The saga of the Promise Keeper cult defense continues. You'll notice:
From: Harold Chambers <hchambers@home.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PK Cult
Date: Thu, 25 Jun 1998 17:13:03 -0400
I thought your article was quite humurous. I don't think you have any clue as to what Promise Keepers are. You really think that Promise Keepers are a bunch of gay bashing, domineering, wife abusing barbarions? Well, thanks a bunch! I love you too! Really Fredic, we aren't like that nor do they teach us we should be. I went to one PK "cult" rally and the big thing they taught the husbands to do was to love their wives. They talked about the importance of honoring, cherishing, and affirming you wife. They talked about being sensitive and gentle with your wife. I don't recall them saying anything about beating your wife! I am a Promise Keeper. I believe women should be honored, cherished, and respected. I am engaged to a very outspoken woman who is very independant. She was very skeptical about PKs for a while but the way I treat her has shown her that they are geniune. Her and I decide on things together and we have a very balanced relationship. The Bible doesn't teach men to domineer woman, it teaches us to love them and lay down our lives for them as Jesus did for us. Jesus came as a servant, not a domineering "master". I strive to serve my fiance, not rule her. As for homosexuals, I don't think bashing anyone for any reason is right. There is no excuse for bashing, any one who calls themselves a Christian and does so, should repent. But that doesn't mean that there is no right and wrong. The homosexuals I have met are hurting people. They have been through a lot of pain and abuse in their life. I don't think these people should be criticized or attacked, they should be loved. Do I think homosexuality is a sin? Well, I believe the Bible is true and can't deny what it says, "Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion." (Romans 1:26-27 NIV) I don't think this is an excuse to be cruel to homosexuals, but I do think that the lifestyle they live is wrong. Then again I think the lifestyle most people (even A LOT of Christians) is wrong. This doesn't mean I hate them or bash them; only that I don't agree. I am entitled to my own beliefs, right? Okay, just checking. Anyway thought you might want to know a little more about the people your article was bashing.
- THX
From: David Christy <dchristy@vf.lmms.lmco.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keeper's Page
Date: Tue, 30 Jun 1998 14:39:40 -0400
Dear Mr. Rice,
I stumbled across your web page about the Promise Keepers organization and I was shocked by the anger and bias in most of the articles. I don't know much about the Promise Keepers but it is clear to me that you are not putting forth a balanced and fair portrayal of them. Before you go accusing them of hate mongering and other moral offenses, you might want to take a close look at your own motivations in offering up this web site. It might very well be true that they are hateful but your responding with hatred is not at all helpful. As a matter of fact, the bias in your page is so strong that it makes me sympathetic to the Promise Keepers. Surely this is not the effect you are trying to produce?
Dave Christy
From: <dchristy@vf.lmms.lmco.com> (Dave Christy)
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keeper's Page
Date: Wed, 01 Jul 1998 09:36:18 -0400 (EDT)
Dear Mr. Rice,
Thank you for replying to my message. I'm not sure how you attribute my observations about your page as "mind reading" and "projectionism". The bias I mentioned is rampant throughout your text. You ask me to point out any inaccuracies - have you ever seen a banner with swastikas on it at a PK gathering? If not, why have you put one at the top of your page? You refer to participants as "knuckle-draggers" and "Neanderthals". It is my understanding that neanderthal man lived thousands of years ago. To refer to living people as such is an inaccuracy.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion and I see from your main page that you have a lot of them. I understand your councern about the Promise Keepers and find it helpful to have opposing points of view. I am merely suggesting that your anger which expresses itself in name calling casts doubts on the validity of your information. I'm just trying to be helpful - if I've failed, I apologize.
Thanks,
Dave Christy
> You are engaged in the logical fallacy known as "mind reading." Additionally,
> when you pretend to attribute your emotions to others, that's a psychology term
> known as "projectionism." Your local library will have volumes you may review
> to assist in the self-correction of your difficulties.
> When you find anything inaccurate or "sadly mistaken" about the details of the
> Promise Keeper cult as covered here at The Skeptic Tank, please let me know.
> Thanks in advance.
From: "David Benskin-Macks" <daveb@expressimage.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PK
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 14:04:29 -0500
After reading your editorial on "The Promise Keeper Cult", I realized that there is a real war going on in this world. I find it interesting that you have chosen the PK to vent your hate on. Unfortunately I have read the end of the story: you lose; though you don't care. I was once asked how a loving God could send anyone to hell. Now I have the answer. He doesn't have to. They don't want to go to heaven. How can you want to go somewhere that gives a life that you are not interested in. Heaven is a biblical "dead Hebrew" idea. You obviously do not want to spend your eternity with them, so I guess you would not want to strive for it.
I wish you well on the road you have chosen, and I pity the peace and joy you lack
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
To: "David Benskin-Macks" David Benskin-Macks"
Subject: PK
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 13:29:13 -0700
At 14:04 7/7/98 -0500, David Benskin-Macks wrote:
>After reading your editorial on "The Promise Keeper Cult", I realized
>that there is a real war going on in this world.
That's a classical aspect of the mind control which cults impose upon its victims. Traditionally it has been easy to control followers and justify extractions of money, time, and commitment to the cult by instilling in their victims the belief that they are at war and, of course, wars are costly requiring more and more donations.
You can easily side-step the indoctrination, David, by reviewing the facts of the cult; specifically its stated hatred of homosexuals and the admitted oppression of women. When you pause for contemplation in the quiet of the night, you do realize that the Promise Keeper cult is not for you.
Might I suggest you review:
This is a good detailed examination of cult dynamics. It might be able to help you walk away.
From: "David Benskin-Macks" <daveb@expressimage.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PK
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 15:59:27 -0500
Having been a follower of the homosexual agenda for years and now looking at the message that the Christian Bible teaches; and if you look closely at the statements that PK teaches, it is a hate of the action and a love for the person. Can you seperate the two out?? It is easy to take a sentence out of context and use it for what you want. I am independent of the PK movement and have not given money to them. I do not give time to them during the year either. They were the ones to promote giving to your local church first. I submit that you have more than a problem with the PK, you must also have a problem with the mainline Christian Denominations as well. They also promote Homosexuality as sin -- but also promote to love the person that is sinning-- regardless of the sin. The real issue is : Is homosexuality a sin, condemned in scripture or is it what our culture says: a genetic condition, or enviornmental issue
-----Original Message-----
From: Fredric L. Rice <frice@skeptictank.org>
To: David Benskin-Macks <daveb@expressimage.com>
Date: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 3:27 PM
Subject: PK
>At 14:04 7/7/98 -0500, David Benskin-Macks wrote:
>>After reading your editorial on "The Promise Keeper Cult", I realized
>>that there is a real war going on in this world.
