I learned this first hand when I dared ask participants where the evidence for their claimed deity constructs was. In the channel I saw a great many claims and accusations being made yet never were there any specifics. No names, dates, locations, police reports, docket numbers, case numbers, or anything which could be verified were offered, only vague, ill-defined and untestable claims and accusations. (In fact I have in my archives materials direct from various police agencies which investigate claims of "Satanic ritual abuse" and ALL investigations find that the claims are urban legends perpetuated due to religious hatred and bigotry as well as fear.)

Eventually I was told to check out a web page to find the evidence that I was promised the cult on #apologetics had. After doing so, however, it quickly became apparent that I had been lied to again and, even more obviously, the web pages contained the same old lies I had been subjected to on the IRC channel.

After complaining to one of the masters of the cult in E-Mail, I was greeted with the predictable silence. Eventually, however, I learned that the cult had placed a mock "rebuttal" to my complaint in their web pages in the form of a letter that the cult didn't even bother sending me. After learning about it, I checked the "rebuttal" out and wrote to the cult's master asking why he didn't send me his E-Mail directly -- knowing full well that the reason he didn't was so that he wouldn't be subjected to further embarrassing debunking.

In other words, the cult's master is a coward but he isn't that stupid.

Below follows the dialog which ensued between myself and this "Liars Club." Afterward I will provide a link to the cult's web page so you can see for yourself the frail attempts to try to talk themselves out of actually having to explain why their deity constructs don't appear to exist and why they don't really have any evidence for them.

Toward the end of one of the letters sent by one of the cult's masters, you'll notice the audacious claim that no other religion besides the Christian cult has a concept of evil. If anything Christianity sets the standard by which evil itself is measured inasmuch as no other religion has yet managed to surpass Christianity in same. Yet non-Christians can recognize evil when we see it.

As an aside note, Muslims and Buddhists have managed to reach the bloody body count of Christianity in the early 1990's. A good summation of this decade can be found in Holy Hatred: Religious Conflicts of the 1990's by James A. Haught, ISBN: 0-87975-922-4.

Fredric Rice
Jul 05 96: Mysterious

Greetings!

Well, for some strange and no doubt mysterious reason I didn't receive a message from you though I remember quite clearly asking you to forward your "rebuttal" to my debunking of the "feedback.html" page. Perhaps you missed seeing my request.

Since you elected to dishonestly respond to my debunking publicly in the web page and elected not to forward a copy to me -- your rhetorical intended destination -- how about you reconsider and direct your "rebuttal" to me so that I might once again correct your, um, "mistakes?"

At the same time, please feel free to provide evidence for your deity constructs -- the whole world is waiting, you know. So far all I've seen from you is a fairly pathetic attempt to talk your way out of having to provide evidence for your deity constructs. I was told, as you no doubt remember, that you had some evidence yet for some reason you would appear to be selfishly holding onto it.

Thanks in advance for your assistance.

Bill Greene
Jul 08 96: It's business as usual for Christian, I see

Our assumption was that you were telling the truth when you claimed that you were seeking the truth. Going to our web site *once* for ten minutes belies that claim, if you never went back again; and if you went back again (as we assumed you would, according to your claim), then you would have read anything concerning you.

But hey, what's "truth" in your paradigm, right? ;->

Bill (ProfG on IRC)

Fredric Rice
Jul 08 96: It's business as usual for Christian, I see

Interestingly enough you failed to provide any evidence for the existence of your deity constructs. Now why is that, I wonder... Rhetorically so inasmuch as we both know why you can't come up with any and rather feel the need to try to talk your way out of your problem.

If you do eventually come up with evidence for your deity constructs, you'll let me know, won't you?

Bill Greene
Jul 10 96: It's business as usual for Christian, I see

Well, I see you *still* haven't actually read *any* of our logs. Open mouth, insert... ?

Bill (ProfG on IRC)

Fredric Rice
Jul 10 96: It's business as usual for Christian, I see

Well, once again you elected not to offer me any of the evidence for deity constructs you claim to have. I can't help but question the morality of someone who claims to hold such important evidence and yet elects to hold it selfishly to himself.

Or perhaps there's a technical problem with your web pages -- instead of any evidence, all that your web pages are offering is unevidenced claims and excuses, coupled to quotes from mythical and anonymous forgeries.

If you have evidence, won't you please forward it to me?

Thank you in advance for your assistance.

Fredric Rice
Jul 08 96: It's business as usual for Christian, I see

Oh... Let's not forget about your typical Christian dishonesty of posting your "rebuttal" to my request for evidence publicly rather than addressing it directly to me. You might pause to think about ___why___ you felt the need to do so inasmuch as it should help you discover the validity of your position.

Bill Greene
Jul 10 96: It's business as usual for Christian, I see

Ummm, you really should complain to your ISP about your email service. All "rebuttals" were emailed prior to posting.

Open mouth, insert... ?

Bill (ProfG on IRC)

Fredric Rice
Jul 10 96: It's business as usual for Christian, I see

Ah yes, the convenient excuse Christians so often employ when caught... demand you offered the evidence and it got lost in the mail or, in your case, pretend you forwarded your "rebuttal" and pretend it some how got lost along the way.

Won't you please reconsider sending me your mail again since, as it seems you are now admitting, it "got lost along the way?" That way we can address your dishonestly directly; it wouldn't do to correct your lies and complaints when they were never sent to me, you understand.

Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

Fredric Rice
Jul 11 96: It's business as usual for Christian, I see

Greetings, Bill!

Did you find that evidence yet?

Fredric Rice
Jul 16 96: Just a reminder

Just a friendly reminder:

Did you find that evidence you were looking for?

Fredric Rice
Jul 18 96: It's business as usual for Christian, I see

Say, did you ever find that evidence you were looking for?

Bill Greene
Jul 19 96: It's business as usual for Christian, I see

My ministry is on IRC. Find us there.

Bill G. (ProfG on IRC)

Fredric Rice
Jul 19 96: It's business as usual for Christian, I see

Are you saying that you _do_ have evidence for the existence of your deity constructs but that you're only willing to share it with people who go to the IRC channel? What about people who don't have access to Internet? Are you denying them the information simply because you want to impose such absurd rules?

Please forward your evidence to me -- you seem to claim that you have some, after all. Don't be selfish.

Fredric Rice
Jul 19 96: By the way

By the way: We both know why you won't offer any evidence. We also see that you're a lying coward who feels no moral or ethical constraints about lying for your pretend deity constructs. If you had such evidence you would have offered it long before now. If you had ethics you wouldn't have pretended to send me your "rebuttal" and then LIED about doing so, all the while maintaining your predictable silence when asked for the rebuttal so that it can be shot-down as easily as the rest of your claims and accusations.

People like you prove that Christianity is evil, utterly and without reservation.

Doubt it? provide your evidence AND send me your "rebuttal" so that I may shoot it down like the rest of your unevidenced claims.

Thanks in advance, coward.

Bill Greene
Jul 21 96: By the way

Silly boy. Outside of the Christian theistic paradigm, there is no such thing as "evil," so you have no cause for complaint. :-) If you had actually read any of the logs, you would have known that. :-)

Heheh, Psalm 14:1. Heheh.

Fredric Rice
Jul 22 96: Christian cultists are cowards

bg> My ministry is on IRC. Find us there.

fr> By the way: We both know why you won't offer any evidence.

No argument, I noticed. You're in full agreement, huh?

fr> We also see that you're a lying coward who feels no moral or ethical
fr> constraints about lying for your pretend deity constructs.

Again we find you offer no argument. We have learned together that you will advance any deception, lie any lie whatsoever, by convincing yourself that you're serving your fictional Alpha Male deity construct.

fr> If you had such evidence you would have offered it long before now.

Another undeniable truth... one you can't have any hope of deflecting; unless, of course, you offer evidence which would effectively shut me up.

fr> If you had ethics you wouldn't have pretended to send me your "rebuttal"
fr> and then LIED about doing so, all the while maintaining your predictable
fr> silence when asked for the rebuttal so that it can be shot-down as
fr> easily as the rest of your claims and accusations.

But then you're an extremist Christian cultist. Ethics and morality are beyond your master's concerns inasmuch as greed, avarice, and control are your master's only concerns. By their fruits we know your masters -- and those like yourself who give themselves to them.

fr> People like you prove that Christianity is
fr> evil, utterly and without reservation.

bg> Silly boy. Outside of the Christian theistic paradigm, there is no such
bg> thing as "evil," so you have no cause for complaint. :-) If you had
bg> actually read any of the logs, you would have known that. :-)

Interesting claim; the supposition is that all the other religions around the world -- which number in membership greater than the Christian cult -- all disappear simply because you want to pretend only your cult has a concept of evil.

Amazing.

The audacity of extremist Chrisitan cultists to pretend to a monopoly. How evil of you. In actual fact, most religions -- most people -- on Earth who are aware of the history of the Christian cult recognize it as one of supreme evil; and evil for its own sake, not just greed and avarice.

And you joined it. You must be in agreement with its history.

As for "reading the logs," we have yet to see any evidence of the deity constructs you seem to claim you have evidenced. More: You insist that only those who have access to Undernet IRC be privy to such things. How's _that_ for utter evil?

You are advocating nothing less than Salk withholding his vaccine.

fr> Doubt it? provide your evidence AND send me your "rebuttal" so that I
fr> may shoot it down like the rest of your unevidenced claims.

bg> Ask me again, and I'll be *happy* to forward *all*
bg> of our logs to you. Per your request, of course.

I'm still waiting for you to send me your rhetorical "rebuttal" which you _lied_ about sending me. As it is, I am ethically constrained against debunking your accusations and claims inasmuch as you never directed them toward me. You see, unlike you I have a higher morality and an ethic. No doubt it is the result of my secular education as -- opposed to whatever cultic abuses you suffered as a child and currently labor under to overcome.

You may begin with the text you lied about and _then_ we can start on more of your cult's lies. As it stands, I have launched a web page in your honor -- in your cult's honor, to be accurate. "The Liars Club" web page, in fact.

I do hope you don't mind but every lie, every evasion, every denial of the embarrassing truth shall be appended as they come until such time as you actually offer the evidence that you claimed you have for your deity constructs. Consider it a chance to disseminate the pretend evidence that you will some day send me -- provided we don't all die of old age, of course.

fr> Thanks in advance, coward.

bg> Heheh, Psalm 14:1. Heheh.

A coward who quotes occult mythologies when incapable of thinking for himself -- occult mythologies which are anonymous forgeries in any event.

Present your evidence, coward. The world is waiting.

Thanks in advance for your cooperation.

Other rational people have also pointed out the cult's failings and, interestingly enough, the cult isn't embarrassed by showing some of the notes sent to them by their intellectual superiors:

James J. Lippard, 18 Feb 1996: your links to other sites
Why do you link to patently bogus information, like the "arguments for a young earth" which includes long-discredited arguments like the decay of the earth's magnetic field argument? (See G. Brent Dalrymple, "Can the Earth Be Dated from Decay of Its Magnetic Field?", _Journal of Geological Education_, v. 31, March 1983, pp. 124-133.)

You should, at the very least, provide some links to contrary arguments, such as the extensive talk.origins FAQ archives (see the links on http://www.primenet.com/~lippard/skeptical.html in the creationism section). I think my own page strikes a good balance of pro and con information.

Another interesting thing about the Liars Club is the way even the simplest of questions is evaded, ignored, or "accidentally" misunderstood.

Mon Jul 22 21:30:57 1996
How's this for 'logic?'

    Damocles: Does anyone here have any evidence
              for the existence of deity constructs?

    agathos:  Damocles, what evidence are you looking for?

    Damocles: Wasn't I clear?

    agathos:  Damocles, nope, you weren't

    Damocles: Either that or there is an intellectual
              failing on your part.

    agathos:  Damocles, or perhaps you don't understand
              your own question

Well, that's the nature of deity worship in these technological times: