
By: FSNS Goliath BBS
Re: holysmoke.faq.aa

                               Ŀ
                               UPDATED VERSION
                               

  
Header
Ŀ
  The HOLYSMOKE Frequently Asked Questions List                    
     
  Created by David Rice                                            
     
  Current Author: C. J. Henshaw                                    
     
   Author/Editor: Rev. Coridon Henshaw (Church of OS/2)            
     
                                                                   
     
  Last Revised 15 Jan 11996 - Revision 666.025                     
     
                                                                   
     
  Compilation Copyright 1995 Coridon Henshaw.  All rights 
reserved.     
  Individual quotations remain the property of their respective 
owners. 
  Free license for intra-HOLYSMOKE duplication and distribution.   
     
  DUPLICATION OR DISCLOSURE TO NON-HOLYSMOKE PARTICIPENTS 
PROHIBITED.   
                                                                   
     
  If you are reading this on a WWW site, inform the author at the  
     
  address at the bottom of this file.                              
     
  
45
92ٱ
    



Disclaimers


     This product warps space and time in it's temporal and spacial 
location.
     Do not expose to antimatter.  Will not block gunfire.  Do not 
ignite.  Do
     not eat.  Definitions of words may vary.  Contents may settle 
during
     transfer.

1: 
Introduction


                    Ŀ
                    YOU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE, DIPSHIT!
                    

                         See section 4.3 for details.

Ŀrobe
Ŀ
YOU CAN'T PROVE A NEGATIVE, DIPSHIT!rtjaYOU CAN'T PROVE A 
NEGATIVE, DIPSHIT!
ckso


The HOLYSMOKE echo exists so that off-topic religious issues from 
other echoes
in Fidonet may be moved to an echo where they are topical.  No one 
in the past
four years has yet succeeded in helping any theist think past their
brainwashing, but there's always the chance that some god-believing 
cash-cow
will stop denying reality, so we continue to try.

All entries marked [OBSOLETE] will be deleted in the next version 
unless
someone asks for them to be retained.

This document is posted every four weeks.

2: 
Terminology


atheist   One who has no belief in deities.  See 3.x for details.
Atheist   Member of Amarican Athiests, inc.
athiest   Used by theists to refer to those without morals.
agnostic  An atheist without guts.
fundi     Religous fundamentalist.  See 3.6 for details.
liberal   Anyone winning an argument with a creationist.
Hir       Gender-neutral noun, "Her + Him = Hir."

3: 
Q&A


3.1  Q:   What is HOLYSMOKE?
     A:   HOLYSMOKE is Fidonet's only non-denominational, 
uncensored religion
          debate echo.  Debates such as fundies vs athists can be 
conducted
          here without danger of loosing your feed, like in other 
areas such
          as HOLY_BIBLE or any other "christian" echo.

3.2  Q:   Why was HOLYSMOKE created?
     A:   The moderator (Styx Allum) originally started the echo as 
a joke on
          some local fundies.  It took off from there.

3.3  Q:   What kind of behavior is alowed here?
     A:   Most anything, including flames.  One thing that will get 
you
          booted is modification of other people's quotes.  If 
somebody says
          fuck and you quote them and change 'fuck' to 'f***' or 
some other
          variation, you will be clobbered.  Check the rules 
(posted on an
          ad-hoc basis by the moderator) for more information.

3.4  Q:   Are "flames" allowed?
     A:   Flames are EXPECTED.  You will be treated with respect 
and courtesy
          if you extend it.  The most valuable contributors, who 
provide
          references to what they say, are very seldom flamed -- if 
you don't
          like flames, stick to posting what you know or can 
validate.
          Saying "Because I say so," "Because I was told so" or 
reading
          'PROOF' where someone wrote 'EVIDENCE' will turn you 
medium-rare.

     A:   It, seriously, depends on how you look at it.  There are 
times when
          a "polite" discourse just doesn'tget the message across.  
Then, the
          board between the eyes to get your attention works.  [Dan 
Ceppa]

.4.1 Q:   Will argument from authority get me flamed?
     A:   Depends on the authority, and if you keep all quotes in 
context and
          content.  Claiming that several bright people support your
          assertions therefore your assertions are true DOES NOT 
make it so.
          Don't quote an astronomer on issues of biology, and a 
biologist on
          cosmology-- which is standard Creationist tactics-- 
because you
          will get roasted.  Saying "Einstein believed in God (he 
didn't)
          therefore you should" will also get you roasted-- bright 
people CAN
          and DO believe silly things; just because someone is well 
educated
          in one field does not make hir an expert in other fields.

.4.2 Q:   Will poor spelling get flamed?
     A:   Often we see theists who mix up "Their, there, and 
they're," "Too,
          to, and two," "atheist" as "athiest," and "your" for 
"you're." They
          then in that very same message proclaim to reveal the 
secrets of
          God, the Universe, Life and all the Really Great 
Questions humans
          have pondered for a dozen millennia-- somehow a crappy 
speller
          telling us they know what no one else does just doesn't 
seem
          likely.  If one does not know the difference between 
"Their" and
          "they're" worth a Goat Belch, isn't it rather PRETENTIOUS 
for one
          to be telling us all about how much one knows about god 
and the
          universe?!

3.5  Q:   Why is the phrases "You seem bitter" and "My, you're so 
full of
          anger" so often used by religionists in HolySmoke?
     A:   These phrases are often used as replies to excessively 
abrasive
          arguments by an agnostic or atheist that has demonstrated 
the
          religionist's pet assertions false; the religionist 
resorts to
          eliciting an emotional response instead of addressing the 
topic at
          hand.
     A:   You may be missing the point.  The people who are 
ridiculed (as it
          were) are not those who profess a simple belief in a 
creator; they
          are those who insist their beliefs are correct and we 
MUST ALL bow
          down before GOD before we all roast in Hell.  Then there 
are those
          who make ridiculous claims about the veracity of their 
"Book" and
          attempt to use pseudo-science to "prove" they are right.  
As for
          myself, I could care less who a person worships, although 
I usually
          strongly disagree with their intent.  As a secular 
student of
          biblical times, I have learned a lot about what 
Christianity was
          really all about (IMHO) and what life was like in 
first-century
          Judah.  Personally, I feel those who take the Bible 
literally and
          those who follow Pauline thought should study more, and a
attempt to
          understand what was REALLY going on!  By far the biggest 
problem
          though, are those who insist I should pay to support their
          religion.  Our city supports a separate school system for
          Catholics, and the duplication of services and buildings 
costs
          every one of us.  There are many examples of religion 
being pushed
          on those who do not wish it.  We who do NOT wish to have 
anything
          to do with religion must suffer through innumerable 
disturbances
          from people who insist their religion should be in the 
forefront.
          THOSE are the people who are the targets of ridicule in 
this echo!
          [John Musselwhite]

3.6  Q:   What is a `fundi'? (Also, fundy, fundies)
     A:   FUNDIE (fun'dee) n. and adj.  (pl.  Fundies), A member of 
an
          American conservative religious movement that believes in 
biblical
          inerrancy.  This movement had its roots in the 
nineteenth-century
          orthodox reaction to the higher (historico- literary) 
criticism of
          the Bible that originated among European theologians and 
was
          accepted by American "modernists".  Fundamentalism owes 
its name to
          the "Five Fundamentals", a list of five beliefs that the
          Presbyterian General Assembly drew up in 1910 as being 
essential to
          the Christian faith.  Among those fundamentals was the 
doctrine
          of biblical inerrancy.

          Fundies (scientifically: Homo nesciens idiotus) come in two
          varieties; (about more later) but are united by the
belief that
          each and every word ("jot and tittle") of the Holy Writ 
(at least,
          their latest authorized version) is unequivocally true.  
When they
          find a text convenient to an argument, it is quotable as 
the
          ultimate truth.  But when confronted with an apparent
          contradiction, however rational and logical, they sail 
away upon
          the wings of a symbol, an analogy of hidden or recondite
          significance.

          Although two separate and distinct "kinds" of fundies 
exist,
          (H.n.i.  var. ruralensis and H.n.i.  var.  urbanensis), 
they can be
          typically identified by their ubiquitous possession of a 
heavily
          thumped (but seldom read) Bible; an almost cataleptic and
          unquestioned adherence to dated dogma and the 
extraordinarily
          annoying ability of being able to interject their own 
personal
          version of ethics and morality into almost any subject, 
no matter
          how abstruse.  As a group, they are exasperatingly 
uni-dimensional.

          H.n.i.  var.  ruralensis can be typified as a backwoods 
rustic
          living among the 'possums, 'coons, 'dillos and magnolias 
who is
          functionally illiterate.  Though some may become 
transplanted to
          more municipal settings; they stubbornly adhere to old 
habits:
          mouth breathing, barefootedness and brainless Bible-based 
bleating.

          A macroevolutionary jump (although most would argue that 
it is
          really a regressive event) is responsible for the other 
variety:
          H.n.i.  var. urbanensis.  They arose from their humbler 
cousins in
          the deep, dark, dank backwoods but have evolved to 
exploit the
          trophism of bright lights, television cameras, 
teleprompters and
          wireless communication.  Basically, a member of this 
group can be
          described as a country bumpkin of the wacko-right turned 
religious
          zealot and usually named Billy, Jimmy, Oral or some other 
familiar
          sobriquet.  They drape the mantle of Christian piety 
around their
          shoulders (which they carefully interweave with the 
American
          flag), and stomping off on a witch hunt; ferret out "fellow
          travelers", "one-worlders", that archenemy of all right 
thinking
          people: the "secular humanist", and other assorted 
bogeymen.  With
          a primitive view of this world and a psychedelic view of 
the next,
          they harangue lost sinners (and those with the ability to 
think for
          themselves) in an impassioned and declamatory style to 
"REPENT!"
          and be born again.  Ranting and raving; and spouting 
smoke, fury,
          fire, brimstone and stained glass blather; they pace 
whatever
          stage they can usurp like a whirling dervish with a 
caffeine
          addiction.  The venue may change, but the song always 
remains the
          same.

          Usually, such narrowly unspecialized organisms as the 
ones cited
          above represent an evolutionary dead-end.  In these 
cases, though,
          it is more of a U-turn. [Marty Leipzig]

     A:   Fundy is short for a combination of two words emerging 
from the
          same Latin root, _fundus_ (bottom), from whence _fundare_ 
(to lay
          the bottom).  The English _fundament_ refers to 1. the 
buttocks.
          2. the anus.  Religious extremists, who do their thinking 
with
          these organs, practice _fundamentalism_: 1. orthodox 
religious
          beliefs based on a literal interpretation of the Bible.  
2. Among
          some American Protestants, the movement based on this 
belief:
          opposed to _modernism_. [Don Martin]

3.7  Q:   "Why is everyone picking on me?"
     A:   Chances are, you deserve it.  When someone asserts wild and
          baseless claims, and then insists that others believe 
these claims,
          one may expect a little heat.  Some assertions that 
generate heat:
          "My book was written by god because it says so, and god 
wouldn't
          lie." "God hates such-and-such." "God loves 
such-and-such." "I'll
          pray for you, you stupid ignorant gibbering idiot pitiful
          atheists."


.7.0 Q:   "Why is everyone attacking me?  I'm only giving you the 
Good News"
     A:   Look.  You don't see it as being offensive, or pushing, 
or whatever,
          [to preach at us] but then *you* aren't the one being 
offended, are
          you.  Think of it in these terms: you are not the one who 
decides
          whether or not someone else wants to hear about your 
religious views.
          Indeed, the other person may have very well-formed and 
solid
          religious views of their own.  And your rather rude 
insistence on
          discussing your religion and why that other person should 
start
          *following* your religion is offensive.  Understand?  Its 
not the
          content of the message which is offensive.  Its the 
assumption that
          you, as a Christian, have some sort of universal 
permission to ram
          that message down our throats that makes us mad at you. 
[Jack Butler]

.7.1 Q:   Everyone is calling me a bigot because I stand for 
Christ!  [Oh,
          PLEASE drive those nails in harder!]

     A:   Incorrect.  Anyone who discriminates based on prejudice 
or other
          unreasoned foundation is labelled 'bigot'.  If blacks 
were known to
          be rampant killers with no sense of the value of life, 
you would
          not be a bigot to be afraid of them, or to point out that 
they need
          to be controlled.

          However, blacks are not rampant killers.  Indeed, the only
          distinguishing feature, as a group compared to whites as 
a group,
          is their skin pigmentation - hardly a worthy basis for 
fearing or
          controlling them.