>That's a classical aspect of the mind control which cults impose upon
>its victims. Traditionally it has been easy to control followers and
>justify extractions of money, time, and commitment to the cult by
>instilling in their victims the belief that they are at war and, of
>course, wars are costly requiring more and more donations.
>You can easily side-step the indoctrination, David, by reviewing the
>facts of the cult; specifically its stated hatred of homosexuals and
>the admitted oppression of women. When you pause for contemplation in
>the quiet of the night, you do realize that the Promise Keeper cult is
>not for you.
>Might I suggest you review:
>This is a good detailed examination of cult dynamics. It might be able
>to help you walk away.
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
To: "David Benskin-Macks" <daveb@expressimage.com>
Subject: PK
Date: Tue, 07 Jul 1998 18:41:42 -0700
At 15:59 7/7/98 -0500, David Benskin-Macks wrote:
>Having been a follower of the homosexual agenda for years
In other words you're a homosexual in denial. Are you aware of the mental problems which arise as a result of suppressing your innate sexual orientation in favor of unrealistic ideals your cult wishes to indoctrinate you with?
Would you like help?
From: <davehome@expressimage.com> (Dave Benskin-Macks)
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PK
Date: Tue, 7 Jul 1998 22:58:02 -0500
your refusal to answer any questions that I have posed makes you just as bad and just as cultic as you are accusing PK and me. Your arguments and those you play at in your web site have very little foundation in reality. But since you deem that reality is what you make it, I do not expect you to understand.
----------
> From: Fredric L. Rice <frice@skeptictank.org>
> To: David Benskin-Macks <daveb@expressimage.com>
> Subject: PK
> Date: Tuesday, July 07, 1998 8:41 PM
> At 15:59 7/7/98 -0500, David Benskin-Macks wrote:
> >Having been a follower of the homosexual agenda for years
> In other words you're a homosexual in denial. Are you aware of the mental
> problems which arise as a result of suppressing your innate sexual orientation
> in favor of unrealistic ideals your cult wishes to indoctrinate you with?
> Would you like help?
From: "Philip Gretzkowski" <gretzkop@nichols.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers Cult
Date: Wed, 08 Jul 1998 09:46:15 +0000
Organization: Nichols Research
Dear Mr. Rice -
I don't know how current your information posted on the Web is, but I am intrigued by what I've just read. In view of events of the past year and a half, I wonder if you have modified any of your positions on PK's: hate of homosexuality, political aspirations, subjugation of women, or other areas. Do you currently discuss these topics? I am particularly curious about your understanding of what constitutes a religious or social cult.
I am a follower of Jesus Christ and wonder if you have ever had an opportunity to talk with a regular Christian man about the cultural battles being fought in America today. If you have a chance, would you please write me back?
In love,
Phil Gretzkowski
--
phil gretzkowski
NICHOLS RESEARCH
(703) 247-4405
(703) 528-4289, fax
e-mail: gretzkop@nichols.com
From: "David Benskin-Macks" <daveb@expressimage.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PK
Date: Thu, 9 Jul 1998 12:15:07 -0500
Good Morning,
Since you have chosen to ignore my questions, I must assume that to ask anything that is not in the standing you take puts me in the position of being "in a cult". It is hard to communicate with someone who follows only the rules he accepts and counts all others of no consequence. I like having discussions with intellegent people, people that are really open to trying to understand where the other person is coming from. You are definitly not one of those people. You believe what you can see, explain the rest away, and misquote or take out of context statements, so you can have fuel for your arguments. A regular house of cards. I really am sorry that we are not able to communicate. I will reamain in your mind forever in a cult. Funny thing is I have chosen the life I want and the way I want to live it. I do not hurt people, I do not name call, I share the things that have given me peace inside and a reason for wanting to live. If you don't chose the way I have, it is fine. You have to folow what you believe. If you don't you will be very unhappy.
"Good Luck to you"
David
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
To: "Philip Gretzkowski" <gretzkop@nichols.com>
Subject: Promise Keepers Cult
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 08:11:38 -0700
At 09:46 7/8/98 +0000, Philip Gretzkowski wrote:
> Dear Mr. Rice -
Please call me Fred.
> I don't know how current your information posted on the Web is, but I am
> intrigued by what I've just read. In view of events of the past year
> and a half, I wonder if you have modified any of your positions on
> PK's: hate of homosexuality, political aspirations, subjugation of
> women, or other areas. Do you currently discuss these topics?
The cult hasn't implemented any reforms and issued any retractions of its ideologies. In light of the lucrative aspects of homophobia and misogyny it seems unlikely that the cult's leaders ever will.
> I am articularly curious about your understanding of what
> constitutes a religious or social cult.
cult (k¾lt) n. 1.a. A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader. b. The followers of such a religion or sect. 2. A system or community of religious worship and ritual. 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence; religious ceremony and ritual. 4. A usually nonscientific method or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or exceptional power in curing a particular disease. 5.a. Obsessive, especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person, principle, or thing. b. The object of such devotion. 6. An exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic or intellectual interest. --attributive. Often used to modify another noun. --cul“tic or cult“ish adj. --cult“ism n. --cult“ist n.
>I am a follower of Jesus Christ and wonder if you have ever had an
>opportunity to talk with a regular Christian man about the cultural
>battles being fought in America today. If you have a chance, would you
>please write me back?
I've exchanged mail with quite literally thousands of "regular Christian men" and every one of them also harbored the unfortunate delusions that there is some kind of "cultural war" going on. Justifying one's hatreds by pretending one's at war is evil.
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
To: (Dave Benskin-Macks) davehome@expressimage.com
Subject: PK
Date: Thu, 09 Jul 1998 23:07:46 -0700
At 22:58 7/7/98 -0500, Dave Benskin-Macks wrote:
>your refusal to answer any questions that I have posed makes you just as
>bad and just as cultic as you are accusing PK and me.
You didn't answer my question. You have admitted that you're a homosexual and that your cult has made you suppress your true self. I asked you if you would like help. I don't make such offers lightly because The Skeptic Tank doesn't have endless resources.
If you contacted us for help, you must state so clearly and unambiguously. I can put you in touch with exit volunteers and organizations in your area yet the Skeptic Tank Charter forbids providing unsolicited assistance.
Please let us help.
>>>Having been a follower of the homosexual agenda for years
>> In other words you're a homosexual in denial. Are you aware of the
>> mental problems which arise as a result of suppressing your innate
>> sexual orientation in favor of unrealistic ideals your cult wishes
>> to indoctrinate you with?
>> Would you like help?
From: "David Benskin-Macks" <daveb@expressimage.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PK
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 10:38:34 -0500
Congradulations. You would have made a good polititian. If you do not understand something or it goes beyond the training you have, it is condemned as false. I hate giving up, but you are convinced of your position and I am convinced of mine. What you have expressed is opinion, which is ok it is yours. We have that right in this country. Just remember the Judeao-Christian foundation in this country that gave you that right (though I am sure you have an other opinion on that). Get the most out of this life, it is the only one you really know for sure you have.
From: <anonymous@ix.netcom.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: You really don't know what you are talking about
Date: Sat, 11 Jul 1998 18:34:51 -0500
Promise Keepers isn't new. It promotes biblical fundamental truths about the home and marriage. I've been to two Promise Keepers events so far and will go to my third this year.
I in reality have not been a Promise Keeper in my marriage...in fact I had an affair on my wife last summer and was going to end our marriage...Promise Keepers was instrumental in changing this situation.
I came home from the event, confessed my act of adultery to my wife and have since committed myself to my wife, marriage, and family. We have never been happier.
Promise Keepers promotes the man being the leader of the family by servanthood. I treasure my wife and she treasures me. I honor my wife and she honors me.
People who bash Promise Keepers have not experienced it personally in their lives. It is just promoting men to take the responsibility of being a strong active force in their family...taking the lead, being a good role model, teaching their children to honor and love their mother, and to treat women with the respect and dignity they deserve.
EVERY woman I have talked to whose husband has gone to Promise Keepers wants them to go again and again. This year I am brnging my 13 year old son for the first time.
Once again, these aren't new principles of marriage, they are just biblically based.
By the way, notice that my wife even gets top billing in our e-mail address (She is the p for Pam, I am the j for Joe)...I cherish my wife and support her in all she does...she returns this love to me in return.
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
To: "David Benskin-Macks" <daveb@expressimage.com>
Subject: PK
Date: Fri, 10 Jul 1998 18:13:02 -0700
At 10:38 7/10/98 -0500, David Benskin-Macks wrote:
> Congradulations. You would have made a good polititian.
Thank you for that unusual vote of confidence however you didn't answer my question. If you have asked me something which I didn't receive or respond to, please forward to me your query (always taking pains to make it literate so it can be understood) and I will do my best to assist you.
It would also be best to limit your query to one brief sentence so as to reduce the effort required to pick through the precursor rabid preamble which seems to be somewhat traditional.
Lastly, if you harbor further misconceptions vis a vis cults, let me know and I will attempt to assist you in clairification of same.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation.
>> Since you have chosen to ignore my questions,
fr> Which questions might those be? As you probably can appreciate, we get
fr> a great deal of crank mail at The Skeptic Tank, all of which is much too
fr> illiterate to expend time picking through trying to discover what is
fr> trying to be said. When such illiterate, disjointed rants come in, I
fr> usually only review the first sentence or two as that's usually enough
fr> to assist the poor unfortunate individual.
>> I must assume that to ask anything that is not in the standing you
>> take puts me in the position of being "in a cult".
fr> Your assumptions are, of course, yours and have nothing to do with those
fr> you attribute your assumptions to. When discussing the Promise Keeper
fr> cult, we find that the contemporary definition of word usage meets with
fr> the definition of the Promise Keeper cult to wit:
fr> cult (k¾lt) n. 1.a. A religion or religious sect generally
fr> considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often
fr> living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an
fr> authoritarian, charismatic leader. b. The followers of such a
fr> religion or sect. 2. A system or community of religious worship
fr> and ritual. 3. The formal means of expressing religious reverence;
fr> religious ceremony and ritual. 4. A usually nonscientific method
fr> or regimen claimed by its originator to have exclusive or
fr> exceptional power in curing a particular disease. 5.a. Obsessive,
fr> especially faddish, devotion to or veneration for a person,
fr> principle, or thing. b. The object of such devotion. 6. An
fr> exclusive group of persons sharing an esoteric, usually artistic
fr> or intellectual interest. --attributive. Often used to modify
fr> another noun. --cul“tic or cult“ish adj. --cult“ism n. --cult“ist n.
fr> When writing to me in the future, do please consider attempting to employ
fr> some measure of literacy so that I might be able to better assist you.
From: Gary Pierson <gary_pierson@albertsons.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers Cult
Date: Tue, 14 Jul 1998 11:30:44 -0600
what a pack of lies. To answer your question... yes, you are more evil then the Promise Keepers. Why do you fear Christianity? Are you Christaphobic? Your ignorance or bold face mean-spiritedness is quite clear. Like most liberals you cry intolerance and will NOT tolerate Christians. What pure hatred and hypocrisy.
Get a life. Jesus said "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life.".
From: "Philip Gretzkowski" <gretzkop@nichols.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers Cult
Date: Mon, 13 Jul 1998 09:27:58 +0000
Organization: Nichols Research
Fred,
Thanks for writing back. Judging from your response, you've been very active in this discussion for some time. How did you begin to be involved in these issues? Is this a personal crusade? How do you do your research?
Since you've interacted with "literally thousands" of Christian men, I probably don't need to quote Scripture at this point. So maybe just a little about myself.
I'm 39, will have been married for 15 years this August, and am the father of two daughters, 5 and 8 yrs old. I attended my first PK event in 1995. I wasn't aware that I had had any conflicts with homosexuals or women. I just realized at that time that I had struggled to live up to the ideals set before me, and that caring for others more than for myself was difficult. I had a hard time being a consistent dad. I couldn't balance the needs of work and family. I didn't feel like I was connecting to people around me. You know, typical stuff.
I think that these struggles are true for all men. However, these are all issues relating to the heart, and they don't get addressed through movements or groups or politics. They need to worked through on an individual basis, with support of like-minded friends.
I'm re-reading your message, and am picking up some key phrases to which you apparently hold fast: "lucrative aspects of homophobia and misogyny", "delusions [of] culture war", and "justifying one's hatred". This is pretty heavy stuff, Fred. I'm not sure that I'm qualified to address this. I'm just one person called and willing forsake what this world holds dear, so that the people around me (my wife, my daughters, my friends) can blossom. I've found that the key to being all that you can be (to steal from the U.S. Army ad) is to pursue and cling to truth at any cost.
I'm not sure that there are any recent examples of how it would be lucrative to address the homosexual culture in any way other than a conciliatory one. Let's look at what has happened to Reggie White, as an example. You see, what members of Congress, ATT and Nike and others know all too well, is that homosexuals in America represent a more powerful, quick-to-react, and affluent block of consumers than most groups (AARP not withstanding). AIDS, as tragic as it has been, has research funding (on a per-victim basis) at rates significantly higher than all major diseases. My former college roommate is on a National Science Foundation grant approval panel for microbiology and genetics. He says that they're under pressure to fund all AIDS-related projects, even those that lack apparent scientific merit. By the way, he's an athiest and lives in Maine. Is it not axiomatic that to cater to homosexuals is far more lucrative than to speak out against their behavior?
Whether or not a war is occuring is not difficult to say. The rhetoric is certainly fevered. There are surely casualties (in both human terms and in terms of ideas). And certainly there are two sides whose doctrines don't readily allow peaceful coexistance with the other. A war of ideas and ideals is fought in the courts, in the media, and in State legislatures. You don't think that two opposing views are clashing today? If it walks like a duck...
As to hatred, that's a tough one. I hope that you have never personally sensed or received hatred from a single "Christian" man to whom you've spoken. Reports of hatred are one thing, experiencing it is quite another. Don't you think that hatred usually stems from fear? I just can find no justification for a Christian to fear any man, or idea, for that matter. In fact, love (the kind that would cause a man to lay down his life for his friend) overcomes fear. So if you've detected hatred, I'm sorry.
I'd certainly be interested in your thoughts. Fred, we should be able to understand one another, at least. Maybe we could become friends, although I don't think I'll be standing next to you at an upcoming PK event soon.
As an aside, I took my non-Christian older brother to the PK event in Philadelphia this weekend. He didn't dig it at all. He thought that the opening worship session was a little bit too intense for comfort. We left and went home. I love him, after all.
Regards,
Phil
--
phil gretzkowski
NICHOLS RESEARCH
(703) 247-4405
(703) 528-4289, fax
e-mail: gretzkop@nichols.com
From: <gary_pierson@albertsons.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers Cult
Date: Wed, 15 Jul 1998 08:28:51 -0600
Sure. Thanks for returning my email. Didn't know I left a return address. Your greatest lie is calling it a cult. These are simply men who want to change. They want to be committed to their wives and families, and they want to have Christ as the head of their home. I am NOT a Promise Keeper, although I have gone to several of their conferences. I am a personal friend of one of their local leaders.
Calling them a cult is simply ignorance and hate speech. Ignorance because their goal is to make men accountable, and hate speech because ignorance breeds hate. Isn't that the cry of the liberals? These people train men to be men of their word.
I am not sure, but it appears you may live an alternate life style and took Umbrage to the things the Promise Keepers preach. If this is NOT true, my apologies. However, if this is true, the Promise Keepers preach what the Bible teaches. The Promise Keepers don't HATE Homosexuals, they do believe God can change them... maybe even change their desires toward the same sex. Promise Keepers ask them to repent. Period. They don't call them names, or preach any hate toward them.
I am sorry if I offended you, it was not my intention. However, I do believe you write from a very slanted perspective, and I probably read from the alternate. Whichever, Promise Keepers is not a cult. It's simply men trying to support each other and make their way in this world.
G.
From: Rod Swift <rod@ucc.gu.uwa.edu.au>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers Cult
Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 14:13:58 +0800 (GMT+0800)
> >Calling them a cult is simply ignorance and hate speech.
Calling PK a cult is an accurate description as defined by the dictionary.
If you don't like the word cult being used to describe Christians, please contact Merriam Webster and ask them to put a disclaimer "Oh, except christians" under the definition.
> >Ignorance
> >because their goal is to make men accountable, and hate speech because
> >ignorance breeds hate.
If PKers are already Christian, shouldn't they already be accountable? Oh, that's right... Christians only choose to follow the book when it's *convenient*.
"If you be accountable, you can stop beating your wives, and instead beat some church enemies --- like gays".
> >I am not sure, but it appears you may live an alternate life style and
> >took Umbrage to the things the Promise Keepers preach.
Ah, something that "appears" when you haven't "observed". Typical Christian lies. You go straight to hell for that, Job 13.
> > If this is NOT
> >true, my apologies.
How sincere to put such a glib disclaimer. "I'm sorry I threw mud, but it stuck anyway."
> >The Promise Keepers don't HATE
> >Homosexuals, they do believe God can change them...
The Profit Keepers *lie* about homosexuals to *make money*. There is NO scientific evidence of changing homosexual sexual orientation to heterosexual sexual orientation. Even leaders of so-called conversion organizations say their underlying sexual orientation doesn't change, only their exhibited behavior.
Science currently demonstrates that such changes are psychologically damaging to the participant, when they could be happy, well-adjusted gay people.
What you propose is as unethical and immoral as forcing a heterosexual person to attempt to "convert" to homosexuality.
> > Promise Keepers ask them to repent.
I don't care what PK says. I have a brain, unlike most PK followers.
> >Period. They don't call them names, or preach any hate toward them.
Really? Not even Coach Bill's Colorado Amendment 2 performance? Not even the gay bashing that occurs when the stadium events are held?
> >believe you write from a very slanted perspective, and I probably read
> >from the alternate.
I write from a first-hand position of knowledge and evidence.
Rod Swift
P.S. Does Albertsons, which has a non-discrimination policy based on sexual orientation, know you are spreading anti-gay hate mail on the Internet using a company account? My partner is a former employee, you know.
From: Don Osborn <donosborn@integrityonline31.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: pk
Date: Fri, 17 Jul 1998 17:01:02 -0700
Are you the guy writing about Promise Keepers.
Keep it up. It's funny how angry you can be in your ignorance.
I often find I'm not that angry with things I don't know anything about.
This year PK events are free, and to give yourself some credibility, why don't you attend one.
Having been to a few myself, I have not heard a single thing about male dominance. In fact, last year we were encouraged to try to out serve our wives i.e. do the dishes first, beat her to doing the laundry, etc.
but, in any case, have a nice day!
Don
From: Don Osborn <donosborn@integrityonline31.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PK-servanthood
Date: Mon, 20 Jul 1998 21:11:12 -0700
Thanks for your reply.
I don't want to take up to much of your time but I just wanted to mention this. And before you write a response (I don't mind if you don't respond at all), at least read what I have to say and believe that it IS what is encouraged and taught at PK events.
This past weekend I attended a PK stadium event in Minneapolis. First of all, I am not a typical PK'er. That is, I am more drawn to the events for the speaking and Christian instruction than I am for the emotional aspects (singing, raising hands, etc).
Anyway, I just wanted to mention that it saddens and frustrates me when I read about how PK strives to teach male domination, especially over women. While I will not defend everything about PK, I will defend this, and this is a large criticism. This critcism is simply not true. I have been to a few PK events, and I have never heard them teach that idea.
In fact, in the last two years I have heard how husbands are to try to "outserve their wives." That was last year's conference. This year one speaker encouraged us, especially if we had been neglect in treating our wives properly up to that point, to go home and, as an example, sit our wives down, remove her shoes, and wash her feet. In Biblical times this was a common practice because people wore sandals and the roads were made of dirt, so feet were often dirty. It was a strong servanthood act to wash someone's feet. The point of the speaker at this year's conference was for men to express humility before our wives, and serve them with all that we have.
That is the emphasis. Not domination.
I just wanted to pass that along.
thanks
Don
From: Don Osborn <donosborn@integrityonline31.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PK-servanthood
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:29:21 -0700
Ummm... did you read my letter in its entirety?
I was NOT saying that I agree with the notion that PK teaches domination over women. They in fact do NOT teach that but, on the contrary, teach servanthood.
Apparently you either 1) didn't read the rest of my note 2) did read my note and are trying to be cheeky or 3) read my note and, despite what was clearly communciated, fail to understand that PK TEACHES SERVANTHOOD TO WOMEN AND NOT DOMINATION OVER THEM.
Geesh, I didn't know it was so difficult to convey a point to a doubting person.
take care and good luck,
Don
At 10:48 PM 7/20/98 -0700, you wrote:
>> Anyway, I just wanted to mention that it saddens and frustrates me when I
>> read about how PK strives to teach male domination, especially over women.
>It's not surprising. Religious cults have considered women to be merely
>property for far too many centuries for the remaining neanderthals among
>us to learn a superior ethic from their Homo Sapien Sapien betters. The
>need to restore their once privileged position in society is understandable.
>It's great seeing that you learned the truth. If you get a chance, there's >a watch group which reports on the activities of the Promise Keeper cult >that's tailored after Klan Watch. I have their URL somewhere yet you could >do a search for their site for further information.
From: Don Osborn <donosborn@integrityonline31.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PK-servanthood
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 1998 18:30:53 -0700
p.s.
Why do you need to cc. a bunch of people when you and I are having a conversation?
Is it some sort of braggadocio?
Don
>> Anyway, I just wanted to mention that it saddens and frustrates me when I
>> read about how PK strives to teach male domination, especially over women.
>It's not surprising. Religious cults have considered women to be merely
>property for far too many centuries for the remaining neanderthals among
>us to learn a superior ethic from their Homo Sapien Sapien betters. The
>need to restore their once privileged position in society is understandable.
>It's great seeing that you learned the truth. If you get a chance, there's
>a watch group which reports on the activities of the Promise Keeper cult
>that's tailored after Klan Watch. I have their URL somewhere yet you could
>do a search for their site for further information.
From: Rev David Rice <shydavid@net999.com>
To: "Gary Hiles" <amlink@infinet.com>
Subject: Skeptic Tank Just Another Cult
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 08:58:29 -0700
At 03:58 PM 7/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>It doesn't have to be a religion, according to secondary definitions to be
>a cult. There can be a political cult, or other types of groups where such
>structure is in place for it to be one.
Ahhh! VERY GOOD, Gary! I'm surprised: I thought you would never acknowledge that the Promise Keepers cult is a cult. I'm heartened to see you've managed to find the honesty to admit it.
>If you take the dicitionary definition by the letter, as I
>stated and have had no rebuttal, Christ's original Church
>by your definition would have been a cult, so would Islam,
>Confucious, Buddha, Hinduism, Satanism, many cults based
>on myths, and the list goes on.
The cult of Saul (known as "Christianity") was also based upon mythology.
> I find it vary offensive
>and degrading if you would ever make reference that
>Christ, his original followers, their order of worship
>constituted a cult.
No one cares if you find the truth "offensive." All religions are cults: that's what "cult" means.
>And you cannot compare today's sectarian orgainzations to
>that original movement.
>And you cannot define one of those sects a cult over
>another based on some other sects interpretation of what
>they call a cult. Some even go so far to say if you do not
>believe their particular doctrine you are a cult. Let me
>end this whole deal by saying that some people make a
>religion out of their own whims, ideas, even they are a
>god unto themselves, so they qualifiy to have the label
>put on them, according to their own definition a cult, and
>that gentleman is exactly where you fit. The Cult of the
>Skeptic Tank. Your doctrines, your philosophy, your
>attributes and as spawned on others. End of story. If the
>shoe fits where it. You sure do a poor job of applying the
>term to everyone else. And by the way there is a
>difference between a false religion versus a cult. Who
>fashioned the definition of the word to begin with, what
>was their influence, and experience? Is Webster the only
>person who ever defined a word, invented one or created an
>application. And what do you do with the manner in which
>words have changed and the way they have been used over
>time?? Chew on that one a while
Sorry, Humpty Dumpty: you cannot make a word mean something it does not just by pretending. "Cult" still means "religion." Therefore the Promise Keepers cult is a cult, as you already acknowledge. Unfortunately for you, Fredric's Skeptic Tank, being secular, is not a cult.
Do try again, Gary. And do consider that community college or psychiatric help.
