T/div>
Defending the cult - Part 4
The following consists of a great many messages I received, a few of which
I bothered to respond to. For the most part you'll notice that the cultists
begin their tirades without a shred of sanity or reason and then devolve
even further as their mistaken beliefs are debunked. Nearly every one of
them begin with mistaken assumptions and nearly every one of them attempt
to defend an evil which the Promise Keeper cult stands for.
A few of them devolve even further into mindlessly quoting from their paper
idols in "defense" of their bigotry. And a few of them are
utterly disjointed rants which exhibit a phenomena known among
psychologists as "verbal salad." Many claimants profess a vast
ignorance about scientific facts and, it seems, predicate their bigotries
upon their ignorance.
This is a lengthy section of the "Defending the Cult" series and
it'll be somewhat difficult to pick through as I've simply not expended
much effort fixing the formatting of the claimant's illiterate run-one
sentences.
From: Skalisty1 <Skalisty1@aol.com>
To be honest, I have no hatred nor animosity towards you. The fact that as a
skeptic you refuse to totally investigate both sides of this issue, only leads
to believe that you would rather judge a book by its cover rather than seeing
whats inside.
Andy
From: DONC313 <DONC313@aol.com>
now your going to make statements against me. I don't think ??????? My
statements were questioning your comments, without attending an event.
From: DONC313 <DONC313@aol.com>
That's right I am a christan and you are not going to lure me into your games.
God loves you, I love you (in christ) and will pray for you. Christans are
not perfect just saved by the grace of God, thru our Lord Jesus Christ. It
has been nice typing to ya.
Date: Sat, 06 Dec 1997 10:35:07 -0600
You're not very observant. You didn't get it did you? Oh, and by the way,
where is the part in my reply where I said we Christians love you? Does that
burn you so that you wouldn't even send it in your reply? Apparently, but we
do love you and you need to know there is a very warm and not so fuzzy place
that awaits you if you continue rejecting Jesus as Savior.
Rom 10:9-13
10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth
confession is made unto salvation.
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same
Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
(KJV)
Also speaking of hate spew, what about this Neanderthal accusations. It
seems it's all right for someone from the non-Christian community to call
Christians anything they want, but when Christians respond with something out
of the Word of God it's called hate! Of course I still won't play by your
rules. After all, as you believe, you were once a Neanderthal. That's not
what my rule Book says.
Think about eternity.
From: Rod Swift <rod@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
Dear Jay:
> I just want you to know that I stumbled upon your web address while
>searching for the Official PK address. Your words of criticism had no
>affect on me but to ** authenticate the Promise Keepers as being of God
>(whatever your belief; He was, He is, He is to come and homosexuality is
>an abomination to Him.)
I would like to ask you that if you believe God breathes life
into each and every one of us, why does he make some people gay
[see Science, v261, 16 July 1993, pages 321 to 327, and Nature
Genetics, Volume 11, November 1995, pages 248-256 where it
clearly shows the genetic linkage of a predisposition to male
homosexuality to locus Xq28 of the X chromosome in men] through
genetic predispositions?
Further, why should we believe an outdated book which is
continuously becoming less and less accurate? Why should we
believe the insane ramblings of some silly sheep herders or camel
fuckers over the living evidence of, say, me -- something created
by your supposed god 25 years ago?
> Promise Keepers along with other Christians loves homosexuals
Didn't your mother ever tell you that lying is not a nice thing?
I believe your bible says that false witnessing is wrong.
Rod "...ho ho ho and a merry Yule, as opposed to a pregnant chick
on a mule!" Swift :)
Date: Tue, 09 Dec 1997 09:28:39 -0600
I didn't even read your last letter. It seems you are in full rebellion against
God and his creation.Your wrong, God's right and your vulgar and empty e-mails
aren't welcome here any more and will be deleted upon recognition. Get right or be
left. Jesus loves you!
I've shared with you the plan of salvation and you've rejected what Jesus done
on the cross for you. It's out of my hands now. If you don't cry out to Him for
salvation, you will die without him and burn forever in hell while thinking about
the oppurtunity to receive the free gift that Jesus has for you. Just ask him to
be your Savior. I beg you.
Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997 14:54:00 -0600
I just want you to know that I stumbled upon your web address while
searching for the Official PK address. Your words of criticism had no
affect on me but to ** authenticate the Promise Keepers as being of God
(whatever your belief; He was, He is, He is to come and homosexuality is
an abomination to Him.)
**John 15:20-22
20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater
than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you;
if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.
21 But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake,
because they know not him that sent me.
22 If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now
they have no cloke for their sin. (KJV)
Promise Keepers along with other Christians loves homosexuals just
as we love Patricia Ireland. Actually we let Christ's' love flow through
us so that we can love as he did.
"Neanderthal's"
for Christ: WE LOVE YOU MAN!
Date: Mon, 12 Jan 1998 11:20:50 -0500
i do not agree
Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 15:54:49 -0500 (EST)
Dear Fredric,
I have just returned to the U.S.A. after a 28 year absence. I learned about
'The Promise Keepers' when they had their last big rally (?) a couple of
months ago.
As I am a person who had my marriage ruined by the Opus Dei faction of the
Catholic Church in Argentina (they are all wild eyed NAZI'S), what I've read
to date about the Promise Keepers sounds all too familiar. Only difference w/
Opus Dei is they hate Jews, and Blacks and Indians (South Americans who are
not of European origin).......l
Can you tell me, do these people have any kind of a foothold in the States?
Geraldine Toltschin
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:44:06 -0500 (EST)
Have you been to a PK rally? I think not from reading you letter.
Date: Mon, 01 Dec 1997 01:55:13 -0500
I was doing a research paper on Promise Keepers and I was looking for
resources on the internet. I discovered your questioning of someone
that attended a Promise Keepers event and I was appalled at your closed
mindedness of the whole situation. I have not yet attended a Promise
Keepers event that women did not attend and I have never heard anyone
talking the way that you described. Your accusations and constant
babbling about things you know nothing of is exactly why the Salem Witch
trials happened, your just someone trying to find something to hate
becuase you haven't found your place in life. Sit down sometime, read
the financial reports on the Promise Keepers sites, listen to the
messages that have been taped, and read their memos and creeds and you
will see that you were way off track when you were running your mouth.
-Lloyd Woods II
18 Year old studend attending Morehead State University
Xerox and DocSTAR sales representative
From: ARB1112 <ARB1112@aol.com>
please, a thousand pardons for not recognizing "your" rebuttals
as calm. as for me and my cult, please pray for me that i can conform to
a world of : everything is relative, and there is no right or wrong. that
would be kinda neet because as long as i dont get caught, whatever i do
is really alright. i'm not angry at you but i understand you have to put
me in that scenario so that you can do what ever your agenda dictates.
the ends justifies the means.
From: AMosciszko <AMosciszko@aol.com>
I read the first 2 paragaphs of your letter about PK and tears started to roll
down my face. It seemed apparent that you have an ax to grind.
Sir, You are so wrong SO WRONG.
From: Skalisty1 <Skalisty1@aol.com>
Well you are obviously and truly delusioned from the truth then if you will
spend no time actually tring to figure out the truth. My spelling and grammer
may not be perfect dear sir, but I beg to differ when it comes to being
illiterate and any other sort of metaphor you may try to derive. I never
claimed to be perfect and if you think you are, then I fear that you are worse
off than I imagined. Your lack of work only gives credit to your negative
thought. You want people to hand you stuff rather than work hard and discover
the true meaning behind the things you are so quick to give a negative cooment
about. In conclusion I believe that you are, subconciously, truly afraid that
if you actually did some real research into what you so quicly put down you
might come away a changed person. I believe you probobly couldn't handle
that.
Best Regards
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 12:15:29 -0500
I read you commentary regarding the Promise Keeper movement on the
internet. I'm curious, are you so angry at this group's attempt to
(mis)interpret the Bible or is your rhetoric aimed more direclty at
the Bible and God himself.
I couldn't help but notice that 'venom just drips off the page' in your
commentary. It's interesting that you're expressing such hatred toward
this group; the very same thing you're accusing them of. What a novel
idea. (That works for a lot of people)
Perhaps you could tackle this one. Which can inflict more hatred, pain,
and suffering, lies and propaganda or the truth?
You've convinced me that Promise Keepers is an organization, led by
sinners, searching for God's will.
My comments aren't about the argument over the ordination or evilness of
this organization. Rather it's how you choose to respond to them. Even
little children scream bloody murder when they're told that they can't
eat candy all the time.
Thanks for your time. Take care.
Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1982 08:34:12 -0800
Dear sir,
Have you updated this site recently? Your off based remarks and WAY off
the mark attacks against PK and its members are almost comical, if you
wern't as educated as you appear to be. I would sincerely like to engage
in a non-conforntational discussion of our foundations.
Anticipating your reply,
Date: Fri, 21 Nov 1997 14:16:24 -0500
You speak of the thousands of other Gods. There is only one God who said
not to put any other Gods before him. So the relevance of the other Gods
is immaterial. The God in whom I put my faith, is also the only God to
state that eternal life is only accessable through Him. The cost of not
believing to be eternal damnation. That still works out to 50-50 on my
calculator. So if I'm willfully ignorant, superstitious and wrong....
What's to lose? If I'm right however, I've gained everything.
As far as cursing you? Whyever would I? You seem a nice enough person..
We just happen to see things differently is all. Life is certainly the
more interesting for all these differences. Have a good week-end.
>> What dictionary are looking in??
Date: Wed, 12 Nov 1997 14:09:58 -0500
I'm too tired of trying to survive this game called life to waste such
effort trying to 'beat up' on anyone. It would seem that you've found
plenty of free time to persue such activities.
Simply put I hope you resolve your situation in an acceptable manner...
>> I would challenge
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 23:29:13 -0500
I am a "knuckle dragger", who has learned through Promise Keepers to
always strive to put my girlfriend needs before my own. To think of her
first, to repect her, and we do have an eual partnership. It is very
dangerous to stereotype, and not fair classify this group of men as
"knuckle draggers". I have done extensive research on NOW, and have
found they do the same. Although, it can be said that NOW members are
"lesbian femanatzis", another dangerous stereotype. Several of my
friends are members of NOW, and we get along great...you may want to
rethink some of your stereotypes and generalizations.
Date: Mon, 10 Nov 1997 09:50:07 -0500
Brad Fothergill
Date: Fri, 07 Nov 1997 13:14:56 -0600
Date: Wed, 05 Nov 1997 22:29:01 -0500
Fredric;
I went to the "Stand in the Gap" Promise keepers event and you could not
be any farther from the truth about the Promise Keepers. We love our wives
and children more than we love ourselves. It sounds like you need God un
your life and you can count on me praying for you.
Tim Norris
From: ARB1112 <ARB1112@aol.com>
ps. do you dislike all christians or just promise keepers or men?, also sir
do you believe that the bible is true or is there some other source for inner
peace and happiness that is better than what the bible can 'supposedly' give?
Date: Mon, 03 Nov 1997 19:15:44 -0500
From: John Huther <golgotha@bellatlantic.net>
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: promise keepers
Fredric L. Rice wrote:
> jh> You insist on answering my questions with questions,
Fred,
A belief in nothing is a belief,to say that God does not exist is a
belief. You must have done some extraordinary research to come to such a
silly conclusion. All of your proof's -gravity,
relativaty, skepticism-all these thing's existed long before they came
along,that's not a creation,that's a discovery,and if people who
discover thing's are god's then the list would go on forever.
Let me ask this, where do you think we came from? Why are we here? Do
you believe in evolution? If you are an atheist then why mention odin
and apollo. You are right about one thing though,I do not know anything
about the gods, but I do know there is one true God.You yourself is
proof that God exist ,or did Einstein or Hume discover the human
body,the heaven's,the galaxies. The Wright brothers discovered the
airplane,Edison discovered the light bulb,are they god's to? Be for
real,what an empty life it must be to think that all to life is to get
up in the morning,go to work,come homeand eat,maybe go out with the
guy's for a while,come home and go to bed and get up the next morning to
do it all over again,what a fulfilling life.
Now let me ask you this,one does not wake up one morning and say that's
it, I don't believe in God,I don't believe in anything.What happened to
you that you came to that conclusion.Deny it if you want but something
happened to bring you to that conclusion.Well Fred thanks for the
compliment's. I'm just trying to talk to you ,not insult you.
2Peter 3 :9
He is patient with you,not wanting any-
one to perish,but everyone to come to
repentance.
See Ya Fred,
John
Date: Sun, 02 Nov 1997 13:52:13 -0800
Time to actually read the bible and find out what's actually in there.
Of coarse homosexuality is an abomination(read 1Corinthians 6:9-10)Actually
read it - and how could you even question it?
I'm not a member of promise keepers but was just browsing through some stuff.
I was just skimming some of your content and was shocked at your statement I
hope you don't call yourself a christian. Unless your one who just takes
what they like and discard the rest.
From: Ryan Linebarger <r_linebarger@wpusd.k12.ca.us>
God loves you, and so do I. Whatever you can say about God and His
people, will never outweigh the love that God has for you. If you would
so honor me, please respond so that I can share the "good news" with
you.
Date: Fri, 31 Oct 1997 18:29:33 -0500
Fredric L. Rice wrote:
> jh> You insist on answering my questions with questions,
Fredric,
odin and apollo-greek mythology- FALSE GODS-.Well then
Fredric,if that is what you believe where is the overwhelming proof of
your gods.Why don't you ask apollo what stock to invest in-he or she is
supposed to be a god of prophecy.I will ask you the same question,who
wrote your doctrine or dogma's?What proof did you have to come to
believe in them?You know of my doctrine and where I got it,what exactly
do you believe,I still have'nt received an answer to that question.Send
me a copy of your belief's so I can have a look at them .
God love's you to Fredric,
John
To: mmurdoch@flash.net
At 07:47 PM 10/25/97 -0500, Michael Murdoch wrote:
>Dear Sir, Are you a Christian? I am curious as to why you want to
That's the traditional Christian belief: Those who advocate equality,
tolerance, and equal protection under the law must be black, gay, female,
or some other minority.
No, you ignorant bigot, I'm not gay.
As for "wonderful Christian organization," The KKK, Aryan Nations, Church
of Jesus Christ Christian, the vbarious Identity churches et al. are also
"wonderful Christian organizations," huh?
Take your hatred and bigotry back to your church where it belongs.
Date: Sun Oct 26 10:23:51 1997
At 08:44 PM 10/25/97 -0500, sandy wrote:
>I was not shocked or amazed as I read your scathing criticisms and
I'm not interested in your hatered, bigotry, intolerance, and unfounded
accusations. Please take your homophobia and Christian fascism back to
your church where they belong.
Thanks.
Date: Sun Oct 26 10:29:15 1997
At 05:40 PM 10/25/97 -0400, Scott Marshall wrote:
>YOU need to meet your maker.
Have any evidence for this "maker" thing of yours?
>YOU WILL meet your maker.
Christanic vcoodoo threats don't work upon the better educated.
>When you do you'll want Jesus in your heart.
I doubt that I'll die from any corinary since my diet lacks the traditional
red meats and insoluable artifacts of contemporary foodstuffs distributed
among American society.
>If you don't you will be in hell.
Are you aware that the mythology known as "Hell" is a Germanic confabulation
of the goddess Hel who ruled over the kingdon where the old and the diseased
when after dying?
>It is as simple as that.
And you're just the simple-minded, gullible bafoon to believe it, huh?
>God Bless you, because no one else will.
Your hatred, bigotry, intolerance, and juju threats belong in your church, not
out in public where people can see them.
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 19:47:46 -0500
Dear Sir, Are you a Christian? I am curious as to why you want to
devote so much time to bashing a wonderful Christian organization? Are
you gay? Unless you are I cannot understand you attitude.
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 17:40:43 -0400
YOU need to meet your maker. YOU WILL meet your maker. When you do
you'll want Jesus in your heart. If you don't you will be in hell. It
is as simple as that. God Bless you, because no one else will.
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 09:32:13 -0500
I fail to understand why so many people have a problem with christion
men gathering together to sing God's praise, and promising to take a
more active role in their families spiritual growth. Why is it wrong to
promise to your wife, to love her, to care for her and give her your
oath that you will remain faithfull to her. Why is it wrong, to give
your promise to your brother, whether he is black, white, red, yellow,
or grey... that you will love him and respect him. Why is it wrong to
take God's word, as it applies today and fight the spiritual battle that
goes on in our world.
ahill@fsi-intl.com
Date: Fri, 16 Jan 1998 01:01:03 EST
Way to go. Nice to know you really read your e-mail, and personally respond
to it. I'll tell you what, if you can't personally respond to my e-mail,
instead of just sending the same thing, why don't you just not respond. You
don't seek the truth, only what fits your lifestyle. If you want the truth as
I have searched it out, e-mail me with an adult response and we can have an
adult conversation. If you can't bring yourself to do that, please don't
respond.
Andy
Date: Fri, 24 Oct 1997 18:24:44 -0600
Dear Fred Rice,
I am a Christian. I am a 27-year old, single man. I am writing to tell
you that I have been to 2 PK events, and have found nothing but honest
men devoted to following EXACTLY what the Bible states. You are obvious
not a Christian, and therefore do not live by the same guidelines I have
accepted for myself. Your entire article on your webpage doesn't even
begin to address the truth. We seem to be looking at each others worlds
from different ball parks. This is to say, that unles you live your
life as a servant to God, than you can never understand the truth in
serving those people around you. If you want to start a valid
arguement, please understand your opponents base of belief before
engaging in rhetoric yourself.
Most willing for discussion,
Matthew
From: "David Muir" <davidmuir@geocities.com>
>>Do you know what Chistianity is?
Hmm, you've done a better job than me. In fact I haven't read the whole
bible yet. I do try to read the Bible as much as I can, but it is not
always easy. As you have said, it does sound out dated and a bit hard to
believe in some places, but infact there are a lot of truths in it. David
(in the Bible) even expains how a rain drop is formed in one of the Psalms.
In the Revelation, there is mention that the earth is possibly round. That
there is night on one side and day on the other. However, there is no hard
facts supporting this.
>> In what you have written, almost anybody can see that you have no
I'm sorry for this insult and I now realize that you have been doing more
reasearch than what I though. Its just some of the wording that you use
that trew me of a bit. Why do you call Christianity a cult anyway?
Sincerely,
David Muir
PS: Who the other person you sent your reply to? curry@gte.net
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:35:39 -0700
jo> I am learning how to be a better father and a better husband.
rc> That's certainly a good thing.
Unless he's managed to convince himself that "taking back authority" over
the household and vieing for domination in the household. I could see how
a cultist might manage to convince himself that doing so -- justified with
deity constructs, of course -- would be "more supportive."
Of course if he's learned to be _EQUAL_ partners with his wife, more power
to him; America certainly needs to see more of that.
rc> I'm sure you can similarly support those men and women who
Most couples which experience marriage difficulties and desire recourse go
to professional marriage counsolers, of course, rather than run off with a
bunch of men to learn how to dominate their wives.
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 09:13:17 -0500
Hello Mr. Rice,
I found your page sort of interesting. How ever, seeing that you are
obviously not a Christian man, I don't expect you to understand the Will of
our God. There are thousands of men who think like yourself and you have
that choice to.
I am a member of Promise Keepers, and I find it so interesting how
supposedly educated people such as yourself make such comments on something
that you have formed your opinions from maybe just watching or reading the
popular media. If you were to attend a Promise Keepers Conference and
really listen to the message you will discover that we are not planning to
oppress women and "fags".
For example, I don't know much at all about the rocket ships NASA builds
to send astronauts into outer space. Wouldn't it be incorrect for me to
publish a criticism on the rocket designs NASA builds from just the
information I might have read in the press? Don't you think the rocket
scientist at NASA would wonder where I got such incorrect information?
They would say to themselves, "Where is this guy coming from. He doesn't
have any idea what he is talking about!". That is where you are at in
relation to the Promise Keepers.
Christianity is not a "Religion" other than it is a "Relationship" with
the Living God through His Son, Jesus Christ. The world sees us as a
religion. Of coarse I don't expect you to understand this. I was once not
a Christian, then I was told about about who Jesus Christ really is and
what He has done for the world. I review the evidence and I couldn't find
any fault with it. Today there is a Power living with-in me. I tell you
the truth, He is very real. And until you lay down your walls, you may
never know the Truth until you are standing before Him. You will think to
yourself how foolish it was for you to publish the criticism about
Christian Men.
Mr. Rice, God loves you, He loves the homosexual and He loves me. All of
us the same, none no more and none no less. God hates sin, not the sinner.
He sent His Son Jesus Christ to be punished and to be put to death for all
of our sins. The record shows that Jesus rose from the dead on the Sunday
morning following His death that was on a Friday night. Through acceptance
of His Son, you to can be totally forgiven and someday. Imagine this, you
and I could be praising God in His presence together in Heaven someday.
I call on the Power of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Jerry Michael Karlovich
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:24:46 -0700
jh> Mr. Curry,Thank you for responding. Your challenge
rc> No, I challenged you to provide _evidence_ that
Curiously, I've never known a fundamentalist Christian to ever twigg to
what the difference between proof and evidence is. When asked for evidence
they always seem to think they're being asked for proof of some kind.
I wonder if it's a matter of Christian ideology to deliberately
confabulate the two.
rc> I don't expect anything of substance from you, though, because
"When it's your religion, it's theology. When it's someone else's religion,
it's mythology." I think I read that in, "Mythology's last Deities. Since
it's obvious he would have presented evidence by now, it's a cinch he can't
come up with any.
jh> Let me ask you Mr. Curry, how did the world begin ?
How the Hell does someone "believe" in something that's directly observed?
Do you also believe in the theory of gravity, Robert? Do you also believe
in the Heliocentric theory?
Curiously this one forgot to ask _which_ theory of evolution he was asking
after.
rc> You appear to be confusing geology with biology. The world
About half a billion years, it seems, if the evidence of extremly old
organisms bears out.
jh> If so , how can explosions bring about order. When was the
<laughing!> Pretty freakish.
rc> You seem to be rather more confused than ever. Are you attempting
That could be what the poor guy is trying to rant about. He seems to
think that the Universe, taken as a whole, manifests some kind of order.
Somehow he forgot to be specific.
rc> Evolution, btw, has nothing to do with the origin of life.
My guess is that he has no iodea what evolution is and that he has been
told that it isn't observed.
jh> My reason for writing in the first place was because I sensed a
rc> Obviously you don't know and you are making wildly inaccurate
This "hatred of Christians" he believes he was "sensing" might be one of the
reasons why he's one of the more unusual Christians we hear from. Most sane,
rational Christians don't rant unthinkingly about evolution and "feel" that
strangers hate them.
jh> As for the name's of 3 or 4 scientist I will get back to you .
rc> Excuse me for being blunt, but I don't believe you will, John.
Now that you've called his bluff he'll run off and quote Henry Morris
and Gish. <smile>
jh> Mr. Curry, as for the denounceing of God, go to the skeptic tank
rc> Actually, no, I don't. Nor is the above very clear.
As I recall, it says "he sucks." This is in reference to the fact that
Christopher Columbus, upon direct instructions from the Christian gods,
failed to find his Westard Passage because his Christian gods lied to him.
jh> That sound's like a denunciation to me.
rc> It looks like gibberish. Did you hit the wrong keys on your keyboard?
I think that for religious reasons, he couldn't bring himself to type a
word. Pretty bizarre, cultist behavior, don't you think?
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 18:28:07 -0700
jo> I certainly can and do support them. I think a couple working
rc> Especially for those who do not subscribe to a paternalistic ideology.
If he's talking about the Promise Keeper cult, I fail to see how leaving
the wife at home and running off to meet with men to discuss how to "take
back authority" is "working together" or in any way a _rational_ way to
strengthen a marriage.
jo> However, I think they may find at some point in their lives, as
rc> Are you missing something?
And I can provide the name and telephone number of a good marriage therapist
in his area.
From: "David Muir" <davidmuir@geocities.com>
Dear Mr. Fredtic L. Rice,
Do you know what Chistianity is? In what you have written, almost
anybody can see that you have no clue about anything that has to do with the
Bible or Christianity.
Yours sincerely,
Date: Wed, 22 Oct 1997 00:27:09 -0700
I was looking around the net for some sort of info on the promise
keepers
There is a PK rally in my home town next week end and I was tring to
decide if it was what I was looking for. I came across your interview
with a PK member.
I was so upset I had to let you know, you went into that interview with
such bias, there was no way you could participate in an honest
discusion. You already had it your mind that the PK were a cult. That
might well be I have a few problems with the way they do things but when
I go this week-end ( and I am going just to try to get a true feeling
about what is really going on) they will already have some of my
support, because if you and your red-neck, close minded opinions are
against them then they can't be all bad.
DC
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 22:47:48 -0500
I really can't understand your point of view about the promise keepers.
You like to call them racists but they are not, many men from many of
many different colors where there. You like to thank of them as wanting
to totally subdue their wives, this is not true, a man and a woman
become one under the eyes of not seperate, the PK's follow the rule that
a man must adore and hold his wife to a high degree, and like wise a
woman must adore and hold her husband to a high degree. Homosexuality
is a sin, and christien men and women hate sin, we however do not hate
the person engaged in the sin. I would like to here your comments.
J.C.
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 1997 20:30:36 -0400
Fredric,
I must say I'm mystified by your comments. I have been to a PK rally,
and I watched the washington rally on tv. All 6 hours of it. PK is NOT a
cult, nor does it promote the ideas you have mentioned here. I suspect
the people you have gotten your information from were people like
yourself, non-believers in God, and hell-bent on ruining something that
is making most men that participate better fathers, husbands and in
general, better guys. Without oppressing or in any way harming their
families.
I am a Promise Keeper, and a Christian, and I do not support your
beliefs that I am a racist and a woman hater. In fact, I am exactly the
opposite. I am learning how to be a better father and a better husband.
I wasn't real bad before, but I am better now. More supportive of my
wife, and much more respectful of her feelings.
Get your facts straight before you go off on a tangent, Fredric...
Jim...
From: Skalisty1 <Skalisty1@aol.com>
As you point your finger at me, saying that I have hatred, realize that you
have 4 fingers pointing back at yourself. If you can't stop slinging insults
at me to make yourself feel better, please don't bother responding.
Date: Sat, 18 Oct 1997 20:44:50 -0400
Dear Mr. Rice,
I would like to present you with an analogy. Suppose you were 'nt
feeling well and went to the hospital, the Doctor runs some test and
comes up with a diagnosis. He tell's you , Mr. Rice you have a
suppurating lesion in the duodenum resulting in necrosis of the tissue,
and then he walks away. Your left there not understanding what he meant
. However , if you were a Doctor you would know that he just told you
that you have an ulcer. So it is with spiritual things, unless you are
born again from above, you will never understand. Yet not understanding
you have formed a very strong opinion on something you do not
understand. Is that fair, you denounce Jesus without ever having met
Him.
I challenge you to find out if He is real or not. Many scientist's have
set out to prove that God does not exist and have become believers. But
be warned , It may change your life.
Disciple for Christ
John
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 16:18:57 -0500
You have obviously never been to a Promise Keeper's meeting and I'm sure
the likelihood that you would is slim to none. How sad. You would find
that everything you have said and have written about is wrong. I saw men
that turned away from the KKK after hearing a "black preacher" give a
sermon on how ungodly it was to be a bigot. Thousands of men were taught
terrible things like the following... Love your neighbor as thy self,
Honor your mother and father, do unto others as you would have them do unto
you, don't commit adultry, love your wives, don't frustrate your children.
I guess you did not know these things were taught because these messages,
whether you believe in Jesus Christ or not, are obviously good. We are not
taught to hate people with different view points or religion. In fact, we
are instructed by Christ to love everyone. I am a soldier in our nation's
service and I can tell you that if you had seen the killing and murder in
Europe, you would soon see clearly the need for men to love one another.
Anyone who is against such lessons being taught and practiced I assume, is
for the opposite. Think about it and before you continue with such a
twisted view point, may I suggest that you go to a Promise Keeper's
gathering. If not, come to Bosnia with me and see the result of the
opposite of the Promise Keepers! SGT Vic Hash
From: TIM0587 <TIM0587@aol.com>
There seems to be a lot of hate and intolerance in your own life.
I'm often amazed at how ugly the "left" and the "right" are while preaching
about one another.
It's sad.
Tim
Date: Mon, 09 Mar 1998 13:26:39 -0800
I came upon your Promise Keepers site today, and I must say I am
disturbed by the strong language you used in both the titles of the
articles and the articles themselves. It only takes one second to see
which side of the debate you are on. I believe that husbands and wives are
equal partners in a marriage, and that neither one really has any more say
than the other. If two people truly love each other, they will always be
able to compromise and do what's best for both of them. I don't believe
that Promise Keepers is out to argue with that or to push their views onto
anyone. The goal of Promise Keepers is for men to be better husbands and
fathers. I think America needs a good dose of that. God does call the man
to be the SPIRITUAL leader of a household, but unfortunately not all men
are strong enough spiritually to do that, even christian men. And that
doesn't mean he's the boss, by any means. And before you call anyone a
cult, I would suggest that you look up the definition of a cult in
Webster's. Promise Keepers is not a deviant group, rather, it is a meeting
of christian men who follow the beliefs of the typical christian church.
It is merely another forum in which to get together with people across the
country. Also, last year the wives of many prominant christian leaders
started a "Promise Keepers" for women. The idea isn't too exclude anyone.
My guess at why it started with the men is, let's face it, men have a
harder time with commitment. I don't know why you've reacted so harshly to
the Promise Keepers conventions; have you attended one and thought they
were way off base? I saw on a tv news show how they sent a woman dressed
as a man into one of them, expecting to be able to condemn them more fully,
and when they interviewed her afterward, she had loved the convention and
it totally changed her views of what they were really trying to do there.
When she went in, she believed very much like you. That's really the only
fair thing to do, isn't it? Try it and see what it's really like before
you bash it.
Sincerely,
Date: Wed, 25 Feb 1998 09:23:53 -0600
There was a news story in Minneapolis awhile back about a baby who'd
been killed by her father's abuse. So what, you say? The man, a brute
with a record of battering, had gone to Promise Keepers awhile before
the death of the little girl and claimed that it had made him a
responsible person. The wife took him back and they had a baby girl.
The couple even named the girl Promise, after the man's promise to
reform.
The saddest thing about the story was that the man knew he needed help,
but, instead of going to a qualified therapist, he'd gone to Promise
Keepers, who, in my opinion, just validated his abuse and rage. I
consider Promise Keepers and their authoritarian, anti-female,
anti-diversity, pro-radical right wing ways, as guilty of murder as the
man himself.
From: "Green, Chris" <CGreen@cooksys.com>
Mr. Rice,
You are totally missing the purpose of PK. I am a Promise Keeper and I
am proud to say so. Our mission is not to make our wives submit or rid
the planet of minorities and homosexuals. We are trying to become the
men we were created to be. Men who honor their wives and children by
being a loving husband and father to them. PK is about responsibility.
If you would take the time to attend an entire PK event you might
understand this. Sound bites and speech fragments can easily be made to
reflect any meaning you wish. Take time to listen and you might learn
something. Your wife would love you for it.
Chris Green
Date: Thu, 19 Feb 1998 21:43:28 -0600
Friends,
I find the following Reuters news story truly sad. Promise Keepers has
many enemies (the enemies of God) but thousands and perhaps millions
of lives, families, and homes have been touched by this movement of
God. I hope this announcement is not a death rattle for PK.
Mark
Snipped from:
http://www.infobeat.com/stories/cgi/story.cgi?id=2552983022-a9b
Promise Keepers to fire entire staff of 345
By Alan Elsner
09:30 AM ET 02/19/98
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Promise Keepers, the male-only
Christian revivalist movement that has been urging men to take
charge of their families, will lay off its entire staff of 345
due to a financial crisis.
``Promise Keepers today gave its staff six weeks notice that they
will be paid until March 31 and no further. As stable and sufficient
donations are received, re-staffing will occur,'' the Denver-based
group said in a statement issued late Wednesday.
The decision came only four months after Promise Keepers
brought hundreds of thousands of men to Washington for possibly
the largest religious gathering ever held in the United States.
Founded in 1990 by Bill McCartney, a football coach at the
University of Colorado, Promise Keepers has been organizing
all-male weekend revival meetings in sports arenas for several
years, drawing 1.2 million last year alone.
The organization urges men to accept Jesus and become better
fathers and husbands by taking spiritual leadership of their families.
Previous, the group charged $60 for attendance at stadium
rallies and such fees accounted for 72 percent of income.
However, last year it decided to stop charging admission and
rely on donations alone.
``The new dependence of contributions has proved to be both
a financial and an operational challenge,'' the statement said.
McCartney told staff of the decision Wednesday. ``I have a
broken heart. But I don't have a discouraged heart. I have a
heart that is filled with hope,'' he said.
He said Promise Keepers would move to an all-volunteer staff for
an indefinite period.
Even at the time of its greatest triumph last October, some
observers said that Promise Keepers' appeal might have peaked
and could decline after the Washington event.
Attendance at its weekend rallies in 1997 had been
considerably lower than in 1996, prompting the move to end
admission charges.
The statement said the Washington event had been a drain on
resources and Promise Keepers was forced to use the
contributions it gathered around Christmas to pay millions of
dollars in costs. Donations in January and February had dropped
off.
McCartney said the group was still planning 19 stadium
events this year and called on church leaders to donate funds
that would allow the organization to continue.
``We have seen how God has used this ministry to change
men's lives and lead them back to the church. Now ... it is time
for those churches to assist us in our mission,'' he said.
McCartney has proved a controversial prophet and his
movement has aroused fear and suspicion among some women,
homosexuals and political moderates who say the group has a
hidden political agenda that is profoundly right-wing.
Opponents point to McCartney's links to right-wing
organizations and his past activism in groups like Operation
Rescue, some of whose followers have advocated violence against
abortion providers.
The organization is explicit in its fundamentalist agenda
and insistence that Christianity is the only authentic religion
and that all non-Christians are bound for damnation.
Date: Wed, 11 Feb 1998 23:59:47 -0500
Your site is wonderful. I am very alarmed by the organization called the
Promise Keepers. Extremist christianity is reaching dangerous levels in
our society and I salute people such as yourself for contributing this
thoughtful information as to their true nature. I am a practising
occultist and magickian and I am gay. These people are attempting (and
succeeding) to erode or rights and laws againt discrimination. Being
personally very knowledgeable of the inner workings of the sex industry,
I can tell you from personal experience, these "christians" are
hypocrits. They frequent adult book stores and massage parlors "doing
research..." and then picket those very businesses. They regularly
molest their children, steal from their employers and distort the truth.
All of this done in the name of God since they are "forgiven" and don't
have to obey "man's laws." They are beneath contempt. We must all do
what we can to expose their evil, please keep up the good work.
Peter
From: Almattpc@aol.com
Dear Mr. Frice,
Just a quick note to say keep up the good work. I don't know of any place
you can get this kind of information, except for the Advocate. I have
bookmarked your site and plan to return often. People must be blind, I think
to myself sometimes. What really scares me is that Pat Robertson sold that
family channel for quite a lot of money, at least that is what I hear. What is
he doing with it? Please post to your page what he's up to. I have always said
that if things get bad here, that we are moving to another country. Do you
think things will go that far? I know it sounds paranoid, but to me it is
something that sits in the back of my mind. It's funny how they they make
themselves out to be the victims, when gay people are killed and murdered all
the time in America. Do we here about it in the news? Of course you know the
answer better than me. And this Army of God thing. Christians in this country
seem more and more like Nazis all the time. Making themselves out to be the
victims, using lies and propaganda, especially film. Doesn't it seem that
America is asleep. What about AOL, helping to OUT a Navy officer, should I be
worried using AOL? I'm sorry to rant and rave but you have been a good
listener, and I needed to blow off some steam after reading some of your
articles. Thanks again. Matt.
From: "Critchlow, Jeff" <CritchlowJ@wellscti.com>
Sir, the rally on DC included all races.
Sir, in the bible, what happened to the cities who practised
homosexuality?
From: ARB1112 <ARB1112@aol.com>
The whole thing seems a bit much to understand....huh? Just hang in there pal,
as you mature, some things become easier to comprehend. Take care.
From: "john edens" <edensj@usit.net>
I'VE ATTENDED PROMISE KEEPERS EVENTS IN KNOXVILLE, TN AND WASHINGTON, D.C..
I CAN TELL YOU I FELT THE LOVE OF CHRIST AT BOTH EVENTS. THE WEB PAGE
YOU HAVE IS DECEPTIVE AND "TAKES CHEAP SHOTS." I'LL PRAY FOR YOU.
From: "Mark Hultzapple" <mrhultz@innernet.net>
Dear Fredric,
I hope you may change your mind as you learn more about PK and the good
effect it could have on our society. We as a nation need something to pull
us together. Everything going on today seems to be driving us all away from
one another.
It's obvious you aren't a reader of, or a believer in the bible and for
that I'm truly sorry. I sense a lot of hate in you life and I wish you
peace.
Mark
Date: Sat, 31 Jan 1998 12:15:08 -0500
Dear Fredric,
While I do not support the Promise Keeper's movement, I must point out
that your on-line article betrays your lack of understanding and study
of the group. However, I did get a chuckle out of your emotive rhetoric,
especially the classification of a typical PK as a "knuckle dragger."
Jeff
From: "Disciple" <Disciple@netins.net>
After reading your articles on your website I thought I would comment on
the content of your page from someone who has never been to a Promise
Keepers event and is not expecting to attend one in the near future. I
believe that everyone should a relationship with God on a personal basis
and that people should not feel that they nessarily need to congregate in
hords of men in stadiums to be Godly men. I know we are living in a time
when it is fashionable to see how many people you can influence or motivate
at a time. The real issue is what is your relationship to God. Hope to
hear from you soon.
William
Date: Sun, 25 Jan 1998 14:43:29 -0500
you got to be joking right?The no.1 promise of a promise keeper is to
Honor Jesus Christ.Talk to some of the promise keepers wives before you
say that they are beaten by promise keepers.If they are then these are
not true promise keepers.I am a promise keeper and I realize that it is
a process much like our Christian walk which,I might add,go hand in
hand.I will pray for you and your organization as I feel you are being
deceived and misled.Open your heart to the love of Jesus and the grace
of God Almighty and you too can enjoy a lasting peace and joy found only
through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Date: Wed, 20 Jan 1982 13:45:47 -0800
Fredric L. Rice wrote:
Hello Mr.Rice,
I just finished reading over the Promise Keepers articles. And
I'm left nearly speachless; where do I begin to stand and discuss these
nit-pickey shots?
I'll take on the "Neanderthal" attitude of the husband as the head
of a household. The PK Promise is to build a strong marriage and family
through love, protection, and biblical values. Are those bad ideas?
When it comes to biblical values and marriage, Christians are told
to love our wives as Jesus loved the church, having given up Himself for
Her. (Ephesians 5:25) Is this a bad idea?
Are those points specific enough for discussion?
Sincerely,
From: "Disciple" <Disciple@netins.net>
After a brief view of your web page I thought I would write to tell you my
views and to share a little of what I think about your site. I will begin
by asking you why you feel compelled to respond to a group of Christian men
who join together to encourrage each other to follow Christian teaching by
being responsible husbands and fathers? I myself am not married and I have
never participated in a Promise Keeper's meeting, but I have sponsered
others who having personal struggles in life and in marriage and those
individuals related that the event's were helpfull in strengthening both
persaonal lives and relations in thier marriages.
I don't know what your problems are but I am curious to know. From your
rhetoric I get the impression you have a problem not with Promise Keepers
but with God. Hey don't feel bad, It's an age old problem. Older than the
theory of evolution. Hope to hear from you.
William
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 15:38:07 -0800
At 14:43 1/25/98 -0500, Kyle and Rondi Buris wrote:
>you got to be joking right?
Do you usually start a sentence in the middle? Why don't you preface your
message with at least some indication as to what you are commenting? That
way one might enjoy a meaningful, reasonable discussion about what it is
that's bothering you.
> The no.1 promise of a promise keeper is to Honor Jesus Christ.
Not according to the cult's masters, no. It's hatred, intolerance, bigotry,
and subjecation -- all for the little woman's good, you understand, and all
justified by deity constructs.
I would suggest that you learn what the cult stands for and what it advocates
before mistakenly speaking about the cult with authority. I merely suggest it.
> Talk to some of the promise keepers wives before you
It is an artifact of the oppressed that they dare not speak out against
their oppressors and, in fact, express acceptance of their oppression as
"natural." That's why there's an epidemic of spousal abuse in America whetrein
the wife stays in the home regardless of year after year of physical abuse.
It's an interesting phenomena and one well understood by social workers.
> If they are then these are not true promise keepers.
<laughing!> The One True Cultist mentality. Lovely.
> I am a promise keeper
How unfortunate for you. When did you have the accident? You know, the one
where you lost your penis? The one that made you terrorfied of women, blacks,
and gays?
> and I realize that it is a process much like our Christian walk
Yes, the Nazi Goose Step. I've seen it.
> which,I might add,go hand in hand.
Yes, hatred and Christianity certainly go hand-in-hand.
> I will pray for you
You may think your hatred and resentment at me all you wish yet I can assure
you that your Christanic voodoo threats and magical incantations have zero
effect upon your intellectual and moral superiors.
> and your organization as I feel you are being deceived and misled.
Of course you do. That's part of the pathology of the cultist.
> Open your heart to the love of Jesus
Have any evidence for this "Jesus" Alpha Male construct of yours?
> and the grace of God Almighty
How many gods did you make for yourself?
> and you too can enjoy a lasting peace and joy found only
That would explain the death cult's bloody history, huh?
Date: Sat, 14 Mar 1998 18:41:56 -0500
Dear Mr. Rice, thank you for responding to my e-mail on 3-12-98. However,
I am not sure of what you consider "Hate" subjects. If you recall, I had
included in my e-mail some of the beliefs taught at Promise Keepers such as
love they neighbor as thy self and do unto others as you would have them do
unto you. These are certainly not hate messages. Having personally
witness KKK men turning away from a true "Hate" group and watching them
give Wellington Boon, the black preacher who spoke, a hug with tears and a
broken heart, I can't see what you see. Maybe we went to the Promise
Keepers meeting with different expectations or reasons. I went there with
a bit of a skeptical attitude but I did not want to disappoint a friend who
had very much wanted me to go so I went. This was in 1993 during the first
gathering at Boulder Stadium. I was stationed at Fitzsimmons. We arrived
there and we were met at the entrance by a gay group shouting some pretty
bad language at us even though we did not know them. Yet, what got my
attention was the response of the men walking by that not only did not seem
to take offense or react in a negative way, but spoke kindly. I saw a few
accept an invitation inside. The shouting and "language" was not returned.
Mr. Rice, I find a lot of "Christians" don't bother to read there Bibles
that they claim to believe in and hence, are putting out some very bad
information as well as doing some stupid things. This is not one of those
groups. If it were, I would join your group. I believe that God hates
sin, not the sinner. He sent His son to pay the price for all sin. I am
guilty of sin as sure as there is a day and night. I am commanded to love
my neighbor, not accuse him. Do I always walk the straight and narrow?
No, but I get better at it every day when I trust God to help. You stated
that I needed to escape this "cult". In the military, when one is
captured, it is ones duty to escape; however, one must be forcibly held in
some fashion, shape, or form. None of those apply. "De omnibus
dubitandum" was written by a philosopher who sadly believed that if it
can't be proven, then it doesn't exist. "No disrespect intended". How can
anyone prove or explain love, or explain one man sacrificing himself to
save another, or a mother defending a child from a male abductor twice her
size. I don't believe that one can believe in just the logical. With all
respect, there is a spiritual side to us. I believe you and I possess a
soul that will live on after our physical bodies die. Where our soul
spends eternity depends on our acceptance of Jesus Christ. I also believe
that God believes in the right of choice. No one can be forced to accept
Him and no one should try and cram "God" down anyone's throat. I have seen
some awful things that humans have done to other humans... Iraq, Iran,
Kuwait, Bosnia, etc. One could easily give up on belief of a supreme
being, and yet, the very people who went through and endured that hell,
still believe! That is beyond logic. If you don't believe that God
exists, Just go out one clear and cool evening and look up. An accident
that started with a bang? Maybe, but someone had to light the fuse! I
hope we can continue a dialogue. I am not offended by your beliefs and I
hope you are not offended of mine or my sharing them with you. Take care.
Vic Hash
Date: Fri, 13 Mar 1998 09:34:44 -0800
I have just read your message back to me concerning Promise Keepers, and
you suggested that I find out what they're about before drawing any
conclusions. As a matter of fact, my husband has attended two of their
conventions, and I also watched the Washington D.C. convention on CNN. It
is very open for anyone to see. Now if you have a problem with christian
doctrine, that's a whole different matter. That's what it sounds like to
me. As I said before, Promise Keepers does not advocate anything but what
the Bible and the typical christian church stand for.
You also said of Promise Keepers that they are racially and otherwise
bias. In fact, they devote a large portion of the day's convention to
racial harmony and reaching out to your fellow brother. That's what the
Bible teaches, that we are to love one another. I know that you believe us
to be intolerant when it comes to alternative lifestyles, and that may be a
fair statement. Our goal is to still love the person, but we just can't
buy into their lifestyles. It isn't natural, it isn't right, and it's just
downright wrong. Not that they are to be scorned, but to still be loved
for the PERSON they are, not their lifestyle. Obviously some christians
and others are not very good at the loving part. We are all human.
I think you are wise to be skeptical, because there are a lot of cults out
there, and they do sneak up on people before they can realize what they're
getting into. However, Promise Keepers is not a cult; they're goal is to
create better husbands and fathers and to pull people together, not apart.
The Bible has been so thoroughly proven to be true, and God gives such a
peace in your heart, one who knows God can hardly doubt. God is working in
an incredible way through Promise Keepers, although the message is still
the same.
Sincerely,
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 20:30:24 -0600
Fredric L. Rice wrote:
Yes, Mr. Rice
Where is your proof that Jesus did not exist--that he did not live and walk on this
earth--that he was not crucified for the sins of you and me--that he did not rise
again after his death, on the third day???? Unfortunately, you obviously have none
and frankly, I find that unfortunate. Some day, Mr. Rice, you and I will stand
before God--and what skeptics reasoning will you lean on then???
You refuse to acknowledge by challenge to you to read through the Bible for
yourself. Come on, Mr. Rice, what are you afraid of??? I have found that an
intelligent person will sit down at take an honest look at something before he
dismisses it--I know you would agree with that!
>From one sinner to another,
Dan Dooley
<P>Fredric L. Rice wrote:
<P>>> When you find any words which this "Jesus" of yours wrote, you'll
let the
<P>> A very good friend of mine reminds me constantly
<P>When you find evidence for your deity constructs, you'll let me know,
won't you?
<P>Thanks in advance.
From: "Critchlow, Jeff" <CritchlowJ@wellscti.com>
To all-
When the world ends, I hope to see all of you in heaven, rejoicing His
name.
----------
From: "Mark Hultzapple" <mrhultz@innernet.net>
Well Fred, I read your references and I still don't agree with your point
of view but that is what makes this country great, isn't it? We can say
what we think and not be tossed in jail. You obviously have strong
convictions and I hope you find what your looking for in your skepticism.
Take care and... give God a chance
Mark
------
Date: Sun Mar 15 11:03:06 1998
At 23:00 3/12/98 -0500, Critchlow, Jeff wrote:
> To all-
How freakish. Do you have any evidence for this "world ends?"
Do you have any evidence for this "heaven?"
And who is this "His" (sic) that you're refering to?
>>Sir, the rally on DC included all races.
fr> What "rally?" Don't you think it would be wise to not start a
Why no answer? Won't your masters allow you to answer honest questions?
>>Sir, in the bible, what happened to the cities who practised
fr>Cities are incapable of either heterosexual or homosexual activity.
Well? Couldn't you answer this question either, bigot? Or have you
been so poorly programmed by your cult masters that you can't even come
up with a suitable lie?
fr> What a freakishly disjointed message you've sent me. Amazing.
There's an understatement.
Date: Sun Mar 15 11:08:03 1998
At 22:22 3/12/98 -0500, Mark Hultzapple wrote:
> Well Fred, I read your references and I still don't agree with your
Most cults do, yes. And not always been cult followers and their detractors.
> We can say what we think and not be tossed in jail.
Unless the Religious Reich gets its way, yes.
> You obviously have strong convictions
Yes, tolerance, equality, love and understanding... these are the attributes
of humanity which are the things which stand between the health and safety of
the world and the evil which religon seeks to impose once again upon the world.
> and I hope you find what your looking for in your skepticism.
That would be reason, education, knowledge, reality -- just to name a few.
>Take care and... give God a chance
"Let's trust in god who has always fooled us in the past."
When you come up with some evidence for these gods of yours, you'll get back
to me, I hope.
>>>I hope you may change your mind as you learn more about PK and the good
fr> "Pull us together..." unless you happen to be female, black, or gay.
I note that your masters wouldn't allow you to address this fact.
fr> Might I suggest that you learn what the cult stands for and what it
A little helpful advice. You didn't take it, it seems.
>>>It's obvious you aren't a reader of, or a believer in the bible and for
>> Well, someone who can look at the evil Promise Keeper cult and pretend
Isn't it strange that you made a mistaken assumption, got corrected on it,
and then some how forgot to admit that you made a mistake? Isn't that also
something typical of cultists?
>>> I sense a lot of hate in you life and I wish you peace.
fr> Well, that's three mistaken assumptions on your part. You're at least
Now there's another understatement.
Date: Sun Mar 15 10:43:17 1998
At 09:34 3/13/98 -0800, Mindy Burch wrote:
It's always a good idea to discover what a cult is all about before talking
about its virtues, yes.
>As a matter of fact, my husband has attended two of their
Then you should have no excuse.
>It is very open for anyone to see.
And thus you exhibit your utter lack of knowledge regarding the cult. No,
the cult isn't open for everyone. The cult -- because of its black hatred,
intolerance, and bogotry -- excludes women and homosexuals and very nearly
excludes blacks.
As I said before, you might want to learn what the cult stands for before
your masters program you to spoout off about it.
Date: Sun Mar 15 10:39:14 1998
At 13:01 3/13/98 EST, ARB1112 wrote:
What are you ranting about now? The word "occult" has existed ever since
astrology existed, you idiot.
Date: Sun Mar 15 10:40:11 1998
At 13:01 3/13/98 EST, ARB1112 wrote:
Well look at that. The Promise Keeper cult is a cult after all. Are you
aware of "Hector's Law?" It states that given enough time a fundy will
debunk himself -- often with the same message.
Date: Sun Mar 15 10:31:51 1998
At 17:56 3/13/98 -0600, Christopher Archie wrote:
>Hello friend, The answer is yes I have .
Yes you have what? You didn't quote anything about which you were commenting
so there's no way I can determine what you're talking about.
> Its not so important that you spell correct
It is when you're talking through a typed media such as this.
>,however is important that you believe,
Believe what?
> Can you tell how the sun works,and why it does not burn out.
Yes. I can also give you suitable references for fusion physics which you may
look up in your public library. If you would like to divest yourself of that
ignorance, please let me know.
> Its faith my friend .
The Sun works through faith? Is that what you've been told to believe?
> Faith is the one element you must have to even see that GOD really loves us
Do you have any evidence for these Alpha Male constructs of yours? Before
you may claim what your gods love and what your gods don't love, what your
gods do and what your gods don't do, you must include evidence that your gods
exist first. After that _then_ you may start providing evidence for what
they love and what they don't love, what they do and what they don't do.
When you include your intellectual and moral superiors in with your delusions,
you must provide evidence. When you exclude your betters, we just don't care
so you need not ptovide evidence.
>I hope that you come to understand that he sent his son to die that you
Golly, just like Lord Krishna did 300 years before the "Jesus" god. And just
as Mithra did some 600 years before the "Jesus" god was created.
>Christ saved me from a burning hell where all who
Funny how those very same gods you've been given created the "hell" myth for
you in the first place, huh?
>GOD bless you and I will pray that you find his peace. Its real
Christanic voodoo curses have no effect on the educated, silly. You may
think your dark thoughts at me all you wish yet I can assure you that nothing
you think at me will cause me to lose my education.
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 01:18:27 -0500
OK, Fred, I'm back. Hide the children. Bolt the doors.
Of the many email exchanges you cc'ed in my direction, none caught
my attention enough to warrant further comment -- with a single
exception. The note by Mr. Hash summed up certain preconceptions
that I think need to be addressed:
If only that were entirely true.
Unfortunately those who hate themselves so much that they feel
they deserve to burn in hell unless a god executes somebody else
in their place are indeed "loving" others as they "love" themselves
when they spread the dogmatic hatreds taught to them by a cruel,
inhuman religious mindset.
Allow me to be the first to decline the so-called "love" of those
who would do unto me and mine the horrible things they
so unthinkingly do to themselves. It is not love; it is arrogance.
The Golden Rule in the hands of a self-righteously masochistic
believer is a terrible thing for innocent bystanders to suffer.
Apparently some individuals took out their anger at the flock
for following their PK leaders uncritically. It is well known
that Promise Keepers founder McCartney is anti-gay, so I fully
understand the reaction described above. I nonetheless consider
it inappropriate to lash out at those who have been fooled into
believing that their divinely condoned hatred is "love" -- most,
I believe, are quite sincere in thinking that they are doing
what is best for others by declaring without rational grounds
that the others are evil or that they do harm by loving one
another in a way prohibited in some old books reflecting the
social mores of an extinct nomadic society.
The sheep have been told that god disapproves of homosexuality,
and they believe that the shepherd is always right. So with
enough faith, hatred is spread thoughtlessly in the guise of love.
Ah, we could do with a little less faith and a great deal more
understanding.
>>I believe that God hates sin, not the sinner.
I wonder if Mr. Hash believes in a god that sends sinners (not the
sins) to burn in hell.
"Hate the sin, torture the sinner?" But to be perfectly holy, love
the sinner even while stoking the fires of hell. As the saying goes,
with love like that. . . .
>>I don't believe that one can believe in just the logical. With all
Pardon my brief excursion here into the patently obvious.
The emotional needs of human beings surely cannot be denied
or ignored without grave consequences. What amazes me
every time I run across statements like the above is that this
plain fact is still used as an excuse for believing in ghosts as
a sort of "explanation" for how it is that we are not merely
logical and rational beings, but emotional and intuitive as well.
Superstition is not a good answer, and certainly not the only
answer.
"I love, therefore I must be a ghostly soul hidden somewhere
secret within flesh and bone and brain." How many steps from
that to the belief that one can fart oneself into another universe?
Don't laugh. That might be someone's sincere religious belief,
and you would be guilty of religious "persecution" if you treat
the concept with sarcasm or humor rather than respect.
>>I believe you and I possess a soul that will live on after our
Again, don't laugh. Just because there's not a shred of evidence
to support that mindless acceptance of a comforting illusion,
it is his religious belief, and religious beliefs all deserve respect.
Don't they?
Then again, some religious beliefs conflict with others, and which
do we respect then? Consider the following, for instance.
>>Where our soul spends eternity depends on our acceptance of
That is blasphemy to a Muslim, for whom there is no intercessor
between man and god. Do we, as atheists -- as people without
any religious belief in the gods -- respect one but not the other?
By flipping a coin, perhaps? Or the old-fashioned way, by siding
with the most efficient killers in the battle between contradictory
faiths? No, we must learn from history instead of repeating it.
We cannot respect any superstition, no matter which we think
could be considered slightly less absurd, no matter which group
of believers behaves a little less irrationally than the others.
When it comes to belief without evidence in nonsense without
parallel, the best we can grant the purveyors of piety is our
honest assessment. Anything else would be deceptive.
>>If you don't believe that God exists, Just go out one clear and cool
Done more times than I can remember. I recommend it even for
those who may happen to harbor an irrational, unwarranted theism.
>>An accident that started with a bang? Maybe, but someone had
Likewise, someone else had to wind up the tin god and teach him
how to flick his bic. There is no end to this infinite regression of
gods creating gods creating universes giving birth to more gods
who create more universes. Obviously there are no answers
to be found by chasing religious ghosts through the metaphysical
mazes of make believe.
The universe is here; this we know. To postulate a god in addition
is to make up something extra without any justification. Gods are
what we humans invent in our ignorance to try to explain away
the unknown. But we don't have all the answers. The truly mature
will not say "God did it" but instead "I don't know."
The difference between a theist and an atheist is how long it takes
to make that honest admission. The world rests on a giant turtle.
Is it turtles all the way down? I don't know. Theists are those who
keep the giant turtle; atheists are those who do not.
So how does this difference affect us in the real world? Well, to
start with, it is hard to justify the spread of hatred on the basis
of "I don't know." If we don't know, then our feelings could lead
us to the wrong conclusions. Knowing that, we cannot condemn
someone as evil based only on a feeling. A secular person can
hate gays and homosexuality, and some do, but how much easier
for hatred to flourish under the illusion of certainty that comes
with the faith that "God said it; I believe it; that settles it."
Faith is blind. That's why it so often carries hatred along with
the rest of the cargo. The Promise Keepers are no exception.
---
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 20:45:31 -0600
Fredric L. Rice wrote:
As usual by your own words you condemn yourself. You hypocrital skeptics who
chose what you will and won't question--I will grant you I am not perfect, so we
will get along fine. Where's the proof guys---skeptic cultists of the first
order, who feel they job on this earth is to point out everyone else's faults. In
my life, I can honestly say I have read through the entire Bible several
times----and you, how many times have you read through the Bible. If you claim it
is not true based on following your skeptic idols, are you not what you accuse me
of--a cultist who thinks he knows everything about someone else.. You obviously
don't have the courage to investigate with an open mind on your own with out
following your skeptic gods who give you the mantra you must espouse.
By the way, you flaming skeptic cultists, what Promise Keepers events have you
attended?? Actions speak louder than words anyway--walk in my shoes for a day and
then you have earned the right to analyze my life!!
>From one sinner to another
Date: Sun, 15 Mar 1998 09:56:48 -0500
I really wanted your response instead of Mr. Curry's response. You have
made it clear that you do not wish any dialogue with me; hence, your
message: No more of your hate spew. I tried to understand your idea of
"hate" by asking you your view points. I guess I asked too much or I
offended you. Neither were my intentions. Have a good life. Vic Hash
From: "Critchlow, Jeff" <CritchlowJ@wellscti.com>
When you die, you will have all the evidence you need.
From: "Critchlow, Jeff" <CritchlowJ@wellscti.com>
To all, please allow me to re-phrase my last statement, since I am
dealing with such advanced life forms such as yourselves-----On the day
you cease to have a pulse, heartbeat, and suck oxygen from the air, you
will realize the error of your ways, as your soul lives in perpetual
agony.
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 14:48:04 -0800
>>> To whom or what do you give credit for the
rs> To whom or what do you give credit for the creation of the creator?
If the guy really wants to know where his gods came from, I would be more
than happy to provide some relevant archeological and anthropological data
for him to evaluate.
rs> WHY DOES THE CREATER NOT ANSWER V'GER?
The antenna leads have been melted!
From: Radamrondo <Radamrondo@aol.com>
How to show love for your wife, how to show love for your kids. How to lead by
becoming a servant. Leading by example. (the father does the dishes, cooks,
mows the lawn, washes his wife car, etc. For example) in order to show love
for his family and to lead by example, thats what this movement is teaching.
YOU JUST DON'T GET IT DO YOU?
Well I want to tell you, I don't hate you for what you write, not at all. But
if you do some more research maybe you'll understand that you should thank
your lucky stars for Promise Keepers.You should be thankful for an
organization that is trying to improve society. People that learn to love one
another learn to treat others as they would want to be treated.
Society is on a downward spiral with crime, drug problems, suicide, domestic
violence, alcoholism, etc. etc. etc.
P.K. does not promote domination over a woman, it promotes loving and serving
her as an example. Thats what leadership is about, showing a good example. I
invite you to check out P.K. and get your information from the source rather
than listening to gossip, or wherever you get these outragous ideas. Promoting
peace, love, joy...............
hmm sounds kind of like the 60's without the drugs.......but doesnt sound like
something to be afraid of! Sounds like its about time for someone to try to
make this a better world again. And by the way the reason women are not
allowed to join P.K. - because its a men's group, go figure!!!!!!! There
are plenty of groups just for women, I don't get all bent out of shape about
them, even the ones that hate P.K. or whatever, its my responsibility to get
along with everyone the best way I know how, and I try to love all people,
whatever their gender or race. Take care,
Adam
Date: Wed, 25 Mar 1998 10:57:40 -0800
I can assure you that I am in no way a woman living in fear of my husband.
And I am certainly not one to feel threatened if he spends a weekend away
from me for a conference, nor would he ever say a word to me if I wanted to
attend the "separate but equal" women's conference. Women and men are
different, and I feel there is nothing wrong with women dealing with issues
alone with other women, or the same for men. Why are people so threatened
or ready to yell prejudice? They didn't seem to care nearly as much when
there was so much racial prejudice in our country. And just as a side
note, I've been wondering something for several years. No one I've asked
seems to have an answer, so I'll ask you. Now don't take this the wrong
way, because I am not prejudice, but have you ever wondered why there is a
United Negro College Fund, or a Miss Black America, or things like that?
Just curious. Not that it's wrong, because again, not everything has to
include everyone, but you know that people would cry prejudice if someone
so much as thought about having a United Caucasion College Fund, or
anything that was meant only for white people. I would really like to hear
an answer for this. In this case there's not even separate but equal,
there's just "here's something for us, but don't you even think about one
for yourselves."
But back to the original topic. I would be interested in hearing or
seeing some actual proof of some type of bigotry or prejudice coming
straight from one of the PK leaders, as you say you've seen and heard. I
don't want to see what you've written on the subject-I want to hear it
straight from the horse's mouth, what it is that you are so upset about. I
watched the PK conference last October in D.C. on CNN, and I must say that
I don't see how any of it can be construed to be prejudiced. The only
negative thing I saw was that they asked for money at the end, and that was
only because they aren't going to charge an admission fee any more, so that
people who wouldn't have been able to attend before for financial reasons
will be able to attend now. I'll be waiting to hear your response!
Date: Sun, 29 Mar 1998 20:29:22 -0600
Maybe you need to study the Promise Keepers closer. Or maybe you need to
go to a meeting and then you will know the truth. They are a movement
that this world needs. That is the problem now, there are too many men
that are not Christian MEN of their homes. You see children on killing
spree's all over the US!!!!! If men were in the place they should be,
the home would be different!!!!!!
With Christian Love
Date: Sat Nov 22 07:19:07 1997
Greetings, Charlie
cm> I was a member of Promise Keepers, I mean I was getting in really deep.
I've always wondered if the Promise Keeper leaders read much history text
of the woman's sufferage movement and the black equality movements to discover
how to effectively counter charges of discrimination and hatred of blacks,
woman, and homosexuals.
While you were with the Promise Keepers, did _anyone_ ever comment upon the
unthinking adhearance to what the Christian bible says about how women and
homosexuals should be treated? I'm curious because the very same bible (which
is supposed to be rules for Jews, not Gentiles) also say that people aren't
supposed to eat shellfish or wear mixed fibers.
Did you ever see how someone could reconcile their hatred of homosexuals
while still allowing themselves to eat shellfish and wear polyester / nylon
blends?
And don't forget that the Bible also says that women aren't supposed to teach.
I wonder how many of them send their children to schools with female teachers.
How does the PK follower reconcile all these contradictions in their minds?
cm> It was destroying my marriage, as I was becoming very domineering to
I hear you. Make a guess what the third biggest reason for divorce is. The
first is money, the second is allegations (true or not) of unfaithfullness
and the third is religion and the ideologies which aren't shared.
It sounds like you wanted an equal partnership with your wife and, if I'm
reading you correctly, you wife insisted upon equality as well. Hell, I can't
imagine either being dominated by my wife nor ever wanting to dominate her.
cm> I could tell you things that went on you wouldnt believe but I
I've listened to radio interviews of the Promise Keeper's leaders. I know
they're a hate group.
cm> They looked down on me and ridiculed me when I left.
Just like any cult.
cm> You probably dont believe this but it is true. Well anyhow my marriage
Did your wife ever make any comments (pro or con) about the Promis Keepers?
cm> I cant count my experience as a complete waste of time however, but a
I'm glad you came away from the experience with some resolution. The number
of very bitter men and women who have sent me comments about the cult where
they felt cheated and taken for carnival rubes is growing and all of them
wonder how they could have been so blind.
cm> Mot one of the so called Christians in the organization will have anything
That's one of the classical hallmarks of a cult, though. If you even question
the ideologies of the group (leave alone the leaders) you are ostrasized and,
heaven help you if you leave, you are cut off and shoved out of the nest and
labeled one of the "outsiders" who have "joined the ranks of the evil."
The Scientology cult has this down to a science. The Promise Keepers are
doing the same to you.
How are you going to handle this? Do you have to go to a different church
now?
cm> It became confusing to me because most of the men seemed really nice
It's ironic, huh? A large number of people who talk endlessly about love
demonize and hate people _because_ they love. I don't know if you've looked
at the overwhelming amount of stuff here at The Skeptic Tank yet you would
see comments by people about how homosexuality isn't about love; that gays
_can't_ love like "normal people can."
I have several books which cover the rise and fall of Nazi Germany. In one
of the many volumes there is a comment by a Nazi German soldier who believed
that Jewish parents don't really love their children -- at not least anything
like German parents did.
It's this same _unthinking_, glib, off-handed bigotry and hatred of gays and
women that I see in the Promise Keepers which can't keep me long from seeing
the rise of something my parents and grandparents fought and died to stop.
cm> I have said enough. Just wanted to let you know my experience with them.
It's always great to hear from people who managed to learn from an unsavory
experience. I'm very glad you took the time to give me your comments.
And let me say, "Welcome back." You're more than welcome to live here in the
real world with honest people who love others honestly without having to
demonize the weak to elevate sagging egos.
Date: Thu, 19 Mar 1998 16:03:48 -0800
At 02:35 3/18/98 -0600, JOHN SANTIAGO wrote:
>Your "theories" only confirm that your web page needs a name change from
That's strange. While some of your message made it to this system, the
specific areas of concern about which you are complaining must have gotten
`lost' somewhere in the network.
That seems to happen a lot to people who get resentful at accidentally
looking at unauthorized facts. Somewhere sitting on some huge server with
unimaginable amounts of disk storage space there are countless millions
of messages written by fundies which contain all the reasoned, intelligent,
educated text. Only the idiotic, illiterate, disjointed, ignorant rants
and hate spew manage to escape this hypothetical, unstopable server.
--- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted - Descartes ---
Date: Mon, 06 Apr 1998 10:51:14 -0700
I do believe in God, so you have not accused me wrongly. I do believe
that there are all kinds of sins-things we shouldn't do. Being gay is only
one of them. That is what I believe. I have never been a gay-basher, and
when I've met a few I've talked to them openly, not condemningly. I don't
judge them, nor do I think anyone should judge me. You keep insulting me
and my beliefs, and I wonder what I've done to insult you.
One question I've been asking is not cult related at all. And certainly it
is not anything anyone has "told" me to ask. It's something I've always
been curious about. It's one of those things where you really deep down
know the answer, but you never hear anything about it publicly. As you'll
remember, it's about the United Negro College Fund, Miss Black America, and
the like. Why is it that these things exist, but you know as well as I
that we will never see a Miss Caucasion America or things like that. And
I'm not saying that we should have those things. I think that is very
segragated and it's not something I'd support. So why is it that our
society supports the former endeavors? It's not a question directed at
you, but society in general. I would like to hear you're thoughts on the
matter, however, and if you choose not to answer this time, I'll drop it.
Before when you had mentioned "separate but equal", this came to mind.
The other question I've been asking is very simple. I would like an
example of anything a PK leader has said that can be taken as bigoted or
prejudiced. If you can't provide such an example, not even one, then how
can you be so adament against them and believe that they are so evil?
Surely you have some foundation for what you're saying, and I would like to
know what it is. How can you expect to get anyone to believe you if you
can't offer proof? I want it straight from the leaders' mouth, not what
someone else has said about them. If you can't offer proof, then on what
do you base all these articles you write, and all your beliefs? I am very
curious to hear your thoughts on this.
Date: Fri, 02 Jan 1998 20:55:11 -0600
David Worrell wrote:
YOU KNOW GUYS YOU ARE RIGHT!!!! Since you "bozo the clown" skeptics have
responded to nothing I have said with facts and personally investigated
information, I owe you an apology for giving you my valuable time. The
arguments are started by people who by their own words clearly show they do
not even have a clue about anything they write about. You all have continued
to prove you are scared of dealing with any real evidence or facts and can
only resort to innuendo about how I treat my wife and labeling me (who you do
not even know) as a bozo!! If that all you've got--the battle is over----and
your father, the Devil and you all can just wallow in your pool of garbage
talk and wait until we all stand before God.
Have a nice day,
Dan Dooley
From: "Jim Jaeger" <jaeger@gate.sunquest.com>
Fredric,
I was just perusing your web page about the Promise Keepers "cult". Why are
you so angry at them? Have they harmed or threatened to harm you? I would
have read more of your articles, but your prose is so full of hatred. Seems
to me that you are commiting the errors and "sins" that you accuse them of
- intolerance, bigotry, narrow-mindedness - only more seriously. You would
be more persuasive if you stuck with the facts and left out the accusations
and innuendos. I respect your freedom of thought and speech. It would be
great if you allowed others the same.
Date: Tue Apr 07 22:19:29 1998
At 16:34 4/7/98 -0700, Jim Jaeger wrote:
jj> Fredric,
Greetings, Jim!
jj> I was just perusing your web page about the Promise
You are employing the logic fallacy known as "begging the question." It is
one of the seven deadly logic fallacies. When you presume to pretend that I
am angry at the cult, you are, it would seem, attempting to find some invalid
justification for ignoring the uncomfortable truth you accidentally reviewed
about the cult.
I can assure you that the hurtful truth won't just go away.
jj> Have they harmed or threatened to harm you?
Well, since I'm neither gay, female, black, or Mexican, no, not directly.
It would be a sad day when someone has to be personally threatened by a cult
(or an individual) before that said someone speaks out against a wrong or an
evil ideology. It would be very selfish to only take a stand against an evil
just when one is personally targeted, don't you think?
jj> I would have read more of your articles,
That's one way to avoid having to face the truth, yes. Curiously you "forgot"
to point out where any of the information about the cult was "sadly mistaken."
Curiously you joined the ranks of dozens of people who some how forgot to make
any specific notations about inaccuracies which you could bring to my attention.
Perhaps it just got lost in the mail. Yes, perhaps that's it.
jj> Seems to me that you are commiting the errors and "sins"
I'm an atheist; I'm incapable of "sin." "Sin" is a religious occult belief
and, since I don't believe in such nonsense, it doesn't pertain to me.
jj> that you accuse them of intolerance, bigotry, narrow-mindedness -
I would have to guess that you've never attended a cult gathering or ever
learned of the cult's hysterical hatred toward homosexuals. It would also
seem as though you somehow missed the ideology of oppression toward women
and the subjecation of same that the cult advocates.
That's unfortunate since it's half of what the cult stands for.
Would you like to know what the other half is? Since you somehow missed all
of the rest, I would be more than happy to assist you in further educating
yourself as to the true nature of the Promise Keeper cult. Just ask.
jj> You would be more persuasive if you stuck with the facts and left
When you can find anything which is inaccurate or in the least bit "sadly
mistaken," I do hope you take the time and expend the effort to correct me.
Lacking any specifics, how do you expect me to better myself as a human being?
jj> I respect your freedom of thought and speech.
My, you do presume to impress upon me superhuman powers and abilities, don't
you? Yes, you wouldn't believe the number of people I've magically suppressed
and denied their freedom of speech. No doubt I acquired these magical powers
and abilities through years and years of downing considerable amounts of Diet
Coke and NOODLES, topped by Creamy Ranch Dressing.
Do you have the name of ___ONE___ person I've denied the freedom of speech? Or
are you unthinkingly mouthing off your master's insane cult rhetoric without a
brain in your head?
A buck says your masters won't let you answer the question honestly.
jj> Be Happy,
Be educated.
Date: Tue, 07 Apr 1998 22:19:38 -0700
At 16:34 4/7/98 -0700, Jim Jaeger wrote:
jj> Fredric,
Greetings, Jim!
jj> I was just perusing your web page about the Promise
You are employing the logic fallacy known as "begging the question." It is
one of the seven deadly logic fallacies. When you presume to pretend that I
am angry at the cult, you are, it would seem, attempting to find some invalid
justification for ignoring the uncomfortable truth you accidentally reviewed
about the cult.
I can assure you that the hurtful truth won't just go away.
jj> Have they harmed or threatened to harm you?
Well, since I'm neither gay, female, black, or Mexican, no, not directly.
It would be a sad day when someone has to be personally threatened by a cult
(or an individual) before that said someone speaks out against a wrong or an
evil ideology. It would be very selfish to only take a stand against an evil
just when one is personally targeted, don't you think?
jj> I would have read more of your articles,
That's one way to avoid having to face the truth, yes. Curiously you "forgot"
to point out where any of the information about the cult was "sadly mistaken."
Curiously you joined the ranks of dozens of people who some how forgot to make
any specific notations about inaccuracies which you could bring to my attention.
Perhaps it just got lost in the mail. Yes, perhaps that's it.
jj> Seems to me that you are commiting the errors and "sins"
I'm an atheist; I'm incapable of "sin." "Sin" is a religious occult belief
and, since I don't believe in such nonsense, it doesn't pertain to me.
jj> that you accuse them of intolerance, bigotry, narrow-mindedness -
I would have to guess that you've never attended a cult gathering or ever
learned of the cult's hysterical hatred toward homosexuals. It would also
seem as though you somehow missed the ideology of oppression toward women
and the subjecation of same that the cult advocates.
That's unfortunate since it's half of what the cult stands for.
Would you like to know what the other half is? Since you somehow missed all
of the rest, I would be more than happy to assist you in further educating
yourself as to the true nature of the Promise Keeper cult. Just ask.
jj> You would be more persuasive if you stuck with the facts and left
When you can find anything which is inaccurate or in the least bit "sadly
mistaken," I do hope you take the time and expend the effort to correct me.
Lacking any specifics, how do you expect me to better myself as a human being?
jj> I respect your freedom of thought and speech.
My, you do presume to impress upon me superhuman powers and abilities, don't
you? Yes, you wouldn't believe the number of people I've magically suppressed
and denied their freedom of speech. No doubt I acquired these magical powers
and abilities through years and years of downing considerable amounts of Diet
Coke and NOODLES, topped by Creamy Ranch Dressing.
Do you have the name of ___ONE___ person I've denied the freedom of speech? Or
are you unthinkingly mouthing off your master's insane cult rhetoric without a
brain in your head?
A buck says your masters won't let you answer the question honestly.
jj> Be Happy,
Be educated.
From: "Patrick Langan" <patnkelly@toad.net>
Because I am not a Promise Keeper, I hardly feel stung or challenged by
your response. I was simply making an observation that your web page is
obviously the work of a bitter misanthrope. I'm indifferent as to its
accuracy.
And now that I know that you live your life by Descartes' "all is to be
doubted" credo, I'm able to make other assumptions about you: you would be
right at home with the O.J. Simpson jury, and that you would be a great
spokesperson for Clinton on the Sunday morning talking heads shows.
----------
Return to The Skeptic Tank's main Index page.
Date: Wed, 14 Jan 1998 23:12:58 EST
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers.
Date: Wed, 10 Dec 1997 07:41:52 EST
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Re: PKer's
Date: Fri, 12 Dec 1997 08:24:40 EST
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Re: PKer's
From: "Jay R. Joshlin" <jayrj@beaulib.dtx.net>
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: New News to You on Promise Keepers!!!
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe
in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Subject: Re: New News to You on Promise Keepers!!!
To: frice@skeptictank.org (Fredric L. Rice)
Date: Sun, 7 Dec 1997 01:17:43 +0800 (GMT+0800)
Cc: jayrj@beaulib.dtx.net
From: "Jay R. Joshlin" <jayrj@beaulib.dtx.net>
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: New News to You on Promise Keepers!!!
From: "Jay R. Joshlin" <jayrj@beaulib.dtx.net>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: New News to You on Promise Keepers!!!
Unless, of course, you're gay or a woman - flr
From: Jennifer Outzs <Outzs@sprintmail.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: promise keepers
From: GeriCoCo@aol.com
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: The Promise Keepers
From: DONC313@aol.com
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PKer's
From: Lloyd Woods II <lgwood01@morehead-st.edu>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: (no subject)
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:30:19 EST
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Re: promise keeper.....
Date: Sat, 10 Jan 1998 06:37:23 EST
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: making a difference
Date: Sun, 4 Jan 1998 22:58:21 EST
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers.
Andy
Skalisty1
P.O.G.
From: Jim Byrne <Jbyrne@cscc.edu>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: RE: your commentary
Jim Byrne
From: Darryl Frith <frith@mphs.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Off The Mark!
Darryl Frith
frith@mphs.com
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
From: Executive Auto Services <eas@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Promise keeper cult
>
>A dictionary won't tell you what's the best word to use to describe occult
>superstitious ignorance, silly. Dictionaries give you a description of
>a word's contemporary usage.
>> Is faith in your friends nothing more than
>> willful ignorance and superstition??
>Let's try to refrain from employing Christian dishonesty and stick with
>religious ignorance and superstition. Thanks. <smile>
>> As I've already stated, if I'm wrong I've lost nothing.... If I'm right
>> you've lost EVERYTHING!! Seems rather like I'm tossing a double-headed
>> coin now doesn't it? You on the other hand.... 50-50 odds for the rest
>> of eternity?? No thanks.
>Look at your coin again, silly. You'll see that there are hundreds of
>thousands of gods and goddesses on it. You just happened to pick the wrong
>ones so now Apollo and Odin are very upset with you.
>As you can see, your occult blatherings are easilly debunked with reason.
>
>>God Bless.
>
>Is that intended to be some kind of freakish Christanic curse?
>
>>At 09:57 PM 11/18/97 -0800, you wrote:
>>>
>>>>The word is 'faith'.
>>>
>>>The word is willful ignorance and superstition.
>>>
>>>> Just a point of interest, if I'm wrong I've lost
>>>>nothing... If you're wrong you've eternity to pay the price.
>>>
>>>Woops! Out of the hundreds of thousands of gods and goddesses to pick
>>>from, you happened to pick the wrong one. Apollo's gonna get you for that.
>
>Ah. I see that I already debunked that occult rant already. Learn from
>your embarrassment, silly.
>--- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted - Descartes ---
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
From: Executive Auto Services <eas@idirect.com>
Subject: Re: Promisekeepers
All the best
Brad Fothergill
>> you to rethink your position if only because the very same rights and terms
>> of social and moral acceptability which you feel should be given
>> homosexuals, should I believe be extended to heterosexuals without having
>> to justify themselves.
>
>I didn't even bother to pick through this bigot's message since it
>wasn't a complete sentence and an unambiguous meaning couldn't be extracted
>from it. That's why I left it up to you, Rod. }:-}
>
>rs> Please immediately justify why heterosexuals should have
>rs> marriage rights, given that 50% of marriages end in divorce.
>
>rs> Go on, I DARE you.
>
>There's an interesting tack I never thought of. If marriage fails half of
>the time, perhaps the concept should be reconsidered -- perhaps multiple-
>memmber marriages and term contract marriages should be considered.
>
>>I wonder if you would accept a homosexual so
>>readily if he was trying to seduce your son?
>
>rs> Homosexuals are interested in people of the same-sex, not
>rs> children. We don't accept paedophiles.
>
>This bigot tried to equate homosexuality with pedophilia. I would bet that
>he's a Christian; that would explain this level of hatred and dishonesty.
>
>rs> It's so nice you support a heterosexual trying to seduce your son.
>
>Funny how he didn't state any worries about that, huh?
>
>> Lastly, it would seem that homosexuals would not last too
>> long if left to thier own devices for procreation.
>
>Goat grief. There's that dismal education among the world's religious
>populace showing its ugly head yet once again.
>
>rs>Which is why gay men and lesbians have children at the same rate
>rs>(not frequency, merely rate of parentage) as heterosexuals.
>
>I would bet that these bigots are told by their masters that homosexual
>couples can't sexually reproduce. It wouldn't surprise me. It also seems
>as though this bigot has been told that homosexuality is genetic.
>
>rs>I'm gay, that doesn't mean I *DON'T* want to have children -- I
>rs>do. And some nice lesbian with a turkey baster will provide me!
>rs>:)
>rs>
>rs>I bet that steams you up!
>
><chuckle> In fact there are going to be any number of women who would
>have no qualms assisting you in such an effort, Rod. }:-}
>
>> Brad Fothergill
>
>rs> Are you in Christ too? I know so many guys
>rs> who are "In Christ". What a slut Christ must be! :)
>
>I'm so glad I have you on staff, Rod. }:-}
>--- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted - Descartes ---
From: Ben Spieldenner <SPIELDBD@ACS.WOOSTER.EDU>
Subject: Promise Keepers...
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Ben Spieldenner
To: frice@skeptictank.org
From: Executive Auto Services <eas@idirect.com>
Subject: Promisekeepers
You seem to have very extreme opinions of right and wrong. I hope that you
have in good conscience thought through what you wrote. I would challenge
you to rethink your position if only because the very same rights and terms
of social and moral acceptability which you feel should be given
homosexuals, should I believe be extended to heterosexuals without having
to justify themselves. I wonder if you would accept a homosexual so
readily if he was trying to seduce your son? Lastly, it would seem that
homosexuals would not last too long if left to thier own devices for
procreation. If it doesn't work for nature, why should it work for
society? Enough nattering for now... hope you have a good day.
Sincerely
From: Groton Public Schools <educate@nvc.net>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers reply
YOU DON'T HAVE A CLUE!
To: frice@skeptictank.org
From: tim norris <sunmon@accnorwalk.com>
Subject: Promise Keepers
Date: Thu, 15 Jan 1998 23:50:17 EST
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Re: promise keeper.....
>
> >> The nerve of employing Socratic method in a discussion! How dare
> you,
> >> you atheist you! <rofl!>
>
> <laughing!> Now that's true.
>
> rc> That is untrue, John. You should be ashamed of yourself for lying.
>
> >> Job 13 sends John to Hell straight away, I see.
>
> Another fact.
>
> jh> prove this and prove that
>
> rc> I never asked you to prove anything. I do discuss proofs with
> rc> some of my correspondents (those who share my interest
> rc> in math) but from you I never once requested anything of the sort.
>
> >> Why is it that no theist _ever_ seems to learn what a proof is and
> >> what evidence is? Man, it seems as though not a one of them have
> >> either a dictionary or a freshman High School education.
>
> Still no comment, I see.
>
> rc> So stop lying, John. You are fooling no one but yourself.
>
> >> He can't; he worships the father of lies, it seems.
>
> No comment here?
>
> jh> You seem to have all the answer's
>
> >> <laughing!> Robert, which stock should I invest in? You seem to
> have
> >> all the answers. <rofl!>
>
> I could use some lotto numbers while you're at it, Robert. }:-}
>
> jh> If I live the Christian life and I'm wrong the only thing
> jh> that will happen to me is that I'll die and that's it.
>
> rc>Wrong. You will have wasted your life on a pathetic, superstitious
> rc>lie, sacrificing the only life you have to the dogmatism of ancient
>
> rc>fairy tales and make believe.
>
> >> Worse: As a Christian he spent it worshing the wrong set of gods.
> >> Odin and Apollo will collect his hide and punish him for the
> affront.
> >> Atheists don't have that problem since they used their brains.
>
> Another unavoidable fact.
>
> jh> But if you die and your wrong you will be cast into the lake
> jh> of fire where there will be weeping and knashing of teeth and
> jh> eternal seperation from God.
>
> rc> Such "love." Will I be more separated than I am now?
>
> >> If his gods are anything like those depicted in the Christian
> >> mythologies, I wouldn't want them anywhere near me in the first
> >> place. Such sadistic evil should be kept at as far a distance
> >> as possible.
>
> No comment here, I see.
>
> jh> is every knee shall bow and every tonbue will confess
> jh> that Jesus Christ is Lord, willingly or unwillingly.
>
> >> Sweaty sadomasocistic homo fantasies.
>
> rc> In your dreams, no doubt.
>
> >> "I only wish I could be there to watch, truth be told."
>
> jh> odin and apollo-greek mythology- FALSE GODS-.
>
> No different than your deity constructs, dear... og: Unless you
> have _evidence_ that your gods exist?
>
> Right. As you can see, it's silly to pretend that _your_ deity
> constructs exist while others do not since all of them are equally
> evidenced in fact.
>
> jh> Well then Fredric, if that is what you believe where is the
> jh> overwhelming proof of your gods.
>
> <laughing!> I'm an atheist, you silly nut. You're the one who
> pretends to believe in deity constructs. You picked a set of deity
> constructs and for some reason are "fighting against" the rest.
>
> jh> Why don't you ask apollo what stock to invest in-he or she
> jh> is supposed to be a god of prophecy.
>
> Don't you even know anything about the gods?
>
> jh> I will ask you the same question, who wrote your doctrine or
> dogma's?
>
> That would be Faraday, Einstein, Newton, Hume... The list of
> individuals which dioscovered and codified my "doctrins" (as you
> put it) are nearly endless.
>
> jh> What proof did you have to come to believe in them?
>
> Let's see, electromagnetic propagation, relativity, gravitation,
> skepticism. They're all scientifically proven to exist. Did you
> know that?
>
> jh> You know of my doctrine and where I got it,
>
> What's funny is that you have no idea where you got your mythologies.
>
> jh> what exactly do you believe,
>
> I believe you're an illiterate, meandering, uneducated, illiterate,
> disjointed, illiterate bufoon.
>
> jh> I still have'nt received an answer to that question.
>
> I don't believe in anything, silly nut. Didn't you ever learn
> that atheists lack beliefs in the unevidenced?
>
> jh> Send me a copy of your belief's so I can have a look at them .
>
> You wouldn't dare set foot in a library, I'm sure.
>
> jh> God love's you to Fredric,
>
> Your sweaty homoeroic, sadomasocistic fantasies are of no concern
> to me, John. You go run off and masturbate with your fantasies and
> do your best to leave your intellectual and moral superiors out of
> it.
>
> Thanks.
> --- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted - Descartes ---
To: frice@skeptictank.org
From: trudell <trudell@uniserve.com>
Subject: promise keepers
Date: Sat, 01 Nov 1997 18:03:38 -0800
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers
From: John Huther <golgotha@bellatlantic.net>
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: promise keepers
>
> The nerve of employing Socratic method in a discussion! How dare you,
> you
> atheist you! <rofl!>
>
> rc> That is untrue, John. You should be ashamed of yourself for lying.
>
> Job 13 sends John to Hell straight away, I see.
>
> jh> prove this and prove that
>
> rc> I never asked you to prove anything. I do discuss proofs with
> rc> some of my correspondents (those who share my interest
> rc> in math) but from you I never once requested anything of the sort.
>
> Why is it that no theist _ever_ seems to learn what a proof is and
> what
> evidence is? Man, it seems as though not a one of them have either a
> dictionary or a freshman High School education.
>
> rc> So stop lying, John. You are fooling no one but yourself.
>
> He can't; he worships the father of lies, it seems.
>
> jh> You seem to have all the answer's
>
> <laughing!> Robert, which stock should I invest in? You seem to have
> all
> the answers. <rofl!>
>
> jh> If I live the Christian life and I'm wrong the only thing
> jh> that will happen to me is that I'll die and that's it.
>
> rc>Wrong. You will have wasted your life on a pathetic, superstitious
> rc>lie, sacrificing the only life you have to the dogmatism of ancient
>
> rc>fairy tales and make believe.
>
> Worse: As a Christian he spent it worshing the wrong set of gods.
> Odin and
> Apollo will collect his hide and punish him for the affront. Atheists
> don't
> have that problem since they used their brains.
>
> jh> But if you die and your wrong you will be cast into the lake
> jh> of fire where there will be weeping and knashing of teeth and
> jh> eternal seperation from God.
>
> rc> Such "love." Will I be more separated than I am now?
>
> If his gods are anything like those depicted in the Christian
> mythologies,
> I wouldn't want them anywhere near me in the first place. Such
> sadistic
> evil should be kept at as far a distance as possible.
>
> jh> is every knee shall bow and every tonbue will confess
> jh> that Jesus Christ is Lord, willingly or unwillingly.
>
> Sweaty sadomasocistic homo fantasies.
>
> rc> In your dreams, no doubt.
>
> "I only wish I could be there to watch, truth be told."
> --- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted - Descartes ---
> 24-hour file archive access: (818) 335-9601 (FidoNet 1:218/890.0)
> The Skeptic Tank Base Address: http://www.skeptictank.org/
>
> Skeptic Tank archive list: index.htm
> The One True Expert: Creationist lunatics: mantrack.htm
> So where's the proof? We keep asking...: proof.htm
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers
Date: Sun Oct 26 10:25:50 1997
>devote so much time to bashing a wonderful Christian organization? Are
>you gay? Unless you are I cannot understand you attitude.
To: drillsup@ix.netcom.com
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: Be Honest!
>attacks on the Promise Keepers Organization. Your problem with the
>group is a spiritual problem. I once told a friend to fear those who
>talk the most about tolerance; they're usually the most intolerant. And
>your intolerance is frightening. I thank God I live in America where I
>am free to think and speak as I wish. People like you would shut us up
>forever if you had half a chance.
To: Scott Marshall <marshal2@TCNJ.EDU>
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: prominse keeper cult
From: Michael Murdoch <mmurdoch@flash.net>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers
From: Scott Marshall <marshal2@TCNJ.EDU>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: prominse keeper cult
From: Allen Hill <ahill@fsi-intl.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: promise keepers
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers.
From: Skalisty1 <Skalisty1@aol.com>
From: Matthew May <revell@primenet.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers
Boise, Idaho
--
BMžê
To: <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers
Date: Sat, 25 Oct 1997 10:14:11 +0900
>
>In fact I have learned the origins of Christianity fairly well and have
>taken the effort to learn what is actually contained within the
mythologies.
>
>Have you?
>> clue about anything that has to do with the Bible or Christianity.
>
>It's very curious how no cultist ever manages to come up with any specifics
>to back up their claims and accusaions, huh?
To: Robert Curry <curry@gte.net>,Jim <jolson@remcen.ehhs.cmich.edu>
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: PK
jo> I wasn't real bad before, but I am better now. More supportive
jo> of my wife, and much more respectful of her feelings.
rc> are likewise devoted to positive family values, but who are
rc> committed to marriages that are equal partnerships without
rc> any religious dogma involved.
From: "Jerry Michael Karlovich" <jerry@korel.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Commentary on your PK page
To: Robert Curry <curry@gte.net>,John Huther <golgotha@bellatlantic.net>
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: promise keepers
jh> to me is to prove that God exist, am I correct?
rc> your god exists outside human imagination.
rc> you have no evidence. Only mythology, metaphor, and make believe.
rc> Those are all products of the human imagination.
jh> Do you believe in the evolution theory ?
rc> was here before there was any life on it to evolve.
jh> last time you seen an explosion blow something together .
rc> to ask about the origin of the universe, the origin of the planet we
rc> live on, or the origin of life on this planet? Those are three distinct
rc> questions, after all.
rc> The correct term for that is biopoesis.
jh> hatred of Christians . Perhap's a Christian crossed you somehow
jh> and you put a lable on all Christian's, I don't know.
rc> guesses. Do you believe that everyone who does not share your
rc> beliefs "hates Christians?" That sounds paranoid.
jh> page , I believe it say's, God is my co-pilot but as for a navigator
jh> he @@@., I'm sure you know what it say's.
To: Robert Curry <curry@gte.net>,Jim Olson <jolson@remcen.ehhs.cmich.edu>
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: PK
jo> together to make a marriage good is esential these days.
jo> I did, that although things are pretty good, there's one piece
jo> missing. One thing some people have that I don't, and it's not
jo> material.
rc> Maybe I can help.
To: <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Promise Keepers
Date: Tue, 21 Oct 1997 22:08:30 +0900
David Muir
From: Dave Chalmers <chalmers@v-wave.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PK
From: Jamie Carta <carta1@duo-county.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers
From: Jim <jolson@remcen.ehhs.cmich.edu>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PK
Date: Sun, 11 Jan 1998 09:43:30 EST
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers.
From: John Huther <golgotha@bellatlantic.net>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: promise keepers
From: Vic Hash <VicHash@compuserve.com>
Subject: Boy do you have it wrong.
To: "frice@skeptictank.org" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Date: Tue, 10 Mar 1998 00:49:01 EST
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers
To: frice@skeptictank.org
From: Mindy Burch <Mindy.Burch@vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Promise Keepers
--
Mindy
From: CDIntern@stthomas.edu
Subject: a news story
To: frice@skeptictank.org
To: "'frice@skeptictank.org'" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: PK
Date: Mon, 23 Feb 1998 17:27:09 -0600
Memphis, TN
Subject: CONCHR Promise Keepers dying
From: Otherside@xc.org (Mark Howerter)
To: conchr-l@xc.org
From: "Theodore K. Nitterhouse, Jr." <aod@innernet.net>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Your site
aod@innernet.net
Date: Sun, 8 Feb 1998 22:57:32 EST
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Keep up the good work.
To: "'frice@skeptictank.org'" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: PK
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 1998 17:00:23 -0500
Date: Thu, 1 Jan 1998 18:33:42 EST
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Re: promise keeper.....
To: <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: PROMISE KEEPERS
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 20:38:34 -0800
To: <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: PK
Date: Sun, 1 Feb 1998 00:12:39 -0500
From: "Jeffrey M. Spencer" <jspencer@perigee.net>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PK article
To: <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject:
Date: Thu, 6 Feb 1997 10:46:24 -0600
From: Kyle and Rondi Buris <buris@voyager.net>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: P.k..
From: Darryl Frith <frith@mphs.com>
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: As usual, vague, unspecific occult accusations
>
> At 08:34 1/11/82 -0800, Darryl Frith wrote:
>
> >Dear sir,
> >Have you updated this site recently? Your off based remarks and WAY off
> >the mark attacks against PK and its members are almost comical, if you
> >wern't as educated as you appear to be. I would sincerely like to engage
> >in a non-conforntational discussion of our foundations.
>
> It's not at all unusual that you some how managed to "forget" to mention
> any specifics about where I and everyone else who discusses the Promise
> Keeper cult is "sadly mistaken."
>
> When you can find any specifics, you'll let me know, won't you?
>
> Thanks in advance.
Darryl Frith
To: <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject:
Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 17:12:02 -0600
To: buris@voyager.net
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: P.k..
> say that they are beaten by promise keepers.
> through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
From: Vic Hash <VicHash@compuserve.com>
Subject: Thanks for responding.
To: "'Mr. Rice'" <frice@skeptictank.org>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
From: Mindy Burch <Mindy.Burch@vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Promise Keepers
--
Mindy
From: "Danny J. Dooley" <jjeagle@swbell.net>
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers
> >>>When wrongfully accused in His day, Jesus "said not a word".
>
> >> When you find any words which this "Jesus" of yours wrote, you'll let the
> >> rest of the world know, won't you? For some curious reason schollars can't
> >> seem to find any.
> >>
>
> > A very good friend of mine reminds me constantly
> > "Never argue with a fool-people may not know the difference"
>
> When you find evidence for your deity constructs, you'll let me know, won't you?
>
> Thanks in advance.
> --- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted - Descartes ---
> 24-hour file archive access: (818) 335-9601 (FidoNet 1:218/890.0)
> The Skeptic Tank Base Address: http://www.skeptictank.org/
> Skeptic Tank archive list: index.htm
> The One True Expert: Creationist lunatics: mantrack.htm
> So where's the proof? We keep asking...: proof.htm
<HTML>
<BLOCKQUOTE TYPE=CITE>>>>When wrongfully accused in His day, Jesus "said
not a word".
<BR>>> rest of the world know, won't you? For some curious reason
schollars can't
<BR>>> seem to find any.
<BR>>>
<BR>> "Never argue with a fool-people
may not know the difference"
<BR>--- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted - Descartes
To: "Critchlow, Jeff" <CritchlowJ@wellscti.com>, "'Fredric L. Rice'"
<frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: RE: PK
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 23:00:49 -0500
From: Fredric L. Rice[SMTP:frice@skeptictank.org]
Sent: Thursday, March 12, 1998 6:38 PM
To: Critchlow, Jeff
Cc: rod@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au; azirafel@concentric.net; cevans1950@aol.com
Subject: Re: PK
At 17:00 2/2/98 -0500, Critchlow, Jeff wrote:
>Sir, the rally on DC included all races.
What "rally?" Don't you think it would be wise to not start a sentence
from the middle?
>Sir, in the bible, what happened to the cities who practised
>homosexuality?
Cities are incapable of either heterosexual or homosexual activity.
What a freakishly disjointed message you've sent me. Amazing.
--- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted - Descartes
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: PK
Date: Thu, 12 Mar 1998 22:22:31 -0500
> From: Fredric L. Rice <frice@skeptictank.org>
> To: Mark Hultzapple <mrhultz@innernet.net>
> Cc: rod@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au; azirafel@concentric.net; cevans1950@aol.com
> Subject: Re: PK
> Date: Thursday, March 12, 1998 6:37 PM
>
> At 00:12 2/1/98 -0500, Mark Hultzapple wrote:
> >Dear Fredric,
> >
> >I hope you may change your mind as you learn more about PK and the good
> >effect it could have on our society. We as a nation need something to
pull
> >us together. Everything going on today seems to be driving us all away from
> >one another.
>
> "Pull us together..." unless you happen to be female, black, or gay.
>
> Might I suggest that you learn what the cult stands for and what it
> advocates before mistakenly spouting off your master's party line?
>
> >It's obvious you aren't a reader of, or a believer in the bible and for
> >that I'm truly sorry.
>
> Well, someone who can look at the evil Promise Keeper cult and pretend
> that it's not utterly evil could easilly make such silly assumptions. In
> fact I have read the Christian mythologies several times and have, more
> to the point, understood what's in it and, even more importantly, understood
> the origins of the myths.
>
> > I sense a lot of hate in you life and I wish you peace.
>
> Well, that's three mistaken assumptions on your part. You're at least
> batting 1000.
> --- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted - Descartes ---
To: "Critchlow, Jeff" <CritchlowJ@wellscti.com>, "Critchlow, Jeff" <CritchlowJ@wellscti.com>
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: RE: PK
> When the world ends, I hope to see all of you
> in heaven, rejoicing His name.
fr> sentence from the middle?
>>homosexuality?
To: "Mark Hultzapple" <mrhultz@innernet.net>
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: PK
> point of view but that is what makes this country great, isn't it?
>>>effect it could have on our society. We as a nation need something to
>>>pull us together. Everything going on today seems to be driving us all
>>>away from one another.
fr> advocates before mistakenly spouting off your master's party line?
>>>that I'm truly sorry.
>> that it's not utterly evil could easilly make such silly assumptions. In
>> fact I have read the Christian mythologies several times and have, more
>> to the point, understood what's in it and, even more importantly,
>> understood the origins of the myths.
fr> batting 1000.
To: Mindy Burch <Mindy.Burch@vanderbilt.edu>
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers
>I have just read your message back to me concerning Promise Keepers, and
>you suggested that I find out what they're about before drawing any
>conclusions.
>conventions, and I also watched the Washington D.C. convention on CNN.
To: ARB1112 <ARB1112@aol.com>
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: promise keeper cult.....
>Content-ID: <0_889812091@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
>Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>occult
>Content-ID: <0_889812091@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
>Content-type: text/plain;
> name="OCCULT"
>Content-disposition: inline
>
>occult [3] (noun)
>
>First appeared 1923
>
> : matters regarded as involving the action or influence of supernatural or
>supernormal powers or some secret knowledge of them -- used with the
To: ARB1112 <ARB1112@aol.com>
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: promise keeper cult.....
>Content-ID: <0_889812109@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1>
>Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
>cult
>Content-ID: <0_889812109@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2>
>Content-type: text/plain;
> name="CULT"
>Content-disposition: inline
>
>cult (noun)
>
>often attributive
>
>[French & Latin; French culte, from Latin cultus care, adoration, from colere
>to cultivate -- more at WHEEL]
>
>First appeared 1617
>
> 1 : formal religious veneration : WORSHIP
>
> 2 : a system of religious beliefs and ritual; also : its body of adherents
>
> 3 : a religion regarded as unorthodox or spurious; also : its body of
>adherents
>
> 4 : a system for the cure of disease based on dogma set forth by its
>promulgator <health ~s>
>
> 5 a : great devotion to a person, idea, object, movement, or work (as a film
>or book); especially : such devotion regarded as a literary or intellectual
>fad
>
> b : a usu. small group of people characterized by such devotion
>
> -- cul*tic (adjective)
>
> -- cult*ish (adjective)
>
> -- cult*ish*ly (adverb)
>
> -- cult*ish*ness (noun)
>
> -- cult*ism (noun)
>
> -- cult*ist (noun)
>
> -- cult*like (adjective)
To: ARCHNET@webtv.net (Christopher Archie)
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: FW: Superstition to ponder
> think we know it all people, who in the grand scope of things we are
> nothing, GOD loves you my friend more than you know.
>may have life eternal.
>reject his truth will end up, Please don't you be one of those people.
To: Fred Rice <frice@skeptictank.org>
From: Robert Curry <curry@gte.net>
Subject: hate messages
Cc: Vic Hash <VicHash@compuserve.com>
>>Dear Mr. Rice, thank you for responding to my e-mail on 3-12-98.
>>However, I am not sure of what you consider "Hate" subjects.
>>If you recall, I had included in my e-mail some of the beliefs taught
>>at Promise Keepers such as love they neighbor as thy self and
>>do unto others as you would have them do unto you. These are
>>certainly not hate messages.
>>We arrived there and we were met at the entrance by a gay
>>group shouting some pretty bad language at us even though
>>we did not know them.
>>respect, there is a spiritual side to us.
>>physical bodies die.
>>Jesus Christ.
>>evening and look up.
>>to light the fuse!
Robert Curry
St. Petersburg, Florida
From: "Danny J. Dooley" <jjeagle@swbell.net>
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers
> At 01:33 12/29/97 +0800, Rod Swift wrote:
> >>I challenge you to attend a PK event--or better still, read the
> >>Bible--it is the guidebook we live by. I don't live by some floating,
> >>"live and live" philosophy.
>
> What's funny is how these death cultists never read their own paper idol and
> yet demand that the better educated do so -- ignoring the fact that the better
> educated known the Christian mythologies far better than the cultist does.
>
> And it's funny how this death cultist assumes without thinking that I've never
> been to one of the cult's gatherings.
>
> >So you live by the bible?
>
> Of course he doesn't. He would be in prison if he did.
>
> >I ask of you all your money, after encashing all your
> >investments. I remind you of Matthew 5:42 and Luke 6:29-30
> >(and surrounding context) of your requirements to honour that
> >request.
>
> Watch the cultist contrive elaborate justifications for ignoring what his own
> paper idol tells him he must do.
>
> >I note that those are the words of Jesus.
>
> <laughing!>
>
> >I hope you don't disappoing me and wimp out. No answer to this
> >email will be construed as non-compliance. If you fail to
> >comply, well, you're not a true Christian are you?
>
> A buck says he's not a true Christian -- just another Jim Jones and Adolf
> Hitler false Christian.
>
> --- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted - Descartes ---
> 24-hour file archive access: (818) 335-9601 (FidoNet 1:218/890.0)
> The Skeptic Tank Base Address: http://www.skeptictank.org/
> Skeptic Tank archive list: index.htm
> The One True Expert: Creationist lunatics: mantrack.htm
> So where's the proof? We keep asking...: proof.htm
Dan Dooley
From: Vic Hash <VicHash@compuserve.com>
Subject: last e-mail
To: "'Mr. Rice'" <frice@skeptictank.org>
To: "Critchlow, Jeff" <CritchlowJ@wellscti.com>, "Critchlow, Jeff"
<CritchlowJ@wellscti.com>, "'Fredric L. Rice'" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: RE: PK
Date: Tue, 17 Mar 1998 14:43:40 -0500
----------
From: Fredric L. Rice[SMTP:frice@skeptictank.org]
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 1:03 PM
To: Critchlow, Jeff; Critchlow, Jeff
Cc: rod@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au; azirafel@concentric.net; cevans1950@aol.com
Subject: RE: PK
At 23:00 3/12/98 -0500, Critchlow, Jeff wrote:
> To all-
> When the world ends, I hope to see all of you
> in heaven, rejoicing His name.
How freakish. Do you have any evidence for this "world ends?"
Do you have any evidence for this "heaven?"
And who is this "His" (sic) that you're refering to?
>>Sir, the rally on DC included all races.
fr> What "rally?" Don't you think it would be wise to not start a
fr> sentence from the middle?
Why no answer? Won't your masters allow you to answer honest questions?
>>Sir, in the bible, what happened to the cities who practised
>>homosexuality?
fr>Cities are incapable of either heterosexual or homosexual activity.
Well? Couldn't you answer this question either, bigot? Or have you
been so poorly programmed by your cult masters that you can't even come
up with a suitable lie?
fr> What a freakishly disjointed message you've sent me. Amazing.
There's an understatement.
--- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted - Descartes
To: "'Fredric L. Rice'" <frice@skeptictank.org>, "Critchlow, Jeff"
<CritchlowJ@wellscti.com>
Cc: "'rod@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au'" <rod@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>,
Subject: RE: PK
Date: Wed, 18 Mar 1998 09:22:01 -0500
----------
From: Critchlow, Jeff
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 2:44 PM
To: Critchlow, Jeff; Critchlow, Jeff; 'Fredric L. Rice'
Cc: rod@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au; azirafel@concentric.net; cevans1950@aol.com
Subject: RE: PK
When you die, you will have all the evidence you need.
----------
From: Fredric L. Rice[SMTP:frice@skeptictank.org]
Sent: Tuesday, March 17, 1998 1:03 PM
To: Critchlow, Jeff; Critchlow, Jeff
Cc: rod@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au; azirafel@concentric.net; cevans1950@aol.com
Subject: RE: PK
At 23:00 3/12/98 -0500, Critchlow, Jeff wrote:
> To all-
> When the world ends, I hope to see all of you
> in heaven, rejoicing His name.
How freakish. Do you have any evidence for this "world ends?"
Do you have any evidence for this "heaven?"
And who is this "His" (sic) that you're refering to?
>>Sir, the rally on DC included all races.
fr> What "rally?" Don't you think it would be wise to not start a
fr> sentence from the middle?
Why no answer? Won't your masters allow you to answer honest questions?
>>Sir, in the bible, what happened to the cities who practised
>>homosexuality?
fr>Cities are incapable of either heterosexual or homosexual activity.
Well? Couldn't you answer this question either, bigot? Or have you
been so poorly programmed by your cult masters that you can't even come
up with a suitable lie?
fr> What a freakishly disjointed message you've sent me. Amazing.
There's an understatement.
--- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted - Descartes ---
To: Rod Swift <rod@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: PK cult
>>> creation of all you see and know to exist?
Date: Sun, 22 Mar 1998 18:42:42 EST
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers
To: frice@skeptictank.org
From: Mindy Burch <Mindy.Burch@vanderbilt.edu>
Subject: Promise Keepers
--
Mindy
From: Me <donova69@IDT.NET>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Uneducated
Mike Donovan
To: chuck86@juno.com (Charlie Martin)
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: I was a member...
cm> At first it seemed like a really Christian organization. After being
cm> in there for a while I realized that I was in a KKK clan organization,
cm> but instead of being against blacks, it was against women and homosexuals.
cm> my wife. I was taught this. Well I could go on and on about it.
cm> can assure you that it is nothing but a hate group!
cm> is still intact but it took a while to shake some of the philosophies.
cm> Even though my mind had been changed, my attitude had to take a while.
cm> learning experience.
cm> to do with me. I did nothing wrong to them. I was not hostile, rude, or
cm> militant to anyone. The fact that I quit was enough.
cm> except for their attitude toward women and homosexuals. Especially
cm> homosexuals! All the while they were talking about love.
cm> Thanks for the opportunity to vent my spleen.
To: JOHNGEORGINA@webtv.net (JOHN SANTIAGO)
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: web site
>the "Skeptic tank" to the "SEPTIC TANK" or did you just mispell the
>original title?
To: frice@mail.skeptictank.org
From: Mindy Burch <Mindy.Burch@vanderbilt.edu>
Subject:
--
Mindy
From: "Danny J. Dooley" <jjeagle@swbell.net>
To: David Worrell <azirafel@concentric.net>
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers
> At 10:54 AM 1/1/98 -0800, Fredric L. Rice wrote:
> >> A very good friend of mine reminds me constantly
> >> "Never argue with a fool-people may not know the difference"
>
> >When you find evidence for your deity constructs, you'll let me know,
> won't you?
>
> One has to wonder why this bozo goes out and attempts to start arguments.
To: <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Promise Keepers
Date: Tue, 7 Apr 1998 16:34:10 -0700
Be Happy,
- James
To: "Jim Jaeger" <jaeger@gate.sunquest.com>
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: Promise Keeper Cult
jj> Keepers "cult". Why are you so angry at them?
jj> but your prose is so full of hatred.
jj> only more seriously.
jj> out the accusations and innuendos.
jj> It would be great if you allowed others the same.
To: "Jim Jaeger" <jaeger@gate.sunquest.com>
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: Promise Keeper Cult
jj> Keepers "cult". Why are you so angry at them?
jj> but your prose is so full of hatred.
jj> only more seriously.
jj> out the accusations and innuendos.
jj> It would be great if you allowed others the same.
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
Subject: Re: Promise Keeper cult article
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 05:10:23 -0400
> From: Fredric L. Rice <frice@skeptictank.org>
> To: patnkelly@toad.net
> Subject: Re: Promise Keeper cult article
> Date: Thursday, April 09, 1998 10:49 PM
>
> At 01:34 4/10/98 -0400, Patrick Langan wrote:
>
> >Amazing that you would waste so much energy on putting this article
> >together. How bitter and paranoid you must be.
>
> Thanks you for your Christian message. When you have the time, you might
> consider enumerating any aspect of the cult's exposure which is inaccurate
> or "sadly mistaken."
>
> Thanks in advance.
> --- "de omnibus dubitandum" All is to be doubted - Descartes ---
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The Promise Keeper cult: Defending the cult - Part 5