          You see?  Someone who discriminates against blacks simply 
because
          they are black is a bigot - the discrimination is entirely
          unwarranted.

          Many Christians are shown to be bigots by the words and 
their
          actions.  They discriminate against gays, against people 
who have
          sex before marriage, against women, against scientists.  
All of
          that discrimination is based on - and please make very 
careful note
          of this - ***nothing*** more than their personal choice 
to adopt a
          belief system of which such discrimination is an inherent 
part.

          You can't point to God.  You can't show that he exists.  
There is
          asbolutley nothing in all of observed reality which even 
hints at
          any deity, let alone a specific deity.  The only way to 
adopt the
          belief in such a being is *purely* by personal choice.  
You choose
          to adopt a belief of discrimination and hatred.

          Can you see now why disliking Christians, or more 
accurately the
          Christian dogma, is not necessarily bigotry, but rather 
is a sane
          and rational response to a very real threat? [Kelsey 
Bjarnason]

3.8  Q:   What is "Crucifixation?"
     A:   A state of mental duress, usually inside a fundamentalist 
Christian
          brain, that admires blood, guts, suffering, agony, 
drinking blood
          of God and eating His body, and usually wishes to be 
crucified and
          martyred hirself.  This fixation prevents those afflicted 
with it
          to question why Jews would crucify a heretic in the Roman 
fashion,
          when death by stoning was the preferred method of 
disposing of sons
          of Gods.

3.9  Q:   What is the "Flood Of Ignorance?"
     A:   This is a reference to the so-called global flood 'theory'
          presented by biblical literalists.

3.10 Q:   What is "One Nation Under God?"
     A:   The state of theocratic opression that fundamentalists 
desire to
          impose on the country in which they reside.

3.11 Q:   What is a "Creationist?"
     A:   One who believes that the earth was created in six days, 
exactly as
          told in the bible.  Such people always fail to notice the 
two
          different creation accounts contained in Genisis 1:x and 
2:x.

3.12 Q:   What's this "IHS!" thing?
     A:   This can mean a great many things!  It was originally 
coined by a
          HolySmoke Regular to mean "In His Service!" though it is 
not clear
          just who "His" may be.  Usual variations may mean "I'm 
Happy
          Stupid!" SHIt backwards, "I'm Helping Satan!" "In Hitler's
          Service!" "I Hate Science!" "Idiot Has Spoken!" "I heat 
sausage!"
          "I Hate Spam!" and others far too numerous to mention. 
The most
          common usage in HOLYSMOKE means "BULLtIHS!" The original 
meaning is
          "In Hoc Signum Vincit," referring to the Christian 
crucifix as "By
          this sign we conquer." [OBSOLETE]

3.13 Q:   What is a "Not Real True Christian?"
     A:   When atrocities are performed by Christians in the name 
of God,
          their partners in religion say they were not Real True 
Christians.
          Some famous Not Real True Christians include Jim Bakker, 
Jimmy
          Swaggart, Jim Jones, Adolph Hitler, Jerry Falwell, All 
Catholics,
          Jeffrey Dahlmer, Mike Warnke, John "Todd" Collins, 
Mormons, God
          Jehovah, John Salvi, Paul Hill, Senator Exon, Timothy 
Mcvay, David
          Koresh and the IRA.
     A:   Any Christian who belongs to a 'false christian' sect.  For
          example, Catholics are false christians to Protestants.
.13.1Q:   Now hold on here.  You can't responsibly group those
obviously
          psychotic fringe groups that claim to be of God with the 
true
          Christians among us.
     A:   Why not group "those obviously psychotic fringe groups" 
with the
          rest of the *cough, cough* "True Christians"?  You "True
          Christians" do exactly the same thing you decry above, 
against
          groups with which you disagree -- i.e., you characterize 
all gays
          and lesbians from the actions of extremist ACT UP 
affinity groups;
          you characterize all pro-choice people from the 
activities of a few
          doctors who perform late-term abortions [in emergencies]; 
you
          characterize all Liberals from the views of a few who are
          doctrinaire Leftists.  You and your kind demonize your 
opponents
          from the actions of a few of the most extreme of their 
kind, yet
          expect to be exempt from similar stigmatization? [Paul 
Boyer]

.13.2Q:  What is a "Real True Christian?"
     A:   The Christian that you happen to be talking to at this 
minute.

.13.3Q:  What is a cult?
     A:   Anyone who doesn't belong to the same religous group that 
you do.
     A:   A religon without political power.

3.14 Q:   What does "IS NOT!" mean?
     A:   This is the common reference to Christian foot-stomping 
arguments.
          (I.E. It's so because I say it is!)

3.15 Q:   What is the "Theory of Creation Science?"
     A:   The exact account of Genisis in the New Testiment.  
However,
          biblical passages do not meet the requirements for a 
scientific
          theory.  See 3.x for more information on scientific 
theories.

     A:   "IS NOT!" Creationists refuse to provide a theory of 
Creationism,
          because they do not have one.  Therefore it is damn hard 
to teach
          it in public school, yet they still demand that it should.

3.16 Q:   What are Star Goat and Dopefish?
     A:   These made-up gods are used as a defense against 'prove 
God doesn't
          exist' argments made by theists.

3.17 Q:   "Pink, invisible, flying hippo?" Excuse me?
     A:   Her name is Daisy, and she leaves invisible, smell-free 
turds on
          the keyboards of every fundy that posts in HOLYSMOKE.  
Now prove
          she doesn't!  When someone brings up the 
non-measurability of their
          favorite god (Jesus, Yahweh, Jehovah, Allah), others 
bring up Daisy
          and point out that the evidence she exists is identical 
to the
          evidence their god(s) exist.  See 3.16

3.18 Q:   What's an Athiest? (note spelling and case)
     A:   Christians use this word to represent people without 
morals;
          heathens without ethics; lawyers; baby-eaters; perverts; 
gays;
          Democrats.

.18.1Q:  What's an atheist?
     A:   From Usenet's alt.atheist FAQ:

          Atheism is characterized by an absence of belief in the 
existence
          of God. Some atheists go further, and believe that God 
does not
          exist.  The former is often referred to as the "weak 
atheist"
          position, and the latter as "strong atheism".

          It is important to note the difference between these two 
positions.
          "Weak  atheism" is simple scepticism; disbelief in the 
existence of
          God.  "Strong atheism" is a positive belief that God does 
not
          exist.  Please do not fall into the trap of assuming that 
all
          atheists are "strong atheists".

          Some atheists believe in the non-existence of all Gods; 
others
          limit their atheism to specific Gods, such as the 
Christian God,
          rather than making flat-out denials.

          "But isn't disbelieving in God the same thing as 
believing he
          doesn't exist?"

          Definitely not.  Disbelief in a proposition means that 
one does not
          believe it to be true.  Not believing that something is 
true is not
          equivalent to believing that it is false; one may simply 
have no
          idea whether it is true or not.

.18.2Q:   What is an "Agnostic?"
     A:   One who doesn't know, or give a shit, if God exist or not.

3.19 Q:   What is HOLY_BIBLE?
     A:   This echo is run by Steve Winter (no S), who has 
professed it to be
          THE ONLY =REAL= Christian echo on Fidonet, disregarding 
the dozen
          or so other Christian echoes, which aren't really, but 
just clever
          simulations by Satan into fooling people into believing 
that the
          echoes are Christian.

3.20 Q:   What is a Sheneism?
     A:   We often get Christians on the echo who claim they will 
shortly, in
          a few days, provide proof of their god's existence, or 
proof of a
          global flood, or proof that Earth is flat, or proof that 
evolution
          didn't and isn't occurring-- just to vanish at the 
appointed time,
          later showing up claiming a "hard disk crash" ate their 
proof (I
          hate it when that happens!).  The first time someone made 
this
          claim, he blamed it on Satan.  The next person this 
happened to
          blamed it on his god, Jesus-- so they got us coming and 
going, eh?

3.21 Q:   Why is evolution constantly a topic in HOLYSMOKE?
     A:   Creationists refuse to go to the EVOLUTION echo, because 
there are
          several more well-informed scientists there than in 
HOLYSMOKE.  As
          yet, no Creationist has failed to be properly corrected 
of their
          errors in HOLYSMOKE.  There are several highly 
knowledgeable people
          in HOLYSMOKE who can and do refute Creationists claims.

          EVOLUTION is also less-widly carried in the bible-belt than
          HOLYSMOKE is.

3.22 Q:   Are there any Satanists here?
     A:   No.  The best estimate of the number of Satanists in the 
USA is
          from 4,000 to 5,000 individuals ("Satan Wants You," by 
Arthur
          Lyons), so the odds of one showing up is rather slim.

3.23 Q:   Why don't you pick on Satanists like you pick on 
Christians and
          Muslims?
     A:   For a couple of reasons.  First off, we only "pick on" 
someone who
          makes irrational and absurd claims while expecting us to 
believe
          them--we've yet to have a Satanist come along and do so.  
Second,
          and more importantly, it is Christians who are subverting 
our
          secular nation through political means, not Satanists 
(how many
          Satanists sue the State so they may lead students in 
prayer?).

3.24 Q:   Why do you hate God / Jesus?
     A:   Have you stopped beating your spouse?  Do not make the 
mistake of
          believing that attacks on stupidity is equal to an attack 
on a god
          just because the person making the silly claim asserts he's
          speaking for his god.  In the three years I've read 
HOLYSMOKE I
          have yet to see a single person hate God or Jesus-- just 
those who
          claim to be these gods followers.  Many Christians commit 
crimes in
          the name of their gods-- we don't blame their gods: we 
blame the
          criminals.

3.25 Q:   What's this GOD$LOVE.GIF?
     A:   A child preparing to feed a bird.  If you have an 
Internet address,
          ask Martin Goldberg to send you a copy.

3.26 Q:   NOODLES???
     A:   I know another preacher who, along with his church, 
prayed that the
          LORD would help a pot of noodles last through a social 
dinner, not
          only did they last, not only did several take home a 
container full
          of noodles, but the containers always stayed full. 
Finally, they
          had to throw them out, after thanking the LORD of course. 
I have
          seen and heard of peoples lives changed dramatically for 
the
          better, in ways that could only be called a miracle.  The 
LORD
          russles the leaves if you are willing listen." [Jerry 
Randall]

3.27 Q:   What are the requirements for a someting to be a theory?  
Is
          Creationism a theory?
     A:   I realize that you appear to have almost no scientific 
education at
          all but I am posting this and the next message in the 
hope that you
          may gain an understanding of what a scientific theory is. 
All of
          these are used in an attempt to explain a fact. The 
theory of
          evolution is used, according to these criteria, to 
describe the
          fact of evolution. The theory of gravity uses these 
criteria to
          describe the fact of gravity. When Einstein proposed a 
new theory
          to explain gravity apples did not hang in mid-air while 
waiting to
          see who was right, Einstein or Newton. The improvement or
          alteration of the theory did not have any effect on the 
fact of
          gravity.  So it is with the fact of evolution. Please 
read on and
          discover what a theory is...

          A survey of the literature on the history, philosophy and 
sociology
          of science reveals that there are at least four fundamental
          categories of criteria by which theories are judged:

               (1)  logical criteria
               (2)  empirical criteria
               (3)  sociological criteria
               (4)  historical criteria.

          There are four primary logical criteria for a theory. It 
must be:

               (1.a)     a simple, unifying idea that postulates 
nothing
                         unnecessary ("Occam's Razor" [see section 
4 -ch])
               (1.b) logically consistent internally
               (1.c)     logically falsifiable (i.e., cases must 
exist in which
                         the theory could be imagined to be invalid)
               (1.d)     clearly limited by explicit stated 
boundary conditions
                         so that it is clear whether or not any 
particular data
                         are or are not relevant to the 
verification or
                         falsification of the theory.

          The need for these four criteria should be obvious upon 
reflection.
          An idea that is too complex or deals with observations 
piecemeal
          can have no practical explanatory value for a scientist. 
Theories
          must make clear patterns of things and relationships 
between
          things. These patterns and relationships must be 
internally logical
          and consistent since these are required attributes of all 
sound
          explanations. The explanation must be falsifiable, at least
          logically if not by actual experiment, or else 
tautologies or other
          logically sterile constructions might be admissible as 
theories.
          Finally, a theory must be limited by boundary conditions 
or else
          there will be criteria for determining whether or not any
          particular observation or experiments should or should 
not be
          explainable by the theory.  In fact, if a theory is totally
          unbounded, then it is not possible to imagine any 
observation that
          is irrelevant to verifying the theory.  Thus, an 
unbounded theory
          would not be falsifiable.  And, if a theory cannot be 
falsified, it
          cannot be self-corrected.  Yet self-correctability is 
precisely the
          characteristic that gives scientific theories their 
epistemological
          power:  a theory that is incorrect or incomplete can, by 
attempts
          to falsify it, reveal its faults or limitations and so be 
corrected
          or extended.

          Three empirical criteria are of primary importance as 
well. A
          theory must:
               (2.a)     be empirically testable itself or lead to 
predictions
                         or retrodictions that are testable
               (2.b)     actually make verified predictions and/or 
retrodictions
               (2.c)     concern reproducible results
               (2.d)     provide criteria for the interpretation of 
data as
                         facts, artifacts, anomalies, or as 
irrelevant.

          The basic point is that not all data are valid for 
testing any
          particular theory. Some data may be interpreted as 
factual (that
          is, they fall within the boundary conditions specified by 
the
          theory and verify its predictions   or retrodictions); 
some may be
          artifactual (that is, the result of secondary or accidental
          influences lying outside the boundaries set for the 
validity of the
          theory); some are anomalous (that is, demonstrably valid 
within the
          bounds of the theory, but also at odds with predictions or
          retrodictions made by the theory); some are 
irreproducible and so,
          invalid; and some are irrelevant since they address the 
theory not
          at all.

          Once again, the necessity of these criteria should be 
relatively
          self-evident. It is possible to imagine theories that are 
logically
          falsifiable but experimentally untestable (as when the 
technology
          does not exist to convert the logical test into an 
empirical test).
          Such a theory cannot be either verified or falsified and 
so is
          useless in practice to an experimental scientist. One 
can, at best,
          only leave such empirically untestable ideas in the 
scientific
          purgatory of doubt. A theory must also limit what may 
possibly be
          observed in the universe.  Otherwise, one would not know 
what to
          look for, where, how to look for it, under what 
conditions, or know
          whether what one saw was relevant or irrelevant to the 
theory. If
          everything is possible under an explanation, then no 
tests for it
          can exist.

          A theory must also make verified predictions and 
retrodictions to
          validate itself. It is possible otherwise to imagine 
theories that
          make predictions and retrodictions all of which are 
falsified. A
          theory whose predictions and retrodictions are falsified, 
either by
          the prior existence of relevant data or the subsequent 
discovery of
          relevant data, cannot be considered a valid theory. It is 
in need
          of correction or extension.  And, of course, a theory 
based upon
          irreproducible results is, in effect, invalidated by the 
very fact
          that the results cannot be reproduced - for either the 
boundary
          conditions governing the collection of the data have not 
been
          properly set, or the original data may have been due 
simply to
          coincidence rather than any mechanism proposed by the 
theory.

          Sociological criteria also exist for determining the 
validity of a
          theory.  A theory must:

               (3.a)     resolve recognized problems, paradoxes, 
and/or
                         anomalies irresolvable on the basis of 
preexisting
                         scientific theories
               (3.b)     pose a new set of scientific problems upon 
which
                         scientists may work
               (3.c)     posit a "paradigm" or problem-solving 
model by which
                         these new problems may be expected to be 
resolved
               (3.d)     provide definitions of concepts or 
operations
                         beneficial to the problem-solving 
abilities of other
                         scientists.

          Once again, the need for these criteria is manifest.  An 
idea that
          does not resolve any recognized scientific problems 
cannot be
          called a scientific theory. It can have no effect upon 
the research
          activity of scientists.  Similarly, an explanation that 
does not
          pose new problems does not allow scientists to learn 
anything they
          were unable to learn before.  A theory therefore has no
          sociological value unless it provides a model for new or 
more
          efficient sorts of scientific activity. Thus, a theory 
must be
          stated in terms that are operationally useful to the 
community of
          scientists who might use the theory.  If the definitions or
          concepts upon which the theory is based are not 
operationally
          useful, then the explanation says nothing experimentally 
verifiable
          about nature. Such an explanation cannot, therefore, be 
scientific.

          Finally, there is a fourth set of theory criteria as well:
          historical ones.  A theory must:

               (4.a)     meet or surpass all of the criteria set by 
its
                         predecessors or demonstrate that any 
abandoned criteria
                         are artifactual
               (4.b)     be able to accrue the epistemological 
status acquired
                         by previous theories through their history 
of testing
                         or, put another way, be able to explain 
all of the data
                         gathered under previous relevant theories 
in terms
                         either of fact or artifact (no anomalies 
allowed)
               (4.c)     be consistent with all preexisting 
ancillary theories
                         that already have established scientific 
validity.

          These criteria are necessary to ensure that theories are
          correctable.  Correctability, in turn, ensures the 
increase in
          explanatory power of scientific theories with time, and 
promotes
          the consistency and integration of all scientific 
explanations,
          without such criteria, scientists would be free to pick 
and choose
          data that favor their explanations while ignoring 
previously
          recorded evidence and theories that falsify their own 
ideas.  The
          historical criteria make such unscientific procedures 
nearly
          impossible. The historical records of each science stand 
as a
          monument to the series of tests any new theory must pass 
to prove
          its mettle against the accumulated knowledge of nature. 
The longer
          a science has existed, the greater the accumulated 
knowledge
          concerning any particular aspect of nature.  
Consequently, the more
          difficult it becomes to reformulate all of that knowledge 
into a
          new and consistent framework.  [Robert Root-Bernstein]

          In short ...[-ch] if you have a better theory of how the 
diversity
          of species came to be as they are on this planet you must 
fit it
          into the above (and preceding) framework. While your 
theory is
          being tested and evaluated the diversity of species will 
remain as
          they now are. The facts that are manifest under the 
banner of
          evolution will not go away while your theory is being 
developed. If
          you can come up with a theory to explain the fact of 
evolution that
          fits these criteria I will accept it... but _only_ if you 
can do so
          and not before. [Simon Ewins]
3.28 Q:   Is there a biological basis for fundamentalism?  I mean,
people
          can't be this stupid without extra help.
     A:   You (and others here) may find interesting the article by 
Rebecca
          Lee, "The Jerusalem Syndrome" in The Atlantic Monthly 
(May 1995, pp
          24-38).  There are LOTS of Messiahs around, and 
protestants are
          particularly susceptible. All it takes for many is to visit
          Jerusalem and experience a religious overload. The 
authorities find
          ice middle-class Americans  wandering the surrounding 
hillsides,
          dressed in bedsheets. David Koresh was one such who 
recognized his
          own divinity in 1983 and did not get treatment for it.

          The treatment is a drug Haloperidol, "a dopamine 
antagonist; some
          psychiatrists hypothesize that too much dopamine can 
cause the mind
          to be overactive and project to excess, to translate what 
_is_ into
          what _might be_--an action of faith. An overabundance of 
dopamine,
          then may blur the differences on perceives between 
oneself and God.
          Haloperidol blocks some of the dopamine receptors, closes 
the
          gates, prevents interplay in the mind between what is 
seen and what
          is unseen, discourages the leap of faith. Physicians keep 
the
          dosage very low, however, fearing that too much of the 
drug might
          wipe out the religious imagination entirely."  (p 38, col 
a)

          Perhaps we atheists are simply hypodopaminic to the 
hyper-of the
          fundies. Better things for better living through 
chemistry . . . .

          [Now all you need to do is slip a large amount of 
Haloperidol into
          Washington D.C's water supply and you'll have no more 
fundies in
          office...]

3.29 Q:   What is the Necronomicon?
     A:   [...] The Necronomicon began life as an interesting and 
eldritch
          bit of frippery that H. P. Lovecraft invented to liven up 
some of
          his stories and add the element of Things Which Man Was 
Not Meant
          To Know to them.  Abdul Alhazred is likewise a fiction.

          The only book bearing the name that I have seen in print 
was
          written in the late '70s and is a mish-mash of 
pseudo-Sumerian
          babble. It is not   the "real" Necronomicon, if there 
ever could be
          such a thing. It is merely a stupidly written and very 
funny bit of
          junk whose main claim to fame is the use of the title.

          Most people with any sense whatsoever realize that the 
Necronomicon
          is indeed a fraud and anyone purporting to have anything 
like a
          real copy of it is off his gyros. [Preston Simpson]

3.30 Q:   How old is the earth?  How do we know?
     A:   The most direct means for calculating the earth's age is 
a Pb/Pb
          isochron age, derived from samples of the earth and  
meteorites.
          This involves measurement of three isotopes of lead 
(Pb-206,
          Pb-207, and either Pb-208 or Pb-204).  A plot is 
constructed of
          Pb-206/Pb-204 versus Pb-208/Pb-204.

          If the solar system formed form a common pool of matter, 
which was
          uniformly distributed in terms of Pb isotope ratios, then 
the
          initial plots for all objects from that pool of matter 
would fall
          on a single point.  However, amounts of Pb-206 and Pb-207 
will
          change in some samples, as these isotopes are decay 
end-products of
          U (U-238 decays to Pb-206, and U-235 decays to Pb-207).

          If the source of the solar system was also uniformly 
distributed
          with respect to U isotope ratios, then this change will 
cause the
          data points to move away from each other, but they will 
always fall
          on a single line.  And from the slope of the line we can 
derive the
          amount of time which has passed since the pool of matter 
became
          separated into individual objects.

          A creationist would object to all of the "assumptions" 
listed
          above.  However, the test for these assumptions is the 
plot of the
          data itself.  The actual underlying assumption is that, 
if those
          requirements have not been met, there is no reason for 
the data to
          plot on a line.

          The resulting plot for five meteorites that contained 
uranium, a
          single data point for all meteorites that do not, and one 
for
          modern ocean sediments. It looks like this:

          Y-axis: ratio of Pb[207]/Pb[204]
          X-axis: ratio of Pb[206]/Pb[204].

       
Ŀ
                                                                   
  7 
                                                                   
    
    30                                                             
    
                                                                   
    
                                                   6               
    
                                                                   
    
                                                                   
    
    20                                                             
    
                                                                   
    
                        4    5                                     
    
                       3                                           
    
                 2                                                 
    
    10       1                                                     
    
                                                                   
    
                                                                   
    
       

       10            20            30            40            50

          Data points: (1) Iron Meteorites; (2) Beardsley; (3) Modern
          sediments and young galenas; (4) Saratov; (5) Elenovka; (6)
          Richardton; (7) Nuevo Laredo.  I can't really do it 
justice in
          ASCII, I recommend interested parties to get the original.
          (Dalrymple, 1986, Figure 12)

          The slope of the line in the above chart gives an age of 
4.55 
          0.07 billion years.

          Most of the other measurements for the age of the earth 
rest upon
          calculating an age for the solar system by dating objects 
which are
          less geologically active (such as meteorites).  Below is 
a table of
          radiometric ages derived from groups of meteorites:

                       

                                  Number
          Type                    Dated   Method          Age 
(x10^9 yr)
                       

          Chondrites                13    Sm-Nd           4.21  +/- 
0.76
          Carbonaceous chondrites    4    Rb-Sr           4.37  +/- 
0.34
          Chondrites (undist. H)    38    Rb-Sr           4.50  +/- 
0.02
          Chondrites (all)          50    Rb-Sr           4.43  +/- 
0.04
          H Chondrites (undist.)    17    Rb-Sr           4.52  +/- 
0.04
          H Chondrites              15    Rb-Sr           4.59  +/- 
0.06
          L Chondrites (rel. und.)   6    Rb-Sr           4.44  +/- 
0.12
          L Chondrites               5    Rb-Sr           4.38  +/- 
0.12
          LL Chondrites (undist.)   13    Rb-Sr           4.49  +/- 
0.02
          LL Chondrites             10    Rb-Sr           4.46  +/- 
0.06
          E Chondrites (undist.)     8    Rb-Sr           4.51  +/- 
0.04
          E Chondrites               8    Rb-Sr           4.44  +/- 
0.13
          Eucrites (polymict)       23    Rb-Sr           4.53  +/- 
0.19
          Eucrites                  11    Rb-Sr           4.44  +/- 
0.30
          Eucrites                  13    Lu-Hf           4.57  +/- 
0.19
          Diogenites                 5    Rb-Sr           4.45  +/- 
0.18
          Iron (+ St. Severin)       8    Re-Os           4.57  +/- 
0.21
                       

          After Dalrymple, 1991, p.  291; duplicate studies on 
identical
          meteorite types omitted.)

          As shown in the table, there is excellent agreement on 
about 4.5
          billion years, between hundreds of different meteorites 
and by
          several different dating methods.

          Further, studies on individual meteorites generally give 
concordant
          ages by multiple radiometric means.  For example:

                       

          Meteorite               Dated   Method          Age 
(x10^9 yr)
                       

          Guarena                 w-rock  Ar-Ar           4.44  +/- 
0.06
                                  13 sam  Rb-Sr           4.46  +/- 
0.08
                       

          Olivenza                18 sam  Rb-Sr           4.53  +/- 
0.16
                                  w-rock  Ar-Ar           4.49  +/- 
0.06
                       

          Saint Severin           4 sam   Sm-Nd           4.55  +/- 
0.33
                                  10 sam  Rb-Sr           4.51  +/- 
0.15
                                  w-rock  Ar-Ar           4.43  +/- 
0.04
                       

          Juvinas                 5 sam   Sm-Nd           4.56  +/- 
0.08
                                  5 sam   Rb-Sr           4.50  +/- 
0.07
             

          Y-75011                 9 sam   Rb-Sr           4.50  +/- 
0.05
                                  7 sam   Sm-Nd           4.52  +/- 
0.16
                       


          (After Dalrymple, 1991, p. 286; meteorites dated by only 
a single
          means omitted, duplicated methods omitted.)

          Also note that the meteorite ages (both when dated mainly 
by Rb-Sr
          dating in groups, and by multiple means individually) are 
in exact
          agreement with the solar system "model lead age" produced 
earlier.
          [Chris Stassen]

3.31 Q:   What is evolution?
     A:   "Evolution", to biologists, refers to that change in gene
          frequencies of populations over the generations in time 
that
          produces new species. Darwin called it "descent with 
modification":
          a painfully slow process, usually operating over hundreds 
of
          thousands, if not millions, of years and generations. 
Geological
          and paleontological additions to this definition are 
noted in the
          fact that over the span of geological time, organisms have
          progressed from the simple to the more complex.

          There are four commonly confused meanings of evolution, 
which
          should be kept quite separate and distinct: (1.) the 
general
          process of populational and specific (i.e., giving rise 
to new
          species) change, which is considered a well established 
scientific
          fact, (2.) inevitable "progress" from lower to higher 
life forms
          [though now largely discredited], (3.) the particular 
history of
          the "Tree of Life" and the origins of various groups, or
          phylogenies, which are interpreted from the fossil record 
and
          biochemical studies; and (4.) the mechanism of evolution, 
which
          Darwin and Wallace proposed as "natural selection", but is
          currently being investigated and modified by scientific 
research.
          Punctuated equilibria is an example of the latter.

          Here following are some of the major arguments and 
objections that
          Creationists never tire of bringing up - and some answers 
from the
          perspective of mainstream science:

          1. FACT, OR THEORY?
               Evolution became established as fact because it 
unified
               thousands of disparate observations by comparative
               anatomists, botanists, field naturalists, geologists,
               paleontologists, geneticists and biochemists.  
Without the
               unifying concept of a changing world in process over 
eons of
               time, modern science could not and would not exist.  
That
               species are related through common ancestry is 
supported by
               scores of interlocking research fields, each which 
supports
               the rest. Evolution is as well established fact as
               gravitation. As noted by S.J. Gould, apples are not 
going to
               stop falling in midair while scientists debate whether
               Newton's law of gravitation has been superseded by
               Einstein's theories. And species keep on changing 
over time,
               while we continue to search for the why and how of 
evolution.

               If one insists that evolution is but one 
interpretation of
               nature, what is the alternative? That the thousands of
               dinosaurs and species that preceded them and 
postdated them
               were _not_ related to each other, appeared full 
blown and had
               no common connections? Such a model, call it 
"religious" or
               call it "creation science", cannot lead to fruitful 
inquiry.
               It is rather an answer that stops all further ques
questions.

          2. "GENERAL" EVOLUTION VS. SPECIATION:
               While some critics concede that new species 
(_Drosophilia
               sp._, for example) have been produced in the lab, 
they claim
               general evolution has never been experimentally 
demonstrated.
               By this, they mean breeding a succession of 
progressively
               "higher" or more complex species. But, there is no 
such
               theory of general evolution (i.e., a strawman), the 
old
               Victorian notions of "inevitable progress" as 
opposed to the
               simple to more complex progress noted in the fossil 
record,
               biologically are outmoded and well discarded.

          3. TRANSITIONAL FORMS:
               The time worn and oft-repeated claim that there are no
               transitional forms is demonstrably false.  The Great 
Karroo
               region of South Africa is a vast graveyard of 
mammal-like
               reptiles, a whole array of species whose anatomy was
               intermediate between reptiles and mammals. There is 
the
               famous _Archeopteryx_, with its feathers, teeth, 
claws and
               dinosauroid skeleton, a clear transition between 
reptiles and
               birds. And the African homonid fossils represent 
creatures
               with human-like dental patterns, small brains, arms 
longer
               than humans but shorter than modern apes, with 
pelves, feet
               and legs for upright walking.  Transitional fossils 
are
               fairly rare because, going by current theory, most 
species
               remain stable for long periods.  When change does 
occur, it
               happens in a relatively rapid (in geological terms) 
timespan
               and oftimes occurred in small, isolated populations. 
The
               fossil record has been compared to freezing a 
multileveled
               parking garage in time. Most cars would be found on 
the
               various floors, with very few on the ramps. The 
amount of
               time each car spends on the ramp is short when 
compared to
               the length of time it remains parked, yet each must 
have
               traveled the ramp.  Another evidence of transition 
is found
               in biogeographic  distribution of living species. On 
Pacific
               island chains, biologists have tracked populational 
species
               across thousands of miles, discovering intermediate 
forms
               from one end of the island chain to the other.  
Among living
               species, there is a series of intermediate species 
between
               lizards and snakes, sharks and skates, and thrushes 
and
               wrens.

          4. EVIDENCE AND "PROOF":
               There is a very common misconception the Darwin 
thought he
               had "proved" by logic that species evolved.  He was, 
in fact,
               a much subtler thinker and philosopher of science.  
"The
               change of species cannot be directly proved, and...the
               doctrine must sink or swim according as it groups and
               explains [disparate] phenomena.  It is unequivocally 
curious
               how few people judge it this way, which is the 
correct way.

          5. "HOLES" AND QUESTIONS:
               That there are "holes" and unanswered questions in
               evolutionary theory (just as there are in quantum 
theory) is
               incontrovertible, which is normal for healthy 
science. As
               noted by Huxley: "If lost in a dark forest, would 
you reject
               a dim, flickering lantern on the grounds the light 
it gave
               was imperfect?"  "I think not", mused Huxley, "I 
think not."

          6. TAUTOLOGY OF "SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST":
               This hoary old chestnut that evolutionary theory is 
built on
               the tautological pretense that "the survivors 
survive" was
               laid to rest long ago. Critics argue that "only the 
fittest
               survive" is an untestable proposition without a 
uniform
               definition of fitness and, therefore, meaningless as 
an
               explanation.

               But whatever the state of those archaic 
"catch-phrases", such
               as "survival of the fittest" and "man came from 
monkeys", the
               heart of Darwin's theory remains sound: 
overproduction of
               offspring in nature, genetic variability and a sorting
               process, which results in both long-term stability and
               episodic divergence of populations. Increasingly, new
               research is focusing on gaining a deeper 
understanding of
               these mechanisms of genetic variation and differential
               sorting as they occur on various levels within 
populations of
               the same organism.

          7. "JUST HISTORY, NOT SCIENCE":
               Some assume that research and inquiry into biology and
               zoology must lead to the formulation of fixed laws 
like those
               of chemistry or physics. Dissecting the anatomical 
structures
               of extinct creatures, working out their distribution 
in
               evolutionary hyperspace and reconstructing the 
Earth's past
               indeed meets and exceeds all the criteria of 
science; as
               evidenced by paleontology, geology and 
biostratigraphy.

          The kind of scientific illiteracy that rejects evolution 
as a
          "humanist religious belief" can result in serious errors in
          understanding and even the loss of human life. For 
example, Dr.
          L.L. Bailey of the infamous Loma Linda University 
(Seventh-Day
          Adventist) "school" of medicine tried to save the life 
"Baby Fae",
          an infant born with a severely malformed heart. He 
surgically
          implanted a baboon's heart, but the organ was quickly 
rejected and
          the child died.

          He was asked, after the debacle, why he didn't instead 
use a
          chimpanzee's heart instead, which would have offered a
much better
          chance of success because of the chimp's closer 
evolutionary
          proximity and genetic fit. Dr. Bailey replied that he 
"didn't
          believe in evolution," and in any case, "couldn't see 
what it had
          to do with the practice of medicine."

          Add this to the willful distortions, out-of-context 
quoting, and
          bald-faced lies of those who populate El Cajon's 
oxymoronically
          monikered "Institute of Creation Research"; who spend 
their time at
          their self-described "God directed ministry" trying to 
inculcate
          their own particularly skewed, and narrowly sectarian, 
version of
          Biblically mandated (or so they say) morality, into the 
science
          curricula of public schools across the nation; and we can 
see how
          the unfortunate bastard child of hard-shell religion and 
fanatical
          pseudoscience is indeed homeless.

          Mainstream science has no place for "Creation Science", 
other than
          a prime example of a once popular belief that has been 
shown to be
          an intriguing mistake. With its anti-scientific 
documents, specious
          reasonings, supernormal occurrences and non-mechanistic 
processes,
          it belongs in that dustbin of outdated and useless 
speculations
          like it brethren "Flat-Earthism" and  Geocentrism.

          Mainstream religion also has no room at the inn for the
          hyperliteral interpretation, and concomitant internal
          contradictions and paradoxes, of scripture that the ICR 
crowd try
          to pawn off as "religiously-ordained".

          Certainly, "Creation Science" is nothing more that an 
authoritarian
          philosophy, a sham and a manifestation of supernaturalism 
trying,
          in vain, to somewhere find a home.

          It is not at all surprising that virtually everyone is 
hanging out
          "No Vacancy" signs whenever they ooze into town.  [Marty 
Leipzig]

4: Debate 
Terms

4.1  ARGUMENTUM AD IGNORANTIUM

Argumentum ad ignorantium means "argument from ignorance".  This 
fallacy
occurs whenever it is argued that something must be true simply 
because it has
not been proved false.  Or, equivalently, when it is argued that 
something must
be false because it has not been proved true.  (Note that this is 
not the same
as assuming that something is false until it has been proved true, 
a basic
scientific principle.)

Examples:

"Of course the Bible is true.  Nobody can prove otherwise."

"Of course telepathy and other psychic phenomena do not exist.  
Nobody has
shown any proof that they are real."

Note that this fallacy does not apply in a court of law, where one 
is generally
assumed innocent until proven guilty.

Also, in scientific investigation if it is known that an event 
would produce
certain evidence of its having occurred, the absence of such 
evidence can
validly be used to infer that the event did not occur.  For example:

"A flood as described in the Bible would require an enormous volume 
of water to
be present on the earth.  The earth does not have a tenth as much 
water, even
if we count that which is frozen into ice at the poles.  Therefore 
no such
flood occurred."

4.2  ARGUMENTUM AD NUMERAM

This fallacy is closely related to the argumentum ad populum.  It 
consists of
asserting that the more people who support or believe a 
proposition, the more
likely it is that that proposition is correct.

Examples:

"The Bible must be true. Millions of people know that it is.  Are 
you trying to
tell them that they are all mistaken fools?"

"Eat shit.  Ten million flys can't be wrong."

4.3  SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF

The burden of proof is always on the person making an assertion or 
proposition.
Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of argumentum ad 
ignorantium, is
the fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the person who denies 
or
questions the assertion being made.  The source of the fallacy is the
assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.

Short form:  Don't attempt to prove a negatives.  Unless you're an 
idiot.

4.4  ACCENTUS

Description: A Fallacy of Ambiguity, where the ambiguity arises 
from the
emphasis (accent) placed on a word or phrase.

4.5  AFFIRMATION OF THE CONSEQUENT

Description: An argument from the truth of a hypothetical 
statement, and the
truth of the consequent to the truth of the antecedent. In the 
syllogism below,
P is the antecedent and Q is the consequent:

P implies Q
Q is true                  <-- Affirming the consequent
______________
Therefore:  P is true

Example: The Bible implies god, therefore, god is true.

4.6  AMBIGUITY

Description