---
Rev David Michael Rice
Mariner's Ministries, Dana Point
Shy David's House of Knowledge
http://page.net999.com/shydavid/index.htm
The truth about "Psychics:"
http://holysmoke.org
From: Rev David Rice <shydavid@net999.com>
To: "Gary Hiles" <amlink@infinet.com>
Subject: Truth According to You
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 08:58:36 -0700
At 04:12 PM 7/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>You asked for an example of a non Christian homo who was
>dangerous to children. I gave you one. Now you want to
>slide out of it.
Your memory is exceedingly poor. You claimed that a "loving, Christian family" was good for society. Last time I looked, Christians are still butchering people. The serial killers I'm aware of at the moment were raised by Fundamentalist Christians.
By the way: what makes you think John Gayce wasn't raised by loving Christians?
>And we all witnessed on National television a gay lesbian
>march in New York a few years ago where they jumped on
>police and beat them up and carried on lewd acts in front
>of children. It was so raucous that the police labeled
>them a bunch of animals. What do you say to that one pal.
Sounds like a mob of "pro-life" Christians to me, "pal."
>And these were non Christians.??
Of course the majority were very likely Christians.
>And there were several thousand conducting themselves in
>that manner. And we didn't see one of them stand up and
>say praise the Lord.
You want to see homosexuals praise your god Jesus? Then go to http://www.gaysforgod.org/
You're welcome.
>You are restating what I said from the very start, that
>sexual perversion is not confined to homos, go back and
>read the email. Just because heterosexuals commit such
>crimes, doesn't justify us in condoning the other either.
>By the way I am an astute speller, just a poor typist. You
>try to create issues from non issues. Whoever said that
>most heterosexuals were murderers. I didn't it isn't in my
>email. You know what David, you not only are a poor
>debater and loser, you are like silly putty. When some one
>like me holds your feet to the fire you do a poor job
>squirming out of it and you sure don't qualify as a
>philosopher.
You are just one more precocious child pretending to adults (your intellectual superiors). The worse you can do is amuse us adults with your silly little antics. At best you could learn what you are talking about, as only then can you join the adult community.
> A hope you are a better preacher than you are
>debater because you sure can't keep a straight line on an
>issue. And what did you say was the church again?? COG, a
>cog in a cult? No Doubt?? One thing for sure is it cannot
>be a Christian One, since you and your bunch hate it so
>much.
Yes, of course CoG is a cult, just like the Promise Keepers cult, the Focus on the Family cult, etc. We are quite happy to be acknowledge as a cult by the various USA government agencies, as we have the same right to minister as every other Christian, Muslim, Hindo, whatever cult does.
You'll just have to live with it.
---
Rev David Michael Rice
Mariner's Ministries, Dana Point
Shy David's House of Knowledge
http://page.net999.com/shydavid/index.htm
The truth about "Psychics:"
http://holysmoke.org
From: Rev David Rice <shydavid@net999.com>
To: Guywilliam@aol.com
Subject: The Resurrection of Osiris
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 08:58:25 -0700
>sd> The fact that there is no evidence that Jesus "rose
>sd> from the dead" makes it clear that such a belief is
>sd> at best suspect, and at worse insane.
>How is it possible that you could have so little knowledge of
>the Bible as to make a comment like this?
My knowledge of "the" Bible is considerable. If you have any evidence that one of your gods "rose from the dead," please share it with the word: you'll probably win a Nobel Prize, and be famous throughout the world. WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR?!?!?!?
> It is apparent that the phrase "Reverend" in front of your name
>has nothing to do with your grasp of Biblical knowledge.
My title is "Reverend" because I am a Reverand. While my knowledge of "the" Bible is vast, it is not required to be a reverend.
>Otherwise, in quoting the Bible as a proof for your arguments,
Which is a damn silly thing to do. Why do you not also quote Mother Goose?
>you would have known the biblical mandate within 2nd Timothy
>2:15 that states "Study to show yourself approved before God"
>(KJV). Or how about Acts 17:11 which commends studying and
>searching for truth "Now the Bereans were of more noble
>character than the Thessalonians, for they... examined the
>Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Sorry: I don't believe in the occult. If you have any EVIDENCE that one or more of your gods "rose from the dead," by all means present it. I'd DEARLY love to examine it. Thanks.
>In addition to your lack of Biblical knowledge
"Have you stopped beating your wife?"
>your statements reveal your loose hold on the rules of logic as
>well. It is logically inconsistent to cite Paul as a proof for
>your first point and then to infer he was insane.
You're the one with the illogical beliefs. You should seek help at the local community college. If that doesn't work, I suggest a psychiatrist. If that doesn't help, perhaps a psychopharmacoly should be prescribed.
>sd> You also have yet to see and "evidence" to the contrary
>sd> that David Koresh did not rise from the dead. Do you
>sd> therefore believe he did?
>If the phrase "Reverend" before your name reflects some position >of authority within a church, perhaps it would be wise for you >to review the Biblical mandate found in James 3:1 "Not many of >you should presume to be teachers, my brothers, because you know >that we who teach will be judged more strictly".
I don't believe in your cult, silly. Therefor your occult prattle is meaningless to me.
>I would not normally respond so harshly. But you, claiming to
>be a Reverend (i.e. a religious teacher), have put yourself into
>a dangerous position before God because of your lack of
>knowledge and logic.
Your "god" is an evil, demonic, diseased psychotic: don't take my word for it---- read "the" Bible and you'll see the truth yourself.
---
Rev David Michael Rice
Mariner's Ministries, Dana Point
Shy David's House of Knowledge
http://page.net999.com/shydavid/index.htm
The truth about "Psychics:"
http://holysmoke.org
From: Rev David Rice <shydavid@net999.com>
To: "Gary Hiles" <amlink@infinet.com>
Subject: Rant Analysis
Date: Sun, 19 Jul 1998 08:58:40 -0700
At 04:45 PM 7/21/98 -0400, you wrote:
>You know David, what is your position on people who repent
>and truly change their lives?
My "position" on the issue is not relevant. However I'll tell you anyway.
People who repend and change their lives FOR THE BETTER are to be highly commended by their peers, family, friends, cult members, abd gods (if the have any).
However, the issue is if the Promise Keepers cult is "for the better" or for the worse.
>Are you going to hold their admitted sins and past life
>over their head??
OF COURSE NOT! That's between themselves and their gods.
However, if their "sins" are crimes, then of course I would denounce their "sins." Repenting of a crime is the first start: one must also pay for ones crimes.
