, B-U-N-K-E-R.
10 Q And where do you reside?
11 A Currently I'm at 1173 --
12 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Just a moment,
13 just a moment, Judge. I'd prefer to put the
14 city on the record rather than his street
15 address. We have an --
16 THE WITNESS: They know my address.
18 THE COURT: City's fine.
19 THE WITNESS: Los Angeles, California.
20 BY MR. JOHNSON:
21 Q And what is your business?
22 A Well I worked at this market research firm
23 for the past eight years, National Research Group.
24 Q You're continuing to work for them?
25 A No, I have given my notice. I have left
1 them and I'm coming here to Clearwater, and I'll be
2 working for the Lisa McPherson Trust I'm proud to
4 Q And who pays your salary?
5 A Who will be paying my salary? The Lisa
6 McPherson Trust.
7 Q Who pays your salary?
8 A Excuse me.
9 Q Who pays your salary?
10 A Who pays my salary? The National Research
11 Group pays my salary until recently.
12 Q Well, I'm trying to find out what does
13 Mr. Robert Minton have to do with your income.
14 A Well, there is perhaps a more precise
16 Q Yeah, let's get really to the issues here.
17 What does he pay you?
18 THE COURT: Wait a minute, wait a
19 minute. There's a question on the floor.
20 MR. JOHNSON: All right. Yes, sir.
21 You're correct I'm sorry.
22 THE WITNESS: I'm sorry. What was the
24 THE COURT: His question was: What
25 does Mr. Minton have to do with your salary?
1 THE WITNESS: Well he's got nothing to
2 do with my salary. He has given me some
3 cash gifts over the past year.
4 BY MR. JOHNSON:
5 Q How much in gifts has Mr. Minton given you
6 over the past year?
7 A Well in March I received a check from him
8 Bob four or five thousand dollars. And just recently
9 Stacy Brooks gave me a check for 5,000 to cover the
10 move here to Clearwater to be part of the Lisa
11 McPherson Trust.
12 Q And when did you move to Clearwater?
13 A I have not yet moved to Clearwater. I came
14 here this week to start searching for a place and to
15 cover the upcoming Lisa McPherson picket.
16 Q Are you employed by Robert Minton to take
17 videos in various Scientology churches?
18 A No, I am not employed by Bob to do that.
19 Bob has made it possible for me to do that.
20 Q He's made at that possible to you?
21 A He has supplied me with some equipment, but
22 he has not paid me to do that.
23 Q Doesn't he also pay your air fare?
24 A Yes, on several instances he has paid for
25 air fare here to Clearwater. In July of this year,
1 the weekend after the incident you saw where they
2 surrounded me and actually grabbed my camera and
3 grabbed me, Bob announced, after seeing, that that he
4 would --
5 BY MR. JOHNSON:
6 Q Excuse me. Excuse me. Would it be
7 possible for you just to answer the questions? Now
8 My question was: Did he pay your air fare down here?
9 A Yes.
10 Q All right. And isn't it a fact that
11 immediately after you had that little meeting at the
12 4th of July party, you immediately came down here to
13 Clearwater and started scouting and videotaping
14 Scientologists down here within two or three days
15 after that occurred?
16 A Exactly one week after that.
17 Q Let me ask you this. When you were over in
18 California was Mr. Minton anywhere around?
19 A At that event, no. He was picketing in
20 Washington on that date.
21 Q And he has on a number of occasions paid
22 your air fare to come down to Clearwater to picket
23 the Church of Scientology?
24 A He has paid my air fare here twice, I
25 believe. The first time would be when I covered the
1 transit border hearing you were handling for the
2 Church of Scientology. I came down for that. Then
3 July he paid to bring me down here for that, because
4 Bob was coming to L.A. to picket on my behalf after
5 seeing the assault. Were all were coming to
6 California. And at the very last minute because we
7 were afraid the Scientology was getting movie permits
8 to keep us off all of their sidewalks and streets,
9 Bob decided at the last minute to take everything
10 there, so he bought me a ticket to come out here.
11 Q Were you injured in this little
12 confrontation with Mr. Buddy and with Mr. Elvis?
13 A No, sir. I was not injured in any way nor
14 did I file any type of assault complaint against
15 these people.
16 Q Were you injured during the time you came
17 down to Tampa or Clearwater to videotape
19 A My soccer career remains as stable as ever.
20 I have not been injured.
21 Q Who is -- whose funding the Lisa McPherson
22 Trust that you're going to work for soon?
23 A I am unclear of that.
24 Q Yeah. What salary have you been promised,
25 or what income have you been promised to work for the
1 Lisa McPherson Trust?
2 A I haven't actually worked it out fully. I
3 was not going to move here until Bob was arrested.
4 Stacy Brooks called me that night, just a few weeks
5 ago, and said we think probably it would be best to
6 have your camera here to ensure that these things
7 don't happen anymore. And I instantly said, I'll
8 come, without asking about any type of salary, nor
9 have I negotiated any.
10 Q Who have you discussed the Lisa McPherson
11 Trust and your duties with?
12 A Bob and Stacy.
13 Q But they have not outlined what your duties
14 will be?
15 A My duties will continue to be to videotape
16 events, such as the pickets that you've witnessed
17 here; to continue to produce documentary material to
18 expose the fraud of Scientology.
19 Q What figure has been mentioned that you
20 expect to receive from the Lisa McPherson Trust?
21 A I have not -- I've heard second-hand that
22 it will be 3,000 a month, I believe.
23 Q And who did you hear that from?
24 A From Patricia Greenway who had offered to
25 help me find an establishment here. And because of
1 such short notice, and I talked to her on the phone
2 about moving here, how I was going to find a place,
3 she offered to help, and I said, well, I don't even
4 know what I can get because I have no idea what
5 salary I'm going to be paid. So I don't know what
6 price range --
7 Q After you had the event on July 4th with
8 Mr. Elvis and Mr. Buddy, did Mr. Minton ask you to
9 come down here and do some videotaping for him?
10 A Well Elvis was not at the July 4th one. He
11 was at the March 14th. Bob did not ask me to come
12 here after viewing that. Bob and Stacy and others
13 were going to fly into L.A. after viewing my assault.
14 Q But did they do it?
15 A No. At the very last moment, like on -- we
16 were picketing on, I think -- starting to picket on
17 Friday. Thursday night he said, let's go to
18 Clearwater instead.
19 Q And where did you picket and photograph in
21 A We went to the Fort Harrison. And actually
22 Lieutenant -- retired Lieutenant Ray Evans gave us a
23 tour of Scientologist property, so we visited a few
24 different occasions.
25 Q Were you instructed by Bob Minton to harass
1 Scientologists or incite any type of action on their
2 part by comments that you made?
3 A No. I -- at no point has anyone instructed
4 me to ever incite any harassment. And I believe that
5 even the Scientologists who I have dealt with on
6 camera in the past have largely said that I'm a
7 benevolent, lovely, charming fellow.
8 Q When you were down here in June the 10th, I
9 guess, photographing Scientologists were you shouting
10 at the Scientologists, what are you crimes, what are
11 your crimes?
12 A Yes, I did do that. I was mocking what
13 they were doing to me the weekend before.
