The saga of the Promise Keeper cultists attempting to justify and explain
their bigotry continues. Located within this mess you'll notice how one of
these cultists attempts to equate homosexuality with murder.
The evidence provided within this series is undeniable: The Promise Keeper
cult is utterly evil to the core, feeding upon the childish and petty
bigotries of the Christian populace solely out of greed and because it
makes them feel good to dominate and oppress the weak.
At 05:10 4/11/98 -0400, Patrick Langan wrote:
> Because I am not a Promise Keeper, I hardly
I didn't ask you to feel "stung" or "challanged." I
asked you that when you had time to point out where any of the information
about the cult is wrong to get back to me. How can I improve myself as a
human being if you won't tell me specifically where my mistakes are?
>>> Amazing that you would waste so much energy on putting this
From: Praise Chapel Fullerton <pcfull@gte.net>
What a shame. An organization of men who want nothing more than to be
better husbands and fathers being slammed by people who are obviously
not content with being who they are. More good has come out of these PK
meetings than anything else I've ever seen or heard of. Why are you so
angry? You communications draw a clear picture of your rage. Haven't
you found fulfillment in being a woman? Your reference to preachers who
have fallen in sin doesn't make God any less real than He is. We, with
all of our failures must seek to live our lives with integrity. Why get
hammered for trying to be better human beings?
I really feel sorry for you.
From: "Fast, Heather" <HFast@Ameri-net.com>
To whom it may concern,
I really don't know why you keep harping on the promise keepers for
being a cult. One of the things that bother you seems to be the fact
that women are not allowed in the meetings. So what is the big deal
about that? There are countless men organizations that men are not
allowed in. What about the feminist movement. Are you telling me they
don't have meetings where it is women only?
And as far as you thinking that the beliefs espoused by the Promise
Keepers is cultish. I would question your concept of a cult. The
beliefs of the Promise Keepers are rooted in the Bible, what Christians
have always looked at for their value system. Cults are built on a
person or person's beliefs that they have made up and decided. As
christians we obey the Bible even when it conflicts with the culture of
the day.
Thank you for your attention,
From: James Dale Wehrli <car@kode.net>
Hi, You call promise keepers homophobic. Well do you like murder?
Do you think it is ok? Are you murderphobic? Just because people don't
agree with you, you think they are terrible and wrong.
On the subject of men's leader ship of the home.With all the
broken home's in this country you don't want to men to lead the home?
You should listen to men and women who didn't have a Father in the home
when they were growing up.They tell of pain and heart ache and sadness.
Do you realize that if the fathers were in the home they could close
down big brothers and big sister's. Also we could elminate family court
with the elimination of divorce. And it would eliminate child support.
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@raids.org>
At 23:44 5/16/98 -0400, James Dale Wehrli wrote:
jdw> Hi, You call promise keepers homophobic. Well do you like murder?
One of the classic earmarks of Fascism is the demonization of innocent people.
The need to equate innocent people who do nobody any harm with rapists and
murderers or other criminals is an attribute of Fascist cultism. The inability
to enumerate any harm said demonized group inflicted upon the populace which
isn't likewise reflected outside of the group is never addressed by the Fascist
cult; it can't be addressed reasonably.
Lose the hatred, James. Lose the religion. Open your mind to reality and
escape the intolerance, hatred, and blind bigotry that your masters have
inflicted upon you. Admit that you have a problem and then seek assistance
erasing it.
Some suitable references for you would be the Cult Dynamics web page which you
may review at http://www.raids.org/cultdyn.htm and, of course,
the Walk Away package at http://www.raids.org/walkaway.htm
No one can help you but you. Certainly your masters want to keep you ignorant
and full of hate. Help yourself, James, then cast aside your master's hatred
and intolerance. Leave that for the extremists and come join the real world.
Date: Fri, 22 May 1998 23:02:36 -0700
From: dsavage@slip.net
Hi,
All I have to say is that it wors for me and it was meant to work right
this way.
God is a God of order and families should be too. We work as a team this
way and it works for us. So why knock it?
Oh, I know why....but that is you and I, myself am a very happy wife
with a Promise Keeper for a hubby.
Nuff said,
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@raids.org>
At 23:02 5/22/98 -0700, dsavage@slip.net wrote:
>Hi,
That's too illiterate to pick through. Would you mind reworking your
statement and try again, please?
>God is a God of order and families should be too. We work as a team
If you're talking about the Christian gods and the Promise Keeper cult,
you should probably research the fact that the cult doesn't advocate
"teams." It advocates male domination over the little woman and
states that the woman has no say-so in her oppression. That's an evil that
many extremist Christians seem to want to pretend their gods want them
to visit upon their wives.
Justifying oppression is evil. Trying to use gods to justify evil is worse.
>Oh, I know why....but that is you and I, myself am a very happy wife
Right. Sure. When you presume to include your intellectual and moral
superiors in with your delusions, you end up exhibiting one of the many
reasons the Christianic death cult has the bloody history that it does.
Whereas slavery to men seems to be your ideal, most women have higher
self-esteem than that and would rather be treated as the quals to men
that they are.
>Nuff said,
Might I suggest that you actually learn what the Promise Keeper cult is
really about rather than -- since you claim to be a woman -- accept your
role of submissive property?
You don't have to stay with an abusive, dominating male. If you wish I
can help you locate a woman's shelter in your area which can take care of
you and any children you might need to care for until you can get back on
your feet. It's one of the things that we can do here at The Skeptic Tank.
From: dsavage@slip.net
Fredric L. Rice wrote:
Must I actually repeat myself to you? Excuse me for missing a "k"
in the word work, sir. I apologize to your dominate intelligence.
Give me a break. You should listen to yourself. Your pride and big words
exposes your deep rooted ignorance. You sound wise but in actuality you
prove yourself to be a fool. How can you judge something that you know
nothing of? Have you ever spent all weekend at a Promise Keeper Rally?
Once you have then make a judgement.
Take for instance the military teamwork, sir or even the simple
invention of the the streetlight. Both have formation and guidelines.
Without them the military would be in upheaval and the streets
a mess. Now, when the marriage institution has order within it without
"domination" you trip to much on that domination stuff
by the way and really sir, your letter reveals to me your dominate
pride you feel over me as you wrote your letter so you have proven
yourself to be a reflection of the judgement you accuse. Think about it,
Fred.
> >God is a God of order and families should be too. We work as a team
(I had to fix that for you. Your English fails you. I was taught in
public school to always capitalize the word "God" when it came to
Christian Deity. As far as I know that hasn't changed but I'm sure you
will see to it as soon as you can get your opinions expressed to the
right people, right? ;)
> and the Promise Keeper cult,
Please use proper quotes and references when you accuse it makes your
statements much more believable. (not everyone is a guppy:)
> That's an evil that
Correction here too. Another false accusation filled with ignorance.
They have taught husbands to "cherish", "respect" and "love" their wives
just as Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her.
Dig a little deeper and you will begin to understand.
Listening is also a good tool when making a better judgement. you should
try that too.:)
> Justifying oppression is evil.
I finally agree with you. :) Isn't that nice? But within a marriage
that God ordains (isn't that such a religious word?) and there is an
agape love working in it there is no opression. Now, when two people are
living for themselves and are self-obsorbed then oppression could
naturally take over and people would then feel "oppressed". But by what?
Let's see there own misery because when you don't "love" (v.)
you are unhappy. For it is better to give than receive, do you agree?
Thank you for your agreement.
> When you presume to include your intellectual and moral
Bloody? What are you refering to? And could you please explain your
above statement " include your intellectual and moral
> superiors in with your delusions" Now that sounds very "male of you, sir. Unless of course I'm reading that wrong but are you trying to be
offensive or merely stupid?
