Newbie
Question answered by honorarykid in Scientology
I_Am_The_Law asked this question on 10/5/2000:
I'm new in town, although I've definitely been to Mann's
Chinese Theater. This mostly seems to be a board of
anti-scientologists that present weird arguments and really
nasty insinuations trying to run down some really fine people,
the Scientologists. I thought in America people were innocent
until proven guilty? Only in Germany did they stir people up
without even any indictments! (it's called a lynchin'!) What gives
here? Why all the lies?
honorarykid gave this response on 10/6/2000:
Hi I_Am_The_Law,
I think boasting to Los Angelinos that you've been to Mann's
Chinese Theater would certainly mark you as a tourist.
And now for the diatribe (and don't say you didn't know it
was coming). ;-)
First, if you care to point out some of my arguments that
you think are weird, or false, please do. We can discuss
them and try to get some closure. But I suspect you don't
want closure, do you? Do you really just want to take over
and control this situation, and magically make criticisms of
Scientology go away? Am I right? Is that what you want?
Dang, I sure hope I'm wrong.
Also, let me say, I try not to be nasty toward
Scientologists. Honest!
I admit that I have been a little provocative around the
pro-Scientology expert "Mr. Rogers." But carrying on a
conversation with him is like walking on eggshells. If I'm not
in complete 100% agreement with him, it seems like his only
response is to start yelling and labeling me as a Evil Nazi
Vampire Bigot. Sheesh! All I wanted to do was talk about
what constitutes scientific evidence with him, and perhaps
persuade him that people who don't believe in Thetans are
still people, with sincerely held beliefs of their own. We still
deserve a modicum of courtesy, even if Scientologists think
we are nothing but raw meat.
Third, you mentioned the presumption of innocence. That
principle does not apply here. The presumption of innocence
is a legal presumption.
It has to do only with the way the government treats
people, via it's mechanisms of law enforcement and
jurisprudence.
The presumption of innocence has nothing to do with the
way private individuals treat each other. It has nothing to
do with the way ideas are treated in public forums. In fact,
the government cannot infringe on our rights to speak. It
cannot lawfully stop us saying unflattering things about
others, because we have a constitutionally guaranteed right
to free speech. Ergo, people can say unflattering things
about churches and political groups, and their speech is
completely legal.
Fourth, you're very wrong to equate peaceful criticisms, no
matter how strident, with violent lynchings.
Peaceful and persuasive free speech has been a powerful
tool for preventing lynchings. Peaceful criticism and free
speech is a way to effect PEACEFUL, NON-VIOLENT political
change. Without the right to criticize with our speech, we
might be forced more often to physically fight for political
change, with guns and armies and such.
If you study the civil rights marches in the Southern U.S. in
the sixties, you'll see a clear example of how forceful,
demanding, but peaceful criticism altered the public
discourse and the changed for the better, the public's tacit
acceptance of a political inertia which included oppressive,
murderous racism.
Those brave acts of criticism helped to make the idea of
lynching people because of their skin color, an almost
unthinkable act today, even in the subculture that thought
very little of lynching people just 50 years ago.
Unfortunately, we still have not yet eradicated lynchings
completely, so this battle is not over. That's why we must
continue to speak out against racism and oppression and
other bad things, whereever and whenever we see them.
That is our ethical obligation as citizens in a (mostly) free
society.
Though I certainly don't equate the sheer destructiveness of
KKK lynchings with Scientology's sneaky and manipulative
personal abuses, I do claim that both types of abuse are
driven by institutional malfeasance, i.e. the formal training of
people to have bigoted, totalitarian, elitist, intolerant and
inaccurate assumptions about outsiders to the group.
So that's what I am doing here. I'm opposing wrongdoing
and political abuses of people, families and institutions by
the the Church of Scientology.
I believe that when Scientology and Scientologists make
ludicrous claims about suppressives and people called 'PTS',
when you unilaterally decide it you have some legal "right" to
"handle" such people, Scientology becomes an oppressive
political force, somewhat analagous to the oppressive
system by which white people suppressed and enslaved
black people.
Now, let me see if I can guess what you're thinking. You've
never seen anything akin to what I'm talking about in
Scientology, right?
I'm not interested. I've heard this from Scientologists a
thousand times. If you can see zero truth in what I'm
saying, if you see nothing bad, see nothing that needs
improving within the political entity that is the Church of
Scientology, you simply aren't looking very hard. In fact, you
need to be working hard NOT to see it.
If it is your goal, consciously or subconsciously, to block
criticism, and to obstruct ethical reform and peaceful
protest, we'll definitely be at idealogical loggerheads.
But take this next statement to the bank. Rabid, irrational
and totalistic Scientologists will lose the memetic, idealogical
battle that is now going on in cyberspace. They will lose
because ultimately, in opposing legal, peaceful, and
meritorious protestations of CoS wrongdoing, they will be
forced to defend bad, oppressive and illegal behaviors.
The public will see this, and ultimately realize that the
Church of Scientology is built on moral and ethical
quicksand. They will know that Scientology's nicey-nice
creeds are little more than window dressing (or in the
Scientology vernacular, they'll understand the creed to be a
"shore story").
Don't get me wrong. I don't claim that all Scientologists
refuse to take their creed seriously.
But if you do, then act! Stop permitting your church to
continue it's behaviors which abuse and hurt people. If you
care for the CoS at all, raise your voice in protest with me
and you might save your church before it collapses under
the weight of it's own tawdry political inertia.
G'day.
I_Am_The_Law rated this answer:
Isn't that sweet. Your criticisms aren't peaceful, and other
people have the freedom of speech. You need to clear up the
word violent. You probably are abusing everyone around you.
And you are despicable to wrap yourself in MLK's mantle.
You're a hatemonger. All you do is insane rantings and attacks.
I have seen much good in Scientology. But you never care to
hear from the thousands of Scientologists you heard from (your
words) how much they like Scientology because that would
interrupt your delusions, wouldn't it? Something in your mind
set you up as an official but I will point out you are no-body,
and have nothing to do with the Church of Scientology. You
should try to reform Firestone or something. I reiterate, earth
to honarykid, you don't have anything to do with the Church of
Scientology. Try reforming Microsoft. You will never achieve
your ugly Nazi goal. Who knows what in the heck you're talking
about!
The sun never sets on Scientology. But what's really funny, is
the sun will be setting on you.
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