14 Q Now you're aware from your study of
15 Scientology what auditing is, aren't you?
16 A Yes.
17 Q You understand that auditing is pastoral
18 counseling and it's a religious act in the eyes of
19 the Scientologists?
20 A That is the claim of Scientology, yes.
21 Q And you understand that there are auditing
22 facilities in Fort Harrison Hotel right above where
23 you were practically picketing?
24 A I'm unclear exactly what is in the Fort
25 Harrison Hotel.
1 Q Don't you try to incite the Scientologists
2 to -- by criticizing their religion and their actions
3 in auditing to cause some kind of reaction on their
5 A As some type of reaction?
6 Q Yes. Well let me give you specific words?
7 A Okay.
8 Q And see if you remember saying this. When
9 you were taking your pictures out here in front of
10 Fort Harrison, didn't you say to one of the
11 Scientologists, did you fuck someone in the auditing
12 session? Did you do that?
13 A As a matter of fact, yes, because he was
14 saying that as a quote about Stacy Brooks, and I was
15 repeating --
16 Q Answer the -- excuse me. Did you do that?
17 A I was repeating his words, yes.
18 Q And did you do that knowing that that was a
19 very serious religious activity by the
20 Scientologists, auditing and pastoral counseling?
21 A No.
22 Q At the time you made that statement you
23 knew that was a serious act by the Scientologists?
24 A No. As a matter of fact, they themselves
25 had said it about Stacy and Stacy said some comment
1 back at them about that. And they said to her, well
2 is there something wrong with that, is there a crime
3 about fucking somebody in the auditing room. So it
4 didn't sound to them like it was anything major.
5 Q Wasn't it your intent to harass the
6 Scientologists and cause -- incite some type of
7 reaction from them so you'd get some photographs of
8 them reacting to your conduct?
9 A No, I was rather outraged by their behavior
10 and, you know, I just thought I'd ask them back what
11 they were asking of Stacy.
12 Q Is there any arrangement by Bob Minton for
13 you to live out in a house in Belleair that he's
14 proposing to buy?
15 A Oh, heavens no. That would be nice.
16 Q Have you been to the house in Belleair?
17 A Excuse me.
18 Q Have you been to the house in Belleair?
19 A No.
20 Q Have you seen any property that he's
21 purchased here in Clearwater?
22 A No.
23 Q And so your duties then as you continue
24 with your association with Bob Minton and his group
25 will be to videotape various members of the Church of
1 Scientology at various locations in Clearwater; is
2 that right?
3 A Well it's going to be far more than that.
4 We are -- but one of the duties that I'll have, I
5 assume, will be to continue to cover events. And at
6 these events I imagine more Scientologists will
8 Q Have you planned to cover the run against
9 drugs that the Scientologists are going to put on
10 this year?
11 A Yes, if I'm here in time. I have to move
12 here from L.A. and I help to be in time for that.
13 Q Are you aware that's a event in which some
14 800 runners come down, many world class runners, come
15 down to participate?
16 A I'm sorry. I have seen a little bit of
17 your publicity for it, yes.
18 Q Have you read about the Kenyan people and
19 the Mexican people that have come down here, world
20 class runners?
21 A I look forward to seeing them run.
22 Q Is it your purpose to interfere with that
23 activity as you did with the 4th of July picnic in
24 Los Angeles?
25 A I don't believe that it's an interference
1 to have a camera and record an event. It only
2 becomes an interference when you're surrounded by
3 people who taunt you and harass you.
4 Q Have you seen on the Internet posting by
5 Bob Minton what you plan to do and what type of
6 activities you're going to do at the December Say No
7 To Drugs Run? Have you all discussed that and did
8 you see that posting on the Internet?
9 A I heard that Bob had signed up to run. I
10 hope he's allowed to run. And I was simply hoping to
11 go and videotape him run. I think, it will be fun.
12 Q It's not your intention to interfere in any
14 A No, it's not my intention to interfere at
15 all. I wouldn't have interfered with the 4th of July
16 thing if people weren't surrounding me, making a
17 ruckus. They would have just seen a guy with a
19 Q It's not your intention to say vulgar
20 profane things about other peoples' religion? You
21 don't intend to that again?
22 A No, I don't believe I have done it, but I
23 will refrain from quoting that one particular person
25 MR. JOHNSON: Just one moment, Your
2 THE COURT: You may.
3 MR. JOHNSON:
4 Q Would you like to see the tape of your
5 comments you made here?
6 A Yes. I'd like to see it all in context,
7 but sure.
8 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, the only
9 request we would have under the rule of
10 completeness is that we would be allowed to
11 have the entire videotape played, not just a
12 segment of what Mr. Bunker is alleged to
13 have said. Because he's already explained
14 to the Court that this was as a result of
15 what was said to Minton, to our client,
16 Mr. Minton, about Miss Brooks.
17 MR. JOHNSON: Well, if Your Honor
18 please, they can play the entire tape if
19 they'd like, but I have a particular point
20 which --
21 THE COURT: Will you make it available
22 to him?
23 MR. JOHNSON: If we have it, of course,
25 THE COURT: Sir?
1 MR. JOHNSON: I've made everything I
2 have available to them.
3 THE COURT: Play your portion and then
4 they'll play their portion. Now this is
5 complete tape of the events or is this tape
6 already doctored?
7 MR. JOHNSON: Judge, we haven't
8 doctored any tapes.
9 THE COURT: Well, I mean has been
10 condensed. You know what I'm saying, Paul.
11 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Well the
12 minutes preceding this, I think will be --
13 THE COURT: Just a moment. Just a
14 moment. Is it all there?
15 MR. MARLOWE: Yes, sir.
16 THE COURT: Good. Okay. And I don't
17 mean to sit here for I don't know how long
18 it runs, but --
19 THE CLERK: Is this for demonstrative
20 purposes or is it being marked?
21 THE COURT: Well fits going to be
22 shown, it's coming in. It's going to have
23 to come in, and it'll be what number?
24 What's your next number? 19? It's for I.D.
25 19 now, and we'll move it in.
1 THE CLERK: I'm sorry, Judge, 18.
2 THE COURT: Are you sure now?
3 THE CLERK: I'm positive.
4 THE COURT: Thank you.
5 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: I don't think
6 that has sound. That's the broken one.
7 THE COURT: Well wait a minute. It's
8 my understanding we're going to get some
9 sound here.
10 MR. MARLOWE: You will, sir.
11 MR. JOHNSON: Judge, let me withdraw
12 the offer at this time until --
13 THE COURT: Say what?
14 MR. JOHNSON: Let me withdraw the offer
15 at this time.
16 THE COURT: We're proceeding. It's in.
17 We said we were going to go. Let's go. Put
18 it on the other machine.
19 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
20 MR. JOHNSON: Was that you on the film.
21 THE WITNESS: Yes, that is me.
22 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
23 MR. JOHNSON: Judge, that's the portion
24 I wanted to show. If they would like to
25 show any more of it, the tape is there for
1 them to show it either in their time of the
2 case --
3 THE COURT: Leave the tape so they can
4 have it, so they can show it.
5 MR. JOHNSON: Steve, do you want to do
7 THE COURT: Mr. Johnson, do you have
8 any more questions for this witness?