> Whereas slavery to men seems to be your ideal, most women have higher
Now, Fred there you go again judging without looking, listening and
really learning. You know nothing of me. You have not done a complete
mental, emotional or physical examination that I know of so how could
you make a judgement upon my character?
My security is in God of course but the you don't seem to understand Him
or seem to want to try to so I will not explain this to you
because it is much more than "religious" (except to you) to me.
I'm not choosing to be a "submissive" wife to please my husband but to
please God and my children will learn to submit to a higher authority
as they see me do it. When I try to "wear the pants" in the family
here it just doesn't work but let me explain that I'm not under him but
subject to him and he is to me. It is not "domination" but
more "accountability" Do you understand this? Do you have people you are
accountable to? Are there people accountable to you? If so,
you are not above them on the food chain or they you but there is
a matter of working with and for each other in this way.
When it comes to marriage, and I am still learning as we all are
that accountability works for people. If it didn't there would no use
for managers, assistant managers and employees. Marriage is work, sir.
And if this company at home doesn't have structure as a work team
as Jesus said "A house divided against itself will not stand"
He also said this " A country divided against itself will not stand"
SOund familiar? No? Look on the morning news and see a country that
refuses to work it tha right way. God's way. Yous see, God is not a God
of chaos. This nation has tilted since it has rejected God's
loving ways and seek to please themselves and become divided against one
another. Yes, many people have taken religion to the extreme
and have forgotten the basics of "loving one another" in the truest
sense of the word.
Promise Keepers is is a group of guys that want to do the right thing
and love their kids and love their wives and submit to God's authority
out of reverence to Him. It is a powerful group of men because Love
is powerful and I'm proud of these men because they are going against
the common grain of media and public as yourself and really trying to
learn what is to be a " Promise Keeper". Now, everyone breaks
promises, namely me, one of those submissive little wives with her tail
between her legs.....NOT!
Every does and everyone will always fail everyone else. But when
someone actually makes an effort to be a better person and love a little
more than they did yesterday, then more power to them.
Fred, no need to email back. Obviously we will disagree on this subject
until our emails are blue in the interface but try to take the time to
see and hear from your heart what it is all about....
it really is "all good". ;)
TTFN,
From: dsavage@slip.net
Fred,
You must have missed the last sentence, sir. No argument here and your
wisdom is foolishness to me. You actually have no common sense.
Proceed with your sceptic tank attitude and I will go on with the truth.
It must be very frustrating for you that your one small opinion could
never possibly change the hearts of 1.2 million Promise Keeper
men (plus their happy wives and children).
I'm done with our debate now. Let us agree to disagree. I have much
more important things to do and you bore me.
M-
From: dsavage@slip.net
Fredric L. Rice wrote:
Think again....more deeply now. :)
With your brain please... look back over the emails and see if I asked
for help on anything....nope.
Your organization is called the Sceptic Tank. I found your
organization on a Promise Keeper search for a certain song sung at the
PK meeting. Your article of sceptisism came up on the search results and
I was curious, not in need of help. Now I believe I'm done with
your opinions and septic tank ideas. You seem to focus on sceptic
thinking and totally disregard common sense. I don't understand how you
can live life this way but carry on, lonely man. You are obviously very
bored in life. But that's cool, I have been there. The computer can take
over one's life in such a way. Time for a change maybe? Go fishing.:)
Good luck.
M-
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@raids.org>
fr>> people walk away from abusive relationships
>>>No abuse here.
fr> Why did you contact our organization for help, then? You contacted us.
> Think again....more deeply now. :)
Are you denying that _you_ contacted _us_? Are you aware of what Job
13 has to say about lying for the Jesus god?
From: Greg Lacy <gtla@swbell.net>
It is perfectly clear that you have no idea what a Cult is. As a matter
of fact you are showing your ignorance and probably have one of those
Darwin Fishes on the back of your car. It is also clear that you have
no perception of family values or morals. There are plenty of people
from all colors and walks of life at the rallies. It is high time that
the man take his role in the home seriously, and stop making excuses for
their actions. Be the provider in the home, be the disciplinarian in
the home, and be there for his wife and kids not when he feels like it
but when they need him to be. It is obvious that you are only out to do
some Christian Bashing and are closed minded about anything that gives
you a guilty feeling. So you keep ignoring your family and let the world
teach your kids about sex and about drugs, and you just sit back and be
the "MAN".
Return to The Skeptic Tank's main Index page.
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@raids.org>
To: <patnkelly@toad.net>
Date: Sat, 11 Apr 1998 09:23:18 -0700
Subject: Re: Promise Keeper cult article
> feel stung or challenged by your response.
>>> article together. How bitter and paranoid you must be.
fr> Thanks you for your Christian message. When you have the time, you
fr> might consider enumerating any aspect of the cult's exposure which
fr> is inaccurate or "sadly mistaken."
To: frice@raids.org
Date: Mon, 13 Apr 1998 16:10:28 +0000
Subject: Comment
Of course he does. Imagine the audacity of someone who doesn't need a
cult to tell him how to behave toward his wife. Imagine the audacity of
someone who treats his wife as an equal partnership in a traditional
family pernership. Of course he feels sorry for me.
To: "'frice@raids.org'" <frice@raids.org>
Subject: re: Promise Keepers
Date: Tue, 14 Apr 1998 09:54:18 -0600
Heather
To: frice@raids.org
Date: Sat, 16 May 1998 23:44:24 -0400
Subject: Promise keepers
To: James Dale Wehrli <car@kode.net>
Date: Sun, 17 May 1998 10:46:38 -0700
Subject: Re: Promise keepers
jdw> Do you think it is ok? Are you murderphobic? Just because people
jdw> don't agree with you, you think they are terrible and wrong.
To: frice@raids.org
Subject: Promise Keepers
ttfn
Marinda Savage
To: dsavage@slip.net
Date: Sat May 23 19:25:23 1998
Subject: re:Promise Keepers
>All I have to say is that it wors for me and it was meant to work
>right this way.
>this way and it works for us. So why knock it?
>with a Promise Keeper for a hubby.
>ttfn
>Marinda Savage
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@raids.org>
Date: Sat, 23 May 1998 23:28:18 -0700
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers
> At 23:02 5/22/98 -0700, dsavage@slip.net wrote:
>
> That's too illiterate to pick through. Would you mind reworking your
> statement and try again, please?
> >this way and it works for us. So why knock it?
>
> If you're talking about the Christian God
> you should probably research the fact that the cult doesn't advocate
> "teams." It advocates male domination over the little woman
> and states that the woman has no say-so in her oppression.
> many extremist Christians seem to want to pretend their GOD want them
> to visit upon their wives.
> >Oh, I know why....but that is you and I, myself am a very happy
> >wife with a Promise Keeper for a hubby.
>
> Right. Sure.
> superiors in with your delusions, you end up exhibiting one of the many
> reasons the Christianic death cult has the bloody history that it does.
> self-esteem
Marinda
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@raids.org>
Date: Sun, 24 May 1998 21:19:28 -0700
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers
To: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@raids.org>
Date: Tue, 26 May 1998 09:50:32 -0700
Subject: Promise Keepers
> At 00:14 5/25/98 -0700, dsavage@slip.net wrote:
> >> people walk away from abusive relationships
> >
> >No abuse here.
>
> Why did you contact our organization for help, then? You contacted us.
To: dsavage@slip.net
Date: Tue May 26 19:26:41 1998
Subject: Re: Promise Keepers
To: frice@raids.org
Date: Thu, 18 Jun 1998 22:44:28 -0500
Subject: Promise Keepers (Cult)?
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The Promise Keeper cult: Defending the cult - Part 6