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Question answered by honorarykid in Scientology

I_Am_The_Law asked this question on 10/5/2000:

I'm new in town, although I've definitely been to Mann's Chinese Theater. This mostly seems to be a board of anti-scientologists that present weird arguments and really nasty insinuations trying to run down some really fine people, the Scientologists. I thought in America people were innocent until proven guilty? Only in Germany did they stir people up without even any indictments! (it's called a lynchin'!) What gives here? Why all the lies?

honorarykid gave this response on 10/6/2000:

Hi I_Am_The_Law,

I think boasting to Los Angelinos that you've been to Mann's Chinese Theater would certainly mark you as a tourist.

And now for the diatribe (and don't say you didn't know it was coming). ;-)

First, if you care to point out some of my arguments that you think are weird, or false, please do. We can discuss them and try to get some closure. But I suspect you don't want closure, do you? Do you really just want to take over and control this situation, and magically make criticisms of Scientology go away? Am I right? Is that what you want? Dang, I sure hope I'm wrong.

Also, let me say, I try not to be nasty toward Scientologists. Honest!

I admit that I have been a little provocative around the pro-Scientology expert "Mr. Rogers." But carrying on a conversation with him is like walking on eggshells. If I'm not in complete 100% agreement with him, it seems like his only response is to start yelling and labeling me as a Evil Nazi Vampire Bigot. Sheesh! All I wanted to do was talk about what constitutes scientific evidence with him, and perhaps persuade him that people who don't believe in Thetans are still people, with sincerely held beliefs of their own. We still deserve a modicum of courtesy, even if Scientologists think we are nothing but raw meat.

Third, you mentioned the presumption of innocence. That principle does not apply here. The presumption of innocence is a legal presumption.

It has to do only with the way the government treats people, via it's mechanisms of law enforcement and jurisprudence.

The presumption of innocence has nothing to do with the way private individuals treat each other. It has nothing to do with the way ideas are treated in public forums. In fact, the government cannot infringe on our rights to speak. It cannot lawfully stop us saying unflattering things about others, because we have a constitutionally guaranteed right to free speech. Ergo, people can say unflattering things about churches and political groups, and their speech is completely legal.

Fourth, you're very wrong to equate peaceful criticisms, no matter how strident, with violent lynchings.

Peaceful and persuasive free speech has been a powerful tool for preventing lynchings. Peaceful criticism and free speech is a way to effect PEACEFUL, NON-VIOLENT political change. Without the right to criticize with our speech, we might be forced more often to physically fight for political change, with guns and armies and such.

If you study the civil rights marches in the Southern U.S. in the sixties, you'll see a clear example of how forceful, demanding, but peaceful criticism altered the public discourse and the changed for the better, the public's tacit acceptance of a political inertia which included oppressive, murderous racism.

Those brave acts of criticism helped to make the idea of lynching people because of their skin color, an almost unthinkable act today, even in the subculture that thought very little of lynching people just 50 years ago.

Unfortunately, we still have not yet eradicated lynchings completely, so this battle is not over. That's why we must continue to speak out against racism and oppression and other bad things, whereever and whenever we see them. That is our ethical obligation as citizens in a (mostly) free society.

Though I certainly don't equate the sheer destructiveness of KKK lynchings with Scientology's sneaky and manipulative personal abuses, I do claim that both types of abuse are driven by institutional malfeasance, i.e. the formal training of people to have bigoted, totalitarian, elitist, intolerant and inaccurate assumptions about outsiders to the group.

So that's what I am doing here. I'm opposing wrongdoing and political abuses of people, families and institutions by the the Church of Scientology.

I believe that when Scientology and Scientologists make ludicrous claims about suppressives and people called 'PTS', when you unilaterally decide it you have some legal "right" to "handle" such people, Scientology becomes an oppressive political force, somewhat analagous to the oppressive system by which white people suppressed and enslaved black people.

Now, let me see if I can guess what you're thinking. You've never seen anything akin to what I'm talking about in Scientology, right?

I'm not interested. I've heard this from Scientologists a thousand times. If you can see zero truth in what I'm saying, if you see nothing bad, see nothing that needs improving within the political entity that is the Church of Scientology, you simply aren't looking very hard. In fact, you need to be working hard NOT to see it.

If it is your goal, consciously or subconsciously, to block criticism, and to obstruct ethical reform and peaceful protest, we'll definitely be at idealogical loggerheads.

But take this next statement to the bank. Rabid, irrational and totalistic Scientologists will lose the memetic, idealogical battle that is now going on in cyberspace. They will lose because ultimately, in opposing legal, peaceful, and meritorious protestations of CoS wrongdoing, they will be forced to defend bad, oppressive and illegal behaviors.

The public will see this, and ultimately realize that the Church of Scientology is built on moral and ethical quicksand. They will know that Scientology's nicey-nice creeds are little more than window dressing (or in the Scientology vernacular, they'll understand the creed to be a "shore story").

Don't get me wrong. I don't claim that all Scientologists refuse to take their creed seriously.

But if you do, then act! Stop permitting your church to continue it's behaviors which abuse and hurt people. If you care for the CoS at all, raise your voice in protest with me and you might save your church before it collapses under the weight of it's own tawdry political inertia.

G'day.

I_Am_The_Law rated this answer:

Isn't that sweet. Your criticisms aren't peaceful, and other people have the freedom of speech. You need to clear up the word violent. You probably are abusing everyone around you. And you are despicable to wrap yourself in MLK's mantle. You're a hatemonger. All you do is insane rantings and attacks. I have seen much good in Scientology. But you never care to hear from the thousands of Scientologists you heard from (your words) how much they like Scientology because that would interrupt your delusions, wouldn't it? Something in your mind set you up as an official but I will point out you are no-body, and have nothing to do with the Church of Scientology. You should try to reform Firestone or something. I reiterate, earth to honarykid, you don't have anything to do with the Church of Scientology. Try reforming Microsoft. You will never achieve your ugly Nazi goal. Who knows what in the heck you're talking about!

The sun never sets on Scientology. But what's really funny, is the sun will be setting on you.

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