9 MR. JOHNSON: Judge, one moment.
10 THE COURT: You may, sir.
11 MR. JOHNSON: That's all, Your Honor.
12 THE COURT: Okay. Defense? It's your
14 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Yes, Your
16 REDIRECT EXAMINATION
17 BY MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING:
18 Q Mr. Bunker, Mr. Johnson indicated that on
19 one occasion you asked a Scientologist what his
20 crimes were, and you indicated that was a result of
21 your responding to something. What was it you were
22 responding to?
23 A It was a week before the second of July on
24 L. Ron Hubbard Way when I first showed up to the
25 street fair, a person named Dan Mernan (phonetic
1 spelling) who had picketed my home the day after the
2 event where Buddy tried to have me arrested for
3 assault. Dan Mernan and two other people came and
4 surrounded me and were taunting me, using Hubbard's
5 teachings to try to quiet me, to shut me up. And one
6 of their techniques are, what are your crimes.
7 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me. Excuse me.
8 THE COURT: Yes.
9 MR. JOHNSON: Apparently this was
10 something in L.A. that was not with the last
11 tape he showed. And I object to it being
12 completely irrelevant. These people, I've
13 never heard their names before, and he's
14 giving testimony L. Ron Hubbard's teachings.
15 This is completely irrelevant. It has
16 nothing to do with the assault on Mr. Howd
17 and the injunction we're seeking here. I
18 don't know where he's going, but it's
19 certainly irrelevant.
20 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, may I
22 THE COURT: Yes.
23 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge,
24 Mr. Johnson opened the door by inquiring
25 into this particular incident and what
1 precipitated it in his cross-examination. I
2 feel I'm entitled to --
3 THE COURT: Proceed. Proceed.
5 A My understanding is that L. Ron Hubbard
6 said anyone who criticizes the church is a criminal,
7 and all they have to do is find their crimes, and
8 that way you can stop them from criticizing the
9 church. So one of the techniques they use when a
10 Scientologist meets a critic is to taunt them with,
11 what are your crimes, what are your crimes. And they
12 did that to me along with calling me a drunken,
13 wife-beating child molester.
14 MR. JOHNSON: I object once more. Your
15 Honor, there's been no showing he's an
16 expert on L. Ron Hubbard teachings, and this
17 is clearly irrelevant.
18 THE COURT: Let's get back on track.
19 Let's move onto something else.
20 A But in any event, anyway, what he was
21 referring to and what Mr. Johnson was referring to
22 was a week later when I had the Scientologists
23 handling me, standing in front of my camera talking
24 to me, I taunted them with, what are you crimes, what
25 are your crimes. And they said, are you upset. And
1 I said, no, that's just what I heard from a guy last
2 week, I just wanted to see if it worked.
3 Q So that was part of a give and take dialog
4 at that particular --
5 A Right.
6 Q We just saw a portion of the videotape.
7 Could you explain what occurs prior to that?
8 A Yes. The two Scientologists that you see
9 in this video are here present today. We know them
10 only by their Internet names that we have given them:
11 Crock and Spencer. We believe that Spencer is the
12 first name of one of the Scientologists.
13 At any rate they were following us from
14 property to property on this date, which I believe
15 was July 10th of 1999, and everywhere we showed up to
16 show the CHR building or another property, these two
17 Scientologists would be there to handle us.
18 And at this moment we were getting back
19 into our cars to go to another location and one of
20 the two people, I'm not sure exactly which it is now,
21 came up to -- was it Stacy? Yes, I believe he went
22 to Stacy, and said that I understand that you fucked
23 Vaughn, here, her then husband, in an auditing room;
24 is that true. Stacy came up to me and said, I can't
25 believe what he just said to me, and trying to get
1 them to repeat it on camera. They wouldn't do so,
2 but they admitted when Stacy said that that's what
3 they said, I believe it was Spencer said, what, is it
4 a crime, is that so wrong, is that something bad.
5 And I was responding to the vulgarities that the
6 Scientologists had used and used it back at them.
7 Q And they initiated that --
8 A They did. I regret having -- I very seldom
9 use that type of language. I regret it's on film,
10 but it is -- it was in response to what they said.
11 Q The money that Mr. Johnson solicited from
12 you that you indicated you got from Mr. Minton?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Why was that paid to you?
15 A The check for 5,000 that he sent me in
16 March was because I was in deep financial distress.
17 Bob had invited me out to meet him and Stacy in
18 January. He had invited me to come to the cult info
19 seminar in Connecticut, Stamford, Connecticut. This
20 was the very first time I showed my face anywhere or
21 allowed my name to be known anywhere in the
22 Scientology fight.
23 I went there to meet Bob and Stacy. I
24 E-mailed them prior to that. They were in charge of
25 Factnet at that point. And they made a post on the
1 Internet about some of the things they'd like to do
2 in this coming year. I had E-mailed Stacy and said,
3 if there's anything I can help in the way of
4 multi-media, let me know, I'd be glad to.
5 Help. They called me and they invited me
6 out to this conference. I went out to meet them.
7 Bob had a digital camcorder with him, he handed it to
8 me. I spent the next week at the event videotaping
9 the different pages, the discussions that were being
10 held, different events at the seminar, and then I
11 came home with that tape and started to edit it and
12 put it on to the Internet on to the Web -- on it a
13 website so that others who couldn't attend the events
14 would watch it.
15 It's a very time-intensive thing editing
16 video and getting it on to the Web, and I had
17 neglected my regular job, much to the chagrin of my
18 boss who was getting irate this past year that I was
19 spending so much time with this Scientology fight. I
20 don't know if I really mean express it as a fight,
21 but in sharing -- in sharing this information about
22 Scientology. And because I had devoted several solid
23 weeks of time getting this cult info seminar on the
24 site I couldn't pay my bills. And Bob very
25 generously gave me the check to pay the rent. The
1 car was about to be towed away, so he helped me pay
2 my bills. But it was not a salary for doing the job.
3 Q But he did -- he paid you for you time and
5 A Well, he paid to keep me alive, but it was
6 not in exchange for an hourly rate of doing this type
7 of work.
8 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, could we
9 view the first portion of this tape the
10 minute or so before that?
11 THE COURT: Proceed. Proceed.
12 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
13 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, this
14 particular one is --
15 THE WITNESS: It's been edited.
16 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, I think
17 we're --
18 THE WITNESS: My videotape is complete.
19 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: This isn't a
20 complete tape of this, is it?
21 MR. JOHNSON: That's one they used.
22 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Right, one you
23 used, but it's not the complete tape.
24 THE WITNESS: I supplied you a copy of
1 THE COURT: Well give that to the clerk
2 right now.
3 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, I'd also
4 like to admit into evidence the tape.
5 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Respondent's
6 Exhibit 1. We are Respondent, Exhibit 1.
7 THE COURT: And the other one will be
8 18, which is theirs. Okay. Now talk to me.
9 What are you saying? Something's missing?
10 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Well, Judge,
11 this is the tape that was -- we have a copy
12 of, or similar to it, the same instance that
13 has --
14 THE COURT: Well play yours.
15 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Well except we
16 weren't anticipating this, and it's not
17 present in the courtroom. We'll have to go
18 get it.
19 THE COURT: All right. Are we through
20 with this witness? Any further questions?
21 MR. DOUGLAS DEVLAMING: Judge, I have
22 no further questions.
23 THE COURT: Mr. Johnson, you want to
24 ask any further questions of this witness.
25 MR. JOHNSON: No, sir.
1 THE COURT: Sir, can we excuse this
2 witness? Sit down. You can just stay
3 seated. Can we excuse him?
4 MR. JOHNSON: Judge, the only thing
5 that might be after the examination of
6 Mr. Minton could possibly be necessary to
7 exam him further. It's hard to excuse him
8 as long as --
9 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: He'll stay this
10 the courthouse.
11 THE COURT: Stick around. Thanks very
12 much. Okay. Let's do this. Take a short
13 break and we'll go to your next witness.
14 Remember I told you all, we're going to
15 press as long as we can until my first
16 person goes to sleep. And I'm trying to get
17 this done, okay?
18 All right call. Your next witness
19 please, sir.
20 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Respondent calls
21 himself, Robert Minton.
22 THE COURT: Now he has not been sworn.
24 ROBERT MINTON,
25 WAS ADDUCED AS A WITNESS HEREIN AND AFTER BEING DULY
1 SWORN ON OATH WAS EXAMINED AND TESTIFIED AS FOLLOWS:
2 THE COURT: Okay. I also wanted the
3 record to reflect when we started today I
4 stated that I had received a copy of
5 Mr. Howie's motion to modify the temporary.
6 I'm not sure I said it, but at least I was
7 thinking it. I didn't see a notice of
8 appearance, and my judicial assistant's
9 located the original of your motion, and I
10 have the notice of appearance now.
11 So we're ready. And just remember,
12 Mr. Johnson, to get me an order for
13 Mr. Hertzberg on his hoc v. Thank you all.
14 Go ahead, sir.
15 DIRECT EXAMINATION
16 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
17 Q Thank you. Please tell us your name.
18 A Robert Minton, M-I-N-T-O-N.
19 Q Mr. Minton where to you live?
20 A Sandale, New Hampshire.
21 Q And could I have your age?
22 A Fifty-three.
23 Q Mr. Minton were you involved in an incident
24 in the city of Clearwater back on October 31, 1999
25 wherein you were arrested?
1 A Yes, sir, I was.
2 Q Okay. Let me back up a little bit before
3 we go into that incident and ask you these predicate
4 questions. Mr. Howd stated in open court while you
5 were present that the church did not engage in any
6 harassment of individuals. Since you have become
7 involved as a critic of the Church of Scientology has
8 any harassment been leveled against you by the
10 A Yes, it has.
11 Q Would you try to chronicle some of those
12 things to Judge Penick? What types of things
14 A Well, the starting -- starting in September
15 of 1997, I received --
16 MR. JOHNSON: I'm sorry. Excuse me
17 just one moment. Your Honor, obviously he's
18 going back to 1997. We're dealing with an
19 incident that happened Halloween Night of
20 this year. And this is too far and remote
21 to have any possible bearing on these
22 actions we're dealing with here, and I
23 object to it being irrelevant, immaterial
24 and so far removed in time and place to have
25 no possible bearing on issues here.
1 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Your Honor,
2 you're going to have to make a decision in
3 this case how to fashion the rights of
4 Mr. Minton as defined in the First Amendment
5 as well as to Mr. Howd's petition. I think
6 it is relevant to determine this line of
8 THE COURT: Objection's overruled. You
9 may proceed.
10 A Going back to September of 1997 I received
11 a telephone --
12 THE COURT: Thank you very much. Bring
13 that forward. You were here before. You
14 know the rules. It's gone 'til after the
15 hearing. Sorry.
16 Anybody else want to try it? I can up
17 the ante. You can also spend the night with
18 me here. Please? Paul, turn that off.
19 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir, it's on
20 vibrate. It keeps me awake.
21 THE COURT: As long as I don't feel it
22 up here. Let's proceed. Go ahead.
23 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
24 Q Go ahead, Mr. Minton.
25 A In September 1997 I received a telephone
1 call from a gentleman named Elliott Ableson who is a
2 noted attorney for Scientology working out of Los
3 Angeles, and he basically at that moment started a
4 process of intimidation and harassment that the
5 Church of Scientology has continued nonstop up until
6 this present day. But what Mr. Ableson told me was
7 that my entire financial and family stability was
8 subject to being changed unless I backed way from his
9 client, the Church of Scientology.
10 I reported this incident on the Internet
11 about what transpired during the course of this
12 conversation, and within two weeks I received a call
13 from a lady named Mary Frances Newey who worked for
14 the Church of Scientology in Boston. In that
15 specific call she threatened to attack me she said
16 the church would attack me in five years areas unless
17 I stopped funding people who were involved in
18 litigation or fighting the Church of Scientology.
19 Q Tell us the five areas.
20 A My family, my children, and she
21 distinguished between family and children there.
22 Thirdly, my ex-wife, former business associates, and
23 my fifth area was my federal and state tax status.
24 Well, this was a fairly comprehensive threat. And
25 the very next morning from my house in Boston on
1 Beacon Hill both at the time my eight- and
2 ten-year-old daughters were followed down the street
3 by someone who I believe was working for the Church
4 of Scientology as a means of clearly trying to
5 intimidate and harass, not the children, but their
6 mother and father.
7 So these were the first real signs that the
8 Church of Scientology had lumped me into a category
9 called the suppressive person, which you've discussed
10 before. And the types of things that have been going
11 on in the last year to 18 months, you know, following
12 these incidents, you know, they've picketed my homes
13 in Boston and New Hampshire. They've leafleted the
14 neighborhoods. They've told people in leaflets that
15 I'm leading KKK-style demonstrations against a
16 peaceable religion. They accused me of religious
17 bigotry and intolerance.
18 And not only have these fliers been passed
19 around, they've sent letters, for example, in the
20 town of Sandale, New Hampshire, where I live, they've
21 sent at least two mailings to over 4,000 residences
22 documenting all sorts of allegations about me --
23 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me. Your Honor, I
24 apologize for objecting, but we're talking
25 about L.A., we're talking about Boston,
1 we're talking about New Hampshire, we're
2 talking about unnamed individuals, none of
3 which is relevant to the incident which
4 occurred here in Clearwater.
5 And I apologize for objecting, but this
6 is so far out in left field it has no
7 bearing, no relationship to what happened
8 when he struck Rich Howd. So I want to pose
9 that objection.
10 THE COURT: Mr. Devlaming?
11 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Judge, I think
12 we're about through with this area.
13 THE COURT: Okay. I was going to say
14 I've got the drift. I understand where
15 you're going.
16 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Okay.
17 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
18 Q Just one other question in that regard
19 Mr. Minton. Were you -- have you also been met at
20 airports, when you've flown into cities, by
21 Scientologists who have photographed you?
22 MR. JOHNSON: Objection, leading.
23 THE COURT: Sustained.
24 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
25 Q Okay. Have there been any instances
1 regarding your being paragraphed by members of the
2 Church of Scientology?
3 A Yes, I've been photographed, not only in
4 Clearwater, but every where I've flown to. I've been
5 met at the airports when I arrived to check in. I'm
6 picketed at airports. When I arrive at my
7 destination city, my hotels are picketed. You know,
8 this is part of a campaign by the Church of
9 Scientology to stop my First Amendment right to speak
10 out against their abusive practices.
11 Q After you began speaking out against the
12 church was there also one other incident where a dead
13 kitten was left on your doorstep?
14 MR. JOHNSON: Objection to it as
15 leading and putting words in his mouth?
16 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
17 Q Well are there any instances of direct
18 harassment that you could think of.
19 A Well, after I had helped this couple in
20 Seattle, Vaughn and Stacy Young, whose cats shelter
21 was attempted to be shut down by Scientology, about a
22 month later a dead cat was placed on my doorstep of
23 my New Hampshire home. My wife arrived there on
24 December 15th and found a dead black and white cat on
25 the doorstep.
1 MR. JOHNSON: Here again, Your Honor.
2 Excuse me, I'm sorry. Here again, this is
3 so far removed. You know, I'm a cat lover
4 myself, and I can't believe how this would
5 have any bearing of issue in this case. Who
6 left the cat there? What was his name?
7 What city was it in? That is so far
9 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Judge, it just
10 goes to the pattern of harassment. I'm done
11 with this area.
12 THE COURT: Thank you.
13 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
14 Q Mr. Minton let me ask you, when you came to
15 Clearwater -- well, one other predicate area. Did
16 you have -- well, let me -- when you were in
17 Clearwater on October 31st of this year, did you come
18 for the purpose of protest, among other things?
19 A It was a secondary matter of importance. I
20 had a more pressing issue at the time.
21 Q All right, but did you carry a protest
22 placard on October 31st of this year?
23 A Yes, I did.
24 Q Okay. And during the time that you were
25 carrying that placard was there ever a time where a
1 member of the Church of Scientology or members would
2 block your ability to walk up and down the sidewalk
3 area, would position themselves in front of you?
4 A During the -- there were two, just to make
5 sure we both understand this, there were two
6 instances of picketing at the Fort Harrison on
7 October 31st. One was immediately upon arrival from
8 the airport, and that was not the intention to picket
9 there. Then, but the people from Scientology started
10 following us from the airport and followed us into
11 Downtown Clearwater and we were on the way to the
12 Bellview Biltmore hotel to stay there and decided if
13 they were kind enough to greet us at the airport, we
14 would do a little impromptu picket.
15 And I was not actually picketing, I was
16 just photographing, but Stacy Brooks was picketing,
17 and nobody interfered with her right of passage
18 during that afternoon event.
19 Q Okay. Were there times including that day
20 as well as July 11th of 1999 where members of the
21 church would try to stop your ability to walk up and
22 down that public sidewalk?
23 A Yes.
24 Q All right. Now before we show you a clip
25 of that incident, let me ask you this. Let's talk a
1 little bit about the incident itself on the 31st and
2 then go to another clip and ask you about its
3 similarities. On the event in question, on October
4 31st, the Judge, has seen a videotape which was shot
5 down the street itself?
6 A Yes.
7 Q Can you tell us what was going on after you
8 went around that corner to the left going -- heading
9 west between you and Mr. Howd?
10 A Well, we had been out there for some period
11 of time. I don't remember how long it was at that
12 stage, but I was getting -- I was getting to the
13 point where I was tired of being hassled verbally.
14 Q What types of things was Mr. Howd saying to
15 you and how long was he there in front of you?
16 A Well, at that moment, that evening Mr. Howd
17 was saying nothing. Mr. Howd had been following me
18 all day long from the airport to Clearwater to
19 Belleair to Largo and back to Clearwater again.
20 THE COURT: Wait a minute, wait a
21 minute. You're telling me that Mr. Howd was
22 at the airport when you got in?
23 THE WITNESS: Well, I didn't see
24 Mr. Howd at the airport, but I saw Mr. Howd
25 following us later on the way to Downtown
2 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
3 Q From the airport?
4 A Yes, because we went straight from the
5 airport we were heading to the Bellview Biltmore.
6 And, you know, we just went through Clearwater to get
8 Q And he was behind you?
9 A Yes. And then we -- I think this is
10 important to put on the record here, because once we
11 did that picket during the daytime, Mr. Howd and an
12 associate of his, a woman, were following us from our
13 parking lot in a public parking facility across the
14 street from the Fort Harrison Hotel, they followed us
15 to the Bellview Biltmore. I did make a turn on a
16 couple of side streets near Morton Plant and we
17 appeared to have lost them.
18 But when we arrived at the Bellview
19 Biltmore, Mr. Howd was out -- he had parked his car
20 on Alexander Road and was standing out at the corner
21 of Alexander Road where it meets the entrance to the
22 Bellview Biltmore with his video camera in hand, you
23 know, filming as we came around the corner.
24 His -- as it turned out, his colleague, according to
25 the security guard at the Bellview Biltmore, later he
1 told us this when we went in.
2 MR. JOHNSON: Objection to hearsay
4 THE COURT: Hearsay sustained.
5 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
6 Q Don't tell us what somebody told you. Tell
7 us what you did after that.
8 A Okay. So we went to the Bellview Biltmore
9 eventually. I mean, we did stop the car outside
10 first on Alexander Road, and we photographed the
11 license plates of Mr. Howd's car, and this other lady
12 who subsequently came out from the Bellview Biltmore
13 parking lot, and we went to the Bellview Biltmore.
14 Q Okay. Now did you go back to the Fort
15 Harrison Hotel later that evening?
16 A Yes. That evening we did go back there to
17 picket, that's right.
18 Q All right. Tell us what happened on that
20 A Well, Mr. Howd -- the type of harassment
21 that I've generally been subjected to by Scientology
22 when I'm picketing changed a little bit. What
23 appeared to be the way to try to get Minton was to
24 stick this camera as close to my face as possible.
25 And, you know, with one exception Mr. Howd didn't
1 really say anything all day except for sticking the
2 video camera in my face as close as he could get it.
3 Q How close did he get it?
4 A At times it was, you know, two inches away,
5 you know. But it was as close as he could possibly
6 get it without, you know, getting into a pushing and
7 shoving with shoulders or something like that.
8 So, that particular evening, you know, we
9 had been out there approximately, say, 20 minutes.
10 You know, I was getting a little frustrated having
11 this camera put in my face all day, and I went around
12 the corner on Pierce Street to go back to our car,
13 which was in the Presbyterian church parking lot to
15 Now when we got around the corner, Mr. Howd
16 is around the corner, and he's getting closer with
17 this camera, and he pushes into me, into my picket
18 sign with his camera. And you hear --
19 Q Did he hit it?
20 A My picket sign, yes, yes. And he pushed it
21 into my chest. And when he did that, this foam core
22 picket sign cracked is the word that I use because,
23 you know, it doesn't break. It's foam core, so you
24 just hear a little crack if it splits. And at this
25 stage, I said to Mr. Howd, don't do that to me again.
1 And then I said, you know, I used an expletive, the
2 F-word. I said, F this, I'm calling the police.
3 And at that stage I turned around and
4 walked to the corner, which is where you saw this
5 incident where, this fixed camera was located. And
6 the reason you didn't see me in that fixed camera
7 picture is I'm obviously behind a post. But what I
8 had done is I had put my picket sign down on the
9 ground between my legs. This is a 20x30 inch picket
11 And, you know, it's down long ways between
12 my legs. The 30-inch side is up and the 30-inch side
13 down (sic), and I got my cell phone out to call the
14 police and I'm -- when I'm calling the police, you
15 know, I've got the picket sign still between my legs.
16 And, you know, Mr. Howd comes up on the right-hand
17 side as you can see in that video. And at that stage
18 I think then I said to him, you know, get away from
19 me, I'm calling the police. And I picked up
20 the -- out of frustration of this camera being next
21 to my ear, the phone where I'm going to try to talk
22 to the police, I pick up my picket sign and begin to
23 step out into the middle of the street, walking
24 across the street to the other side of Pierce Street,
25 and Mr. Howd comes following me. You know, I can see
1 him out of the corner of my eye that he's following
2 me. And I turn around and with the picket sign, you
3 know, I've got the 30 inch -- I've got the phone in
4 my left hand; I've got the 30-inch side of the picket
5 sign in my right hand. I turn around -- excuse me.
6 I turn around and I push it towards him and say, stay
7 away from me, I'm trying to call the police.
8 And, you know, obviously when I turned
9 around with the picket sign, you know, I'm pushing it
10 out because my hand is coming around, he's moving
11 forward. There's no doubt that there was a bit of an
12 umph in the sign there, you know. But I have
13 encountered a lot more hostile contact physically
14 than anything that I could see Mr. Howd was subjected
15 to by that sign.
16 Q And then he went right to the ground?
17 A Very dramatically.
18 Q And you're saying that that's an
20 A You know, I thought it was worthy of John
22 Q Did -- was Mr. Howd coming up on you when
23 you held that poster sign out?
24 MR. JOHNSON: Object to leading the
1 THE COURT: Sustained.
2 THE WITNESS: Well, yes, he was clearly
3 coming up on me.
4 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me.
5 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
6 Q What was he doing -- what was Mr. Howd
7 doing when you held that sign up when you came in
8 contact with him?
9 A He was walking towards me.
10 Q All right. Had you told him to get away?
11 A Yes.
12 Q Did you tell him to quit following you?
13 A I did.
14 Q Did you tell him you were calling the
16 A I did, at least twice.
17 Q And he came up on you anyway?
18 A Yes.
19 MR. JOHNSON: May I move to strike the
20 entire line of questions which are all
21 leading and putting words in his mouth and
22 his only answer is yes, which I think is
23 inappropriate testimony, move to strike.
24 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Judge, I object
25 to it being stricken. If we have to go over
1 it again we can, but he's answered the
2 questions. There's no jury.
3 THE COURT: Let's do this. I won't
4 strike it. Let's cut out the leading on
5 both sides. I noticed when we started
6 earlier today, but I stay out of it unless
7 somebody objects. So let's bottle up the
8 leading questions. Move on.
9 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Okay.
10 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
11 Q Okay. Mr. Minton did you at any time
12 intend to assault or hurt or harm Mr. Howd?
13 A No, I never did.
14 Q All right. Now you had been involved in
15 other protests where somebody puts themselves in the
16 position of being touched so the police can be
17 called, haven't you?
18 A I've been involved in many incidents
19 involving Scientologists in that case.
20 Q Okay. And have you brought a sample about
21 four minutes in length, actually less than four
22 minutes of length, that can show to Judge Penick how
23 that is set up by the church members so that a charge
24 can be brought and an injunction requested?
25 A Yes, sir.
1 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Your Honor, with
2 the Court's permission -- well, let me lay
3 this predicate.
4 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
5 Q Mr. Minton did you provide to me of which
6 I've provided to Mr. Johnson a videotape showing this
7 area of inquiry that took place on September 10, 1998
8 where we're actually going to see you in these -- in
9 this footage?
10 A Yes, I did.
11 MR. JOHNSON: What city or state?
12 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: In Boston,
14 MR. JOHNSON: Here again, Your Honor,
15 this is so far removed in time and distance
16 and persons involved that it's immaterial to
17 the issues of this case.
18 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Judge, I believe
19 it's going to show the pattern. It'll also
20 show how they are trying to take away the
21 First Amendment rights of Mr. Minton and in
22 an effective way, not only by the church in
23 this area, but also by the churches in other
24 areas, which I think the Court should take
1 MR. JOHNSON: And also, Your Honor,
2 counsel was nice enough to furnish that to
3 me and I have checked against our tapes and
4 there were some gray material, the portions
5 left out.
6 THE COURT: You have your tapes?
7 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. And I did
8 advise counsel.
9 THE COURT: You're requesting to play
11 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. I can show the
12 parts they left out.
13 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: No objection.
14 THE COURT: Let's proceed. Clerk's
15 informed me for purposes of our record this
16 is Defense Exhibit No. 2.
17 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
18 Q Mr. Minton, in this incident in Boston can
19 you identify that the individual we're going to see
20 here is a member of the Church of Scientology?
21 A Yes, I'm sure I will be able to.
22 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
23 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
24 Q That voice, is that a member of the church?
25 A That's the public relations director
1 for -- Frank Hoffman, yes.
2 THE COURT: Stop that just a moment. I
3 just wanted to be sure I understood. You're
4 carrying the sign?
5 THE WITNESS: Yes.
6 THE COURT: You're in the dark-colored
8 THE WITNESS: Yes.
9 THE COURT: And the person you're
10 saying is a member of the Church of
11 Scientology in Boston is the one that
12 appears to have a dress shirt on?
13 THE WITNESS: That's right and a tie.
14 THE COURT: Striped?
15 THE WITNESS: And yelling.
16 THE COURT: Okay. All right. I was
17 having a little trouble telling who was
18 yelling there. That's what I wanted to
19 clear up.
20 THE WITNESS: Yeah.
21 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
22 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
23 Q Now the same day you recall an incident
24 where the same individual appears to have been
25 touched and they immediately asked that the police be
2 A Yes, I do.
3 Q All right. Let's go ahead and take a look
4 at that. Let me just --
5 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
6 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
7 Q Now they're referring to the police?
8 A That's who I believe they were referring
9 to, yes.
10 Q Now this was an incident where you were
11 actually accused of hitting him with a stick,
13 A Yes.
14 Q The stick portion of your placard?
15 A That's correct.
16 Q All right. Now just before that stick
17 incident or the placard incident were you filming?
18 A Yes. As you saw, several times the other
19 gentleman who was in that picket with me, Jessie
20 Prince, we exchanged cameras. He was not really
21 familiar with the digital video camera, and I was.
22 So I took it over from him at one stage and then,
23 yes, I was filming just prior to the stick incident.
24 Q Okay. Just prior to the stick incident
25 what happens to your camera? What do they do to your
2 A My camera is knocked out of my hand. It's
3 on a neck strap, so it points down to the ground, and
4 I'm hit across, you know, sort of a roundhouse swing
5 by Frank Hoffman in the face. And that's not on any
6 film, of course, because my camera has been knocked
7 down, and the other guy who was filming, his camera
8 goes up in the air.
9 Q All right. Have you found instances where
10 they attempt to keep it so that you can videotape the
11 incident? Do they want it so that you cannot
12 videotape an incident?
13 MR. JOHNSON: Objection. Excuse me.
14 THE COURT: Wait a minute, wait a
15 minute. Sustained. Leading. No, no.
16 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Okay.
17 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
18 Q Let's take a look at this Mr. Minton.
19 Watch this.
20 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
21 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
22 Q I'm going to show this, but when they're
23 saying, "did you get that", "did you get that", whose
24 yelling that?
25 A I would have to watch that again. I didn't
1 pay attention then on that, who said that.
2 Q All right. But was that a member of the
3 church or -- well, let me go ahead and rather than --
4 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
5 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
6 Q All right. Whose this?
7 A Kevin Hall.
8 Q The man who walked up to you in a white
9 shirt and said you're a F-U-C-K-I-N-G mental patient?
10 A Right.
11 Q Whose that?
12 A That's Kevin Hall who is the -- he's the
13 guy who attacks psychiatry out of Church of
14 Scientology in Boston.
15 Q We also hear a statement on the tape where
16 he says, I killed, I think it was like 280 million in
17 psychiatric funds? Did you hear that statement?
18 A I did, yes. You know, Scientology views
19 psychiatry as an arch enemy and throughout their 50
20 years of existence has always considered psychiatry
21 to be Enemy No. 1.
22 MR. JOHNSON: Again, Judge, has nothing
23 to do with the case. Irrelevant,
25 THE COURT: That's sustained.
1 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: I'll withdraw the
3 THE COURT: Please.
4 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Yes.
5 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
6 Q The last aspect of the tape is in
7 Clearwater, Mr. Minton, and dated July 11, 1999 also
8 provided to opposing counsel. Was there an incident
9 on that day where the members of the church would try
10 to block the filming and block your egress down the
12 A Yes, absolutely.
13 Q All right. Take a look at this.
14 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
15 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
16 Q Is he a member of the church?
17 A I believe he is yes, he simply associates
18 them when we're here.
19 Q The individual that positioned himself in
20 front of you as you were walking down that sidewalk,
21 did you see him?
22 A Yes, I did.
23 Q Is this often done when you are conducting
24 your protest and exercising your constitutional
1 MR. JOHNSON: Well again it's putting
2 words in his mouth. We're talking about a
3 specific incident.
4 THE COURT: Sustained, please.
5 Sustained. Rephrase your question.
6 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
7 Q Mr. Minton you just saw a piece of film
8 about how you are, for lack of a better term, treated
9 as you are conducting your protest. Is that fairly
10 indicative as far as how you're treated?
11 A Usually what they like to do is put a
12 heavyset woman on the sidewalk because. You know,
13 she's a woman first of all. So automatically she's
14 in the right. But, yes, that's typical of the type
15 of behavior.
16 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me. I move to
17 strike that. What heavyset woman? I've
18 seen all these pictures. I haven't seen a
19 heavyset woman yet. I've been looking at
20 these for two weeks.
21 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
22 Q Where is this done? Who has done it?
23 A It's done in Clearwater that day October
25 MR. JOHNSON: There's so many cameras
1 there, and they certainly would have gotten
2 this woman in some of these cameras.
3 THE WITNESS: It's done in Boston.
4 MR. JOHNSON: But "they usually do"?
5 Mr. Howd hasn't done anything except get
7 BY MR. DENIS DEVLAMING:
8 Q All right. Let me just end with this
9 Mr. -- well, Mr. Minton, do you want to continue with
10 your First Amendment rights to protest against this
12 A Yes, I do.
13 Q And do you feel as if you have a right to
14 continue that protest?
15 A I believe that the Church of Scientology
16 harms enough people and that someone has to speak out
17 against the evil practices that they do that cause
18 harm to individuals.
19 Q Let me ask you one practical question. If
20 the Judge, were to fashion an order that allowed for
21 a certain number of feet to be stayed away from each
22 other based upon the way in which the church members
23 have acted toward you on the public sidewalks, do you
24 think that would work?
25 A No. Simply because not only on a public
1 sidewalk they would, you know, space people
2 appropriately so as to make it impossible for you to
3 go down that sidewalk.
4 But in other instances where they've gotten
5 injunctions against people, for example, Keith Henson
6 in Los Angeles, you know, the guy who got the
7 injunction just keeps showing up wherever Keith
8 Henson shows up.
9 Q And he stands within the requisite feet
10 of --
11 A In fact, the guy who got the injunction did
12 a citizen's arrest of Keith Henson after he chased
13 Mr. Henson down the street.
14 Q In order to get him to violate the
16 A Yes.
17 Q Thank you, Mr. Minton. I have nothing
19 THE COURT: Mr. Johnson, do you want a
20 moment or are you ready to go?
21 MR. JOHNSON: Would you give me a
22 moment, Judge?
23 THE COURT: I'll give you 10, but then
24 I gotta do something. Hold on, Mr. Minton.
25 Mr. Minton, sir, you're on the stand, okay,
1 and you're about to get cross-examined. And
2 the attorneys have asked for a few moments.
3 While we take this break, you can get down,
4 get a drink of water or go to the restroom.
5 But I ask that you not discuss this case or
6 talk to anybody about this case while you're
7 still on the stand. You understand, sir?
8 THE WITNESS: I, do Your Honor.
9 THE COURT: Do you have any questions
10 about what I've said?
11 THE WITNESS: No. I understand you.
12 THE COURT: Okay. And that includes
13 your attorneys right there.
14 THE WITNESS: Yes I understand.
15 THE COURT: You can get down, you can
16 go about your business, get some water or
17 something, but I'm putting you in a bubble.
18 THE WITNESS: Okay. I'm there.
19 (THEREUPON, A BRIEF RECESS WAS TAKEN.)
20 THE COURT: Mr. Johnson, sir, your
21 turn. You may proceed.
22 MR. JOHNSON: Yes, sir. I'm ready to
23 proceed. Judge, first I had announced to
24 you that on that Boston tape there were some
25 matters that were excluded I thought was
1 material, and I'd like to show some of the
2 excluded matters that are indicative of some
3 of the things that were excluded from the
4 Boston tape. Steve, can you come up and
6 THE COURT: All right.
7 THE CLERK: That will be No. 19, Judge.
8 THE COURT: Okay. 19 for the
10 MR. JOHNSON: Excuse me just one
11 second. September 10, 1998.
12 THE COURT: All right. Are you ready
13 to play? Play it.
14 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
16 BY MR. JOHNSON:
17 Q Mr. Minton, do you recognize those -- a
18 video of being in Boston on September the 109th?
19 A Excerpts from the Boston video, yes.
20 Q And who was the dark man with the stringy
21 hair, the one that had his face in the boy with the
22 white shirt's --
23 A Jessie Prince.
24 Q And he worked for you?
25 A No, he doesn't.
1 Q He accompanies you on many of your
2 activities; does he not?
3 A No, I wouldn't say that.
4 Q Has he accompanied you to Clearwater to
5 engage in demonstrations against the Church of
7 A Yes, he has.
8 Q Did you hear the language that he was using
9 to incite the Scientologists?
10 A Yes, but what you cut out was the fact that
11 he said that Kevin Hall said to Jesse Prince first
12 there, are you fucking Bob's daughters, my eight- and
13 ten-year old daughters. That's what got Jesse pissed
14 off at them.
15 Q Is it your technique or practice in trying
16 to incite to violence by making outrageous
17 accusations, sexually suggestive accusations against
19 A Not against Scientologists or anybody else.
20 Q Let me show him the picture of the Hey Mon
21 (sic) picket, Yo Mon (sic)?
22 THE COURT: Of what?
23 MR. JOHNSON: That's the way I
24 described it. It's tape No. --
25 THE CLERK: 17.
1 THE COURT: Proceed.
2 BY MR. JOHNSON:
3 Q This is November 30, 1998. Do you recall
4 being in Clearwater that date?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And was it your purpose to cause some type
7 of reaction that would incite some violence?
8 A No.
9 Q All right. Let's see the picture, and I
10 want to ask you about it, please.
11 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
12 BY MR. JOHNSON:
13 Q Is that Jesse Prince there?
14 A It is.
15 Q Just a second. Did you encourage Jesse
16 Prince to make those remarks against David Miscavige?
17 A No, I didn't.
18 Q Do you know what David he was referring to?
19 A David Miscavige.
20 Q And isn't David Miscavige the
21 ecclesiastical head of the Scientology?
22 A He's the head of the see org (phonetic
24 Q And were you encouraging Prince to suggest
25 sodomizing the head of the Scientology religion?
1 A No, I wasn't.
2 Q Did you remonstrate with him and tell him
3 he shouldn't make those kind of accusations in the
4 presence of loyal Scientologists?
5 A No, I didn't.
6 Q As a matter of fact, didn't you yourself on
7 that same date at the same time indulge in the same
8 type of attempts to incite violence on the part of
9 the Scientologists?
10 A No, I didn't.
11 MR. JOHNSON: Show him the rest of
13 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
14 MR. JOHNSON: Thank you.
15 BY MR. JOHNSON:
16 Q I don't know how it is in Boston or New
17 Hampshire. Don't you consider that fighting words?
18 A No, I don't. Especially when the man can't
19 hear you.
20 Q You were speaking loud enough for everyone
21 in the neighborhood to hear you; were you not?
22 A No, sir.
23 Q You intended for someone to hear that; did
24 you not?
25 A No, I didn't.
1 Q You were just speaking it out in just the
2 wide open spaces without focusing it on a particular
3 individual standing there with curly hair?
4 A There was somebody standing there 85 feet
5 away inside the garage at the Fort Harrison Hotel.
6 Q Isn't it true that there was a
7 Scientologist with curly hair standing right next to
8 you when you made that -- those fighting words?
9 A That's absolutely incorrect.
10 BY MR. JOHNSON:
11 Q Let's see it again just a moment. Let me
12 ask you to take a look at this. This is the part
13 with Mr. Prince. I mean, with Mr. Minton. The part
14 where Mr. Minton go forward, please.
15 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
16 MR. JOHNSON: Stop, stop, stop.
17 MR. JOHNSON:
18 Q Weren't you pointing at an individual
19 saying, look at that guy, he has curly hair? Didn't
20 you just see it on the picture?
21 A Yes, I could even tell you who he was and
22 what his name was if you'd like.
23 Q Oh, there was someone you were talking to.
24 A 85 feet inside the garage.
25 Q 85 feet away?
1 A I'd say that was approximately the
3 Q All right.
4 THE COURT: All right. Continue.
5 Continue on.
6 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
7 MR. JOHNSON: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
8 BY MR. JOHNSON:
9 Q So when you're saying fuck your mama,
10 that's why you got curly hair, you're saying there
11 was no one there to hear that, you were just speaking
12 out in the open space and not trying to incite
13 someone to violence?
14 A That's correct. That's what I'm telling
16 MR. JOHNSON: Continue on with that.
17 (THEREUPON, THE VIDEO CLIP WAS SHOWN.)
18 MR. JOHNSON: That's enough. That's
20 BY MR. JOHNSON:
21 Q Hasn't that been your practice throughout
22 your demonstrations at the Scientology institutes
23 throughout the country to try to incite violence to
24 try to create problems so they would -- the news
25 would descend upon it and there would be bad
1 publicity for the Church of Scientology?
2 A That's never been my intention whatsoever.
3 Q And have you instructed your cohorts that
4 you would like them to do the same thing, that's your
5 game plan?
6 A First of all, I don't have any cohorts as
7 you call them, and I've never instructed anybody to
8 do anything at all in connection with my personal
9 crusade against Scientology.
10 Q Let's talk about Mark Bunker. You saw that
11 tape that your attorneys showed in which there was
12 background dialog explaining what was going on? You
13 saw that?
14 A What do you mean background dialog?
15 Q Someone of speaking and saying, now here
16 shows what Bob is trying -- what Bob's facing, and so
17 forth and so on. You didn't see that?
18 A I don't recall what you're talking about,
20 Q In the tape that your lawyers showed on the
21 Boston incident in which you were charged with
22 striking someone, there was a background voice, not
23 among the participants, but someone was describing
24 what they were about to see. Do you recall that?
25 A That was prepared for my attorneys, I
1 believe, by Mr. Bunker yesterday.
2 Q So that was Mr. Bunker's voice in the
4 A That's right.
5 Q And he helped you edit that tape; did he
7 A He didn't help me edit it, no. It's Church
8 of Scientology's tape which was obtained from the
9 Boston police.
10 Q But he did edit the tape and reduced some
11 of the unfavorable comments made by you and Jesse
12 Prince; did he not?
13 A He did edit the tape.
14 Q All right. What is your relationship with
15 Mr. Bunker, Mark Bunker?
16 A He's just a friend of mine.
17 Q Have you given him money from time to time?
18 A I have, yes.
19 Q And have you -- have Stacy Young (sic) at
20 your request given him money from time to time?
21 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: Objection, Judge.
22 She's not been a witness in this case, has
23 no relevancy to these proceedings.
24 MR. JOHNSON: She was mentioned in the
25 testimony of Mark Bunker and I want to
1 verify this.
2 MR. DENIS DEVLAMING: If she becomes a
3 witness, Judge, it becomes relevant. What's
4 been paid to her is of no concern in this
6 MR. JOHNSON: Mr. Bunker testified,
7 Your Honor, on one occasion Stacy Young gave
8 him money and I just wanted to know what the
9 source of that was.
10 THE COURT: He did. He may answer.
11 THE WITNESS: In connection with his
12 moving expenses to Clearwater.
13 (END OF VOLUME I)
14 * * * * * * * *
This web page (and The Skeptic Tank) is in no way connected with nor part of the Scientology crime syndicate. To review the crime syndicate's absurdly idiotic web pages, check out www.scientology.org or any one of the many secret front groups the cult attempts to hide behind.
The views and opinions stated within this web page are those of the author or authors which wrote them and may not reflect the views and opinions of the ISP or account user which hosts the web page. The opinions may or may not be those of the Chairman of The Skeptic Tank. E-Mail Fredric L. Rice / The Skeptic Tank
As for the details of this or its enforcability, I have no further details.
Other third-hand reports indicate that the MFC and other onlookers cheered when the judge left the court, but the cult lawyers just looked solemn and silent. - Rob Clark