>If Bill Mccartney repented and changed his life and was
>moved to action to help others caught in some of the same
>trouble, neglect of his family, perhaps even some abuse,
>don't you think they deserve a little credit for trying to
>help others who are guilty of the same things or are
>headed in that direction??
Er, excuse me for a "time out" here. What makes you think I think or believe otherwise? If Mister McCartney's cult helps people, I'm all for it. But that's not the issue.
>Not everyone holds yours or your brother views on their
>belittling of women.
Traditionally (i.e. historically), Fundamentalist Christianity of the flavor the Promise Keepers espouse, have been murderous for females (women and girls). The Christian clergy was still opposing a woman's right to vote even after black males were granted 3/5th of a vote. Traditional male / female roles is detrimental to womankind. It results in a GIRL POISONING CULTURE (which we currently have, and the Promise Keepers wants to worsen).
>I don't think that is their position at all. In fact many
>of the wives are happy that the men are leading out for a
>change and taking their place and responsiblity as a
>husband and father. Do you find fault with that.
Ten of thousands of people are happy with their cocaine addiction. Do you find fault with that?
If a woman chooses to allow her spouse to husband her like some goddamned animal, she has my full support. Unfortunately, the Promise Keepers cult has specifically MANDATED that the man TELL his spouse that he's her master. Do you recall what Bill told them? He said "Don't ask your wife: TELL HER you're taking over leadership."
>Abuse to children or women is not limited to Christianity
>at all. I would think you know that if you have done any
>study at all.
Did I say otherwise?
By the way, there is excellent evidence that atheists (whom comprise about 12 per cent of the USA population) abuse spouses and children far less, percentage wise (per capita) than their Christian neighbors. Indeed, atheists are right down on the bottom of the list, next to Jews as the least likely to abuse their family members.
Shouldn't Bill McCartney therefore be telling people to think, instead of worshiping the Jesus god? That would be much more socially responsible.
>One of the reasons I took the approach with you guys like
>I did was the manner in which you dealt with others I read
>on your own website. Do you enjoy it? What kind of kick do
>you get out of it?
OF COURSE I enjoy it! The "kick" I get is that any decent, caring human being gets when she or he helps someone discover the facts, and help them with their lives with those facts. I could go on all day testifying to you about all of the lives my web page have benefitted.
>And I really don't hate any of you guys. But what does it
>feel like to have it shoved back in your face and be
>attacked like you did to these people?
I enjoy it: that's what life is all about--- sharing differing opinions. By all means keep "shoving it back." That's what makes life worth living.
>And that isn't to say some of the things you contend are
>right. I thought the writing by Dick Williams was fine. If
>COG stands for the CHURCH OF GOD, you are sure unique
>because I have many friends and acquaintenances in that
>church. I also have a statue of Mary that was sent to me
>because I suffer from a terminal illness. It represents
>the sincere prayers of a fine Roman Catholic. I am
>neither. But their act on my behalf means a lot to me as
>people, regardless if I agree with all the teachings,
>doctrines, practices of their church. It came from their
>heart. Isn't that what counts David? Yes I have been
>pretty tough on you guys, but not with malice but purpose.
>Yes I have known and had close friends who were homosexual
>and I would never try to do anything to hurt any of them
>even though I firmly disprove of their lifestyle. But they
>didn't act like the people in New York either. Can't you
>see the distinction?
It is not your place to "disapprove" of someone's sexuality, any more than it is your place to "disapprove" of someone's skin color. How would you like it if churches full of homosexuals started lobbying government to enact laws against you and I? Damn right, you would object, just as I would. Can't you see the NON-distinction?
>I received a tape in the mail a few years ago from a
>preacher in a certain church sect who was denouncing the
>Jehovah's Witness and Mormons. Some of the things he was
>saying were true and many things were wrong. But here was
>this guy essentially labeling every religion in the world
>a cult that didn't teach his doctrine. Well it so happens
>that I have studied and read the History of these two
>churches and their founders, Smith and Russell. So I
>called this guy and asked him if he ever read anything
>about them at all, attended any of their meetings, or read
>any biography about both the founders and the church. He
>started to evade the question. I held him right to it and
>he admitted he never read much at all about them only what
>others had said or excerps from magazines, yet this guy
>took it upon himself to denounce them with slander. Get
>the point??
Yes: your "point" is that you believe that I have not studied the cults I denounce. Let me ease your mind by informing you that your belief is not founded upon the facts. I have here a large number of articles written by the cults I denounce; I have read their holy books, pamphlets, doctrines; I've attended their meetings, cook-outs, dances.
Even if I were not knowledgeably about a cult, one can still realize that shooting oneself in the foot is a Bad Thing, even if one has never done so before.
>I will ask you and your buddies, have you ever
>been to a Promise Keepers Meeting, sat down and chatted
>with Bill Mccartney or anyone of his associates. I doubt
>it!!
I will ask you, have you ever been to a Hitler Youth meeting, sat down and chatted with David Duke or anyone of his associates? I doubt it! Do you therefore not denounce the Ku Klux Klan?
>Well enough of this stuff. I have other things to do
>and unless you have something conciliatory to say I do not
>have any more time for this dialog. And I am interested in
>many issues I discuss. I have helped many young people
>secure scholarships to college, established a Junior
>Olympic Program where I live, helped to improve our
>community in many ways. I have been married to the same
>dear wife for 30 years, I have two great kids 27 and 23
>and a fine little grandson who I love dearly. We did our
>best for our children, certainly are not perfect parents,
>they weren't perfect kids either, but they are fine young
>people. I didn't beat up my wife or abuse my kids. All
>families have struggles and hardships but it is how you
>end the race that counts.
I disagree. The end of the race holds =NO= importance. It is how one runs the race that counts. In the end, everyone loses.
---
Rev David Michael Rice
Mariner's Ministries, Dana Point
Shy David's House of Knowledge
http://page.net999.com/shydavid/index.htm
The truth about "Psychics:"
http://holysmoke.org
From: "Darla Hornbaker" <linz@bushnell.net>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: a wife speaks
Date: Sun, 26 Jul 1998 21:32:32 -0500
just a note from a promise keepers wife...these groups have done more to build and strengthen my marriage than anything else! this is a wonderful thing for women...men learning how to be good husbands..!!!!! my wish is that you would go to a meeting and check it out for yourself. in the mean time..God bless.....darla hornbaker
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
To: "Darla Hornbaker" <linz@bushnell.net>
Subject: a wife speaks
Date: Mon, 27 Jul 1998 20:41:36 -0700
At 21:32 7/26/98 -0500, Darla Hornbaker wrote:
dh> just a note from a promise keepers wife...these groups have done
dh> more to build and strengthen my marriage than anything else!
If the cult has managed to save your marriage, good for you. I'm glad.
I fully understand how some marriages can benefit by the wife being oppressed and relegated to second-class citizenship "under" the husband, yet it's unfortunate that your marriage couldn't be saved through equality and reason. There was a time in America when marriage was a partnership which couples worked at equally. It seems that traditional family values are something of the past, however.
I wish you the best of luck. If you need a shoulder to cry on in the future, please keep myself in mind. We'll be here when you need us.
From: Dan & Brenda Dunn <captbad@dayton.net>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: PK
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 18:53:44 -0400
It must really suck to be so ignorant. I pity you! May God open your heart and eyes soon!
P.S.
We prayed for you this weekend at Indy!!!
From: "Darla Hornbaker" <linz@bushnell.net>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: a wife speaks
Date: Tue, 28 Jul 1998 10:14:02 -0500
Oh, how i wish you could understand.... 1st of all..my marriage did not need saved. i have a great marriage. Promise Keepers has strengthened us, because it has helped to encourage my husband to be a man who loves the Lord, and wants the best for his family. I am my husbands equal...even the Bible says that. We have different rolls...even in society, people need to do different things to make the world work well. My husband cherishes me, as i do him. He would die for me. He has never once been taught that i need to submit. In fact, he knows that we are equal in God's sight, and that God expects him to respect me. I choose to be a stay at home mom, because my husband has taken on the sole responsibility to provide. But, should i choose to work, he would support that, too. Aand pk has never told him anything contrart to this. He has never been told to make me a sub- person, or to show power over me. He has been told that God expects husbands to Love and Respect wives. Family values? youask where have they gone??? Promise Keepers is all about encouraging family values.!!! I so wish you would attent a meeting, or at least not spread false information. To my knowlegde, in allthe meetings my husband has attended, there has never been any political agenda. Just men wanting to serve God and be better husbands and fathers. If you are not a christian, i don't expect you to understand. However, if you are, please be accountable for what you are saying.
again, God bless you and your family, Mr. Rice.
darla hornbaker
From: "Fredric L. Rice" <frice@skeptictank.org>
To: Dan & Brenda Dunn <captbad@dayton.net>
Subject: PK
Date: Thu, 30 Jul 1998 10:55:00 -0700
At 18:53 7/28/98 -0400, Dan & Brenda Dunn wrote:
>It must really suck to be so ignorant. I pity you!
>May God open your heart and eyes soon!
One of the more interesting aspects of E-Mail from defenders of dangerous and oppressive cultists is their inability to refrain from exhibiting (with their unfortunate rhetoric) their hatred and resentment of the truth.
When you can find anything inaccurate or "sadly mistaken" about the coverage of the Promise Keeper cult here at The Skeptic Tank, I do hope you'll remember to let either myself or someone on staff know about it so that it may be corrected.
Thanks in advance for any assistance you might offer.
>P.S.
>We prayed for you this weekend at Indy!!!
You may think your hatred and resentment at me as you wish yet you can be sure that I'm not harmed in the least by your curses. As an atheist, such curses have no effect whatsoever upon me. You might just as well be throwing your hatred at cheese.
Might I suggest that you devote your free time to reading quietly in a local library on matters of science rather than throwing Christanic curses at your intellectual and moral superiors?
From: "Jeremy Mahurin" <mahurin@rollanet.org>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject:
Date: Fri, 31 Jul 1998 15:07:55 -0500
Get a real Job, because you can't really think that anyone if foolish to beleve your Stupid interpretation of such a great movement as Promise Keepers. It shows We have a lot work to do. Probably by now your looking for a job, because no one would ever take you seriously.
From: "Danny Sanchez" <dsanchez@deltanet.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: You are in my prayers ...
Date: Sat, 1 Aug 1998 19:18:20 -0700
Oragnized religion is designed to scare you into being afraid of hell, spirituality is for those who have been there...
Until you understand that statement, you won't understand Promise Keepers nor any other spiritual group of people.
Danny
From: Michael Wang <samlee@mail.utexas.edu>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Hey man
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 1998 04:40:36 -0500
I say this with ALL due respect: You need to get your facts straight before you start a web site devoted to hate. I couldn't even read through the first paragraph without stopping so many times just to think through your misperceptions. I'm just sad that I don't have more time to correct your information myself, but I think if you really take some honest time, you will find a lot of answers for yourself and then you can funnel all your hatred somewhere else. How about reading the official PK site?
From: Mike Mills <mills@colorado.edu>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers editorial
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 13:37:52 -0600
Organization: LASP
I was pleased to find my anti-Promise Keepers editorial on your web page. The email address given for me is out of date; you may update it as mills@colorado.edu, if you please. The editorial appeared in the Boulder Daily Camera in 1992. It appears to have been read by a number of raving fundamentalists (only one of whom sent me a letter), including my own uncle, right-wing syndicated Boston Herald columnist Don Feder. I haven't spoken to Don in ten years, but his wife (my dad's sister) asked my mom about it at their daughters' wedding a couple of years ago.
Your web page is terrific! Keep up the good work.
Dr. Michael J. Mills
Boulder, Colorado
From: "Peter Morrison" <morrisonpeter@hotmail.com>
To: frice@skeptictank.org
Subject: Promise Keepers
Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 23:04:29 PDT
Hi,
You have probably got a lot of email from your webpage about the Promise Keepers, but I ask that you read mine. From the way you present your page, I can tell you are not a christian, but I will not hold that against you. You brought up a lot of opinions, but I think if you read the book that christianity is based on, you will get all your answers and more. You repetedly said that Promise Keepers bash gays. I being a Christian, have been to a Promise Keepers meeting, and know that they uphold christian beliefs. Christians hate sin, as we belive it is what keeps us from god. We do not hate homosexuals, but we do hate the sin of homosexuality. The Bible is VERY clear on what is Sinful. I would like to hear any questions you have, and pray the Holy Spirit will guide me in my answers. ->PETER<-
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