The saga of the Promise Keeper cultists attempting to justify and explain their bigotry continues. Located within this mess you'll notice how one of these cultists attempts to equate homosexuality with murder.

The evidence provided within this series is undeniable: The Promise Keeper cult is utterly evil to the core, feeding upon the childish and petty bigotries of the Christian populace solely out of greed and because it makes them feel good to dominate and oppress the weak.

At 05:10 4/11/98 -0400, Patrick Langan wrote:

> Because I am not a Promise Keeper, I hardly
> feel stung or challenged by your response.

I didn't ask you to feel "stung" or "challanged." I asked you that when you had time to point out where any of the information about the cult is wrong to get back to me. How can I improve myself as a human being if you won't tell me specifically where my mistakes are?

>>> Amazing that you would waste so much energy on putting this
>>> article together. How bitter and paranoid you must be. fr> Thanks you for your Christian message. When you have the time, you
fr> might consider enumerating any aspect of the cult's exposure which
fr> is inaccurate or "sadly mistaken."

From: Praise Chapel Fullerton <pcfull@gte.net>
To: frice@raids.org
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:10:28 +0000
Subject: Comment

What a shame. An organization of men who want nothing more than to be better husbands and fathers being slammed by people who are obviously not content with being who they are. More good has come out of these PK meetings than anything else I've ever seen or heard of. Why are you so angry? You communications draw a clear picture of your rage. Haven't you found fulfillment in being a woman? Your reference to preachers who have fallen in sin doesn't make God any less real than He is. We, with all of our failures must seek to live our lives with integrity. Why get hammered for trying to be better human beings?

I really feel sorry for you.

Of course he does. Imagine the audacity of someone who doesn't need a cult to tell him how to behave toward his wife. Imagine the audacity of someone who treats his wife as an equal partnership in a traditional family pernership. Of course he feels sorry for me.

From: "Fast, Heather" <HFast@Ameri-net.com>
To: "'frice@raids.org'" <frice@raids.org>
Subject: re: Promise Keepers
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:54:18 -0600

To whom it may concern,

I really don't know why you keep harping on the promise keepers for being a cult. One of the things that bother you seems to be the fact that women are not allowed in the meetings. So what is the big deal about that? There are countless men organizations that men are not allowed in. What about the feminist movement. Are you telling me they don't have meetings where it is women only?

And as far as you thinking that the beliefs espoused by the Promise Keepers is cultish. I would question your concept of a cult. The beliefs of the Promise Keepers are rooted in the Bible, what Christians have always looked at for their value system. Cults are built on a person or person's beliefs that they have made up and decided. As christians we obey the Bible even when it conflicts with the culture of the day.

Thank you for your attention,
Heather

From: James Dale Wehrli <car@kode.net>
To: frice@raids.org
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 23:44:24 -0400
Subject: Promise keepers

Hi, You call promise keepers homophobic. Well do you like murder? Do you think it is ok? Are you murderphobic? Just because people don't agree with you, you think they are terrible and wrong.

On the subject of men's leader ship of the home.With all the broken home's in this country you don't want to men to lead the home? You should listen to men and women who didn't have a Father in the home when they were growing up.They tell of pain and heart ache and sadness. Do you realize that if the fathers were in the home they could close down big brothers and big sister's. Also we could elminate family court with the elimination of divorce. And it would eliminate child support.

From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@raids.org>
To: James Dale Wehrli <car@kode.net>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:46:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Promise keepers

At 23:44 5/16/98 -0400, James Dale Wehrli wrote:

jdw> Hi, You call promise keepers homophobic. Well do you like murder?
jdw> Do you think it is ok? Are you murderphobic? Just because people
jdw> don't agree with you, you think they are terrible and wrong.

One of the classic earmarks of Fascism is the demonization of innocent people. The need to equate innocent people who do nobody any harm with rapists and murderers or other criminals is an attribute of Fascist cultism. The inability to enumerate any harm said demonized group inflicted upon the populace which isn't likewise reflected outside of the group is never addressed by the Fascist cult; it can't be addressed reasonably.

Lose the hatred, James. Lose the religion. Open your mind to reality and escape the intolerance, hatred, and blind bigotry that your masters have inflicted upon you. Admit that you have a problem and then seek assistance erasing it.

Some suitable references for you would be the Cult Dynamics web page which you may review at http://www.raids.org/cultdyn.htm and, of course, the Walk Away package at http://www.raids.org/walkaway.htm

No one can help you but you. Certainly your masters want to keep you ignorant and full of hate. Help yourself, James, then cast aside your master's hatred and intolerance. Leave that for the extremists and come join the real world.

Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:02:36 -0700 From: dsavage@slip.net
To: frice@raids.org
Subject: Promise Keepers

Hi,

All I have to say is that it wors for me and it was meant to work right this way.

God is a God of order and families should be too. We work as a team this way and it works for us. So why knock it?

Oh, I know why....but that is you and I, myself am a very happy wife with a Promise Keeper for a hubby.

Nuff said,
ttfn
Marinda Savage

From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@raids.org>
To: dsavage@slip.net
Date: Sat May 23 19:25:23 1998
Subject: re:Promise Keepers

At 23:02 5/22/98 -0700, dsavage@slip.net wrote: >Hi,
>All I have to say is that it wors for me and it was meant to work >right this way.

That's too illiterate to pick through. Would you mind reworking your statement and try again, please?

>God is a God of order and families should be too. We work as a team
>this way and it works for us. So why knock it?

If you're talking about the Christian gods and the Promise Keeper cult, you should probably research the fact that the cult doesn't advocate "teams." It advocates male domination over the little woman and states that the woman has no say-so in her oppression. That's an evil that many extremist Christians seem to want to pretend their gods want them to visit upon their wives.

Justifying oppression is evil. Trying to use gods to justify evil is worse.

>Oh, I know why....but that is you and I, myself am a very happy wife
>with a Promise Keeper for a hubby.

Right. Sure. When you presume to include your intellectual and moral superiors in with your delusions, you end up exhibiting one of the many reasons the Christianic death cult has the bloody history that it does.

Whereas slavery to men seems to be your ideal, most women have higher self-esteem than that and would rather be treated as the quals to men that they are.

>Nuff said,
>ttfn
>Marinda Savage

Might I suggest that you actually learn what the Promise Keeper cult is really about rather than -- since you claim to be a woman -- accept your role of submissive property?

You don't have to stay with an abusive, dominating male. If you wish I can help you locate a woman's shelter in your area which can take care of you and any children you might need to care for until you can get back on your feet. It's one of the things that we can do here at The Skeptic Tank.

From: dsavage@slip.net
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@raids.org>
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 23:28:18 -0700
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers

Fredric L. Rice wrote:

> At 23:02 5/22/98 -0700, dsavage@slip.net wrote:
>
> That's too illiterate to pick through. Would you mind reworking your
> statement and try again, please?

Must I actually repeat myself to you? Excuse me for missing a "k" in the word work, sir. I apologize to your dominate intelligence.

Give me a break. You should listen to yourself. Your pride and big words exposes your deep rooted ignorance. You sound wise but in actuality you prove yourself to be a fool. How can you judge something that you know nothing of? Have you ever spent all weekend at a Promise Keeper Rally? Once you have then make a judgement.

Take for instance the military teamwork, sir or even the simple invention of the the streetlight. Both have formation and guidelines.

Without them the military would be in upheaval and the streets a mess. Now, when the marriage institution has order within it without "domination" you trip to much on that domination stuff by the way and really sir, your letter reveals to me your dominate pride you feel over me as you wrote your letter so you have proven yourself to be a reflection of the judgement you accuse. Think about it, Fred.

> >God is a God of order and families should be too. We work as a team
> >this way and it works for us. So why knock it?
>
> If you're talking about the Christian God

(I had to fix that for you. Your English fails you. I was taught in public school to always capitalize the word "God" when it came to Christian Deity. As far as I know that hasn't changed but I'm sure you will see to it as soon as you can get your opinions expressed to the right people, right? ;)

> and the Promise Keeper cult,
> you should probably research the fact that the cult doesn't advocate
> "teams." It advocates male domination over the little woman
> and states that the woman has no say-so in her oppression.

Please use proper quotes and references when you accuse it makes your statements much more believable. (not everyone is a guppy:)

> That's an evil that
> many extremist Christians seem to want to pretend their GOD want them
> to visit upon their wives.

Correction here too. Another false accusation filled with ignorance. They have taught husbands to "cherish", "respect" and "love" their wives just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her. Dig a little deeper and you will begin to understand. Listening is also a good tool when making a better judgement. you should try that too.:)

> Justifying oppression is evil.

I finally agree with you. :) Isn't that nice? But within a marriage that God ordains (isn't that such a religious word?) and there is an agape love working in it there is no opression. Now, when two people are living for themselves and are self-obsorbed then oppression could naturally take over and people would then feel "oppressed". But by what? Let's see there own misery because when you don't "love" (v.) you are unhappy. For it is better to give than receive, do you agree?

> >Oh, I know why....but that is you and I, myself am a very happy
> >wife with a Promise Keeper for a hubby.
>
> Right. Sure.

Thank you for your agreement.

> When you presume to include your intellectual and moral
> superiors in with your delusions, you end up exhibiting one of the many
> reasons the Christianic death cult has the bloody history that it does.

Bloody? What are you refering to? And could you please explain your above statement " include your intellectual and moral > superiors in with your delusions" Now that sounds very "male of you, sir. Unless of course I'm reading that wrong but are you trying to be offensive or merely stupid?

> Whereas slavery to men seems to be your ideal, most women have higher
> self-esteem

Now, Fred there you go again judging without looking, listening and really learning. You know nothing of me. You have not done a complete mental, emotional or physical examination that I know of so how could you make a judgement upon my character?

My security is in God of course but the you don't seem to understand Him or seem to want to try to so I will not explain this to you because it is much more than "religious" (except to you) to me.

I'm not choosing to be a "submissive" wife to please my husband but to please God and my children will learn to submit to a higher authority as they see me do it. When I try to "wear the pants" in the family here it just doesn't work but let me explain that I'm not under him but subject to him and he is to me. It is not "domination" but more "accountability" Do you understand this? Do you have people you are accountable to? Are there people accountable to you? If so, you are not above them on the food chain or they you but there is a matter of working with and for each other in this way. When it comes to marriage, and I am still learning as we all are that accountability works for people. If it didn't there would no use for managers, assistant managers and employees. Marriage is work, sir. And if this company at home doesn't have structure as a work team as Jesus said "A house divided against itself will not stand" He also said this " A country divided against itself will not stand" SOund familiar? No? Look on the morning news and see a country that refuses to work it tha right way. God's way. Yous see, God is not a God of chaos. This nation has tilted since it has rejected God's loving ways and seek to please themselves and become divided against one another. Yes, many people have taken religion to the extreme and have forgotten the basics of "loving one another" in the truest sense of the word.

Promise Keepers is is a group of guys that want to do the right thing and love their kids and love their wives and submit to God's authority out of reverence to Him. It is a powerful group of men because Love is powerful and I'm proud of these men because they are going against the common grain of media and public as yourself and really trying to learn what is to be a " Promise Keeper". Now, everyone breaks promises, namely me, one of those submissive little wives with her tail between her legs.....NOT!

Every does and everyone will always fail everyone else. But when someone actually makes an effort to be a better person and love a little more than they did yesterday, then more power to them.

Fred, no need to email back. Obviously we will disagree on this subject until our emails are blue in the interface but try to take the time to see and hear from your heart what it is all about.... it really is "all good". ;)

TTFN,
Marinda

From: dsavage@slip.net
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@raids.org>
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 21:19:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers

Fred,

You must have missed the last sentence, sir. No argument here and your wisdom is foolishness to me. You actually have no common sense.

Proceed with your sceptic tank attitude and I will go on with the truth.

It must be very frustrating for you that your one small opinion could never possibly change the hearts of 1.2 million Promise Keeper men (plus their happy wives and children).

I'm done with our debate now. Let us agree to disagree. I have much more important things to do and you bore me.

M-

From: dsavage@slip.net
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@raids.org>
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:50:32 -0700
Subject: Promise Keepers

Fredric L. Rice wrote:

> At 00:14 5/25/98 -0700, dsavage@slip.net wrote:
> >> people walk away from abusive relationships
> >
> >No abuse here.
>
> Why did you contact our organization for help, then? You contacted us.

Think again....more deeply now. :)

With your brain please... look back over the emails and see if I asked for help on anything....nope.

Your organization is called the Sceptic Tank. I found your organization on a Promise Keeper search for a certain song sung at the PK meeting. Your article of sceptisism came up on the search results and I was curious, not in need of help. Now I believe I'm done with your opinions and septic tank ideas. You seem to focus on sceptic thinking and totally disregard common sense. I don't understand how you can live life this way but carry on, lonely man. You are obviously very bored in life. But that's cool, I have been there. The computer can take over one's life in such a way. Time for a change maybe? Go fishing.:)

Good luck. M-

From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@raids.org>
To: dsavage@slip.net
Date: Tue May 26 19:26:41 1998
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers

fr>> people walk away from abusive relationships

>>>No abuse here.

fr> Why did you contact our organization for help, then? You contacted us.

> Think again....more deeply now. :)

Are you denying that _you_ contacted _us_? Are you aware of what Job 13 has to say about lying for the Jesus god?

From: Greg Lacy <gtla@swbell.net>
To: frice@raids.org
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:44:28 -0500
Subject: Promise Keepers (Cult)?

It is perfectly clear that you have no idea what a Cult is. As a matter of fact you are showing your ignorance and probably have one of those Darwin Fishes on the back of your car. It is also clear that you have no perception of family values or morals. There are plenty of people from all colors and walks of life at the rallies. It is high time that the man take his role in the home seriously, and stop making excuses for their actions. Be the provider in the home, be the disciplinarian in the home, and be there for his wife and kids not when he feels like it but when they need him to be. It is obvious that you are only out to do some Christian Bashing and are closed minded about anything that gives you a guilty feeling. So you keep ignoring your family and let the world teach your kids about sex and about drugs, and you just sit back and be the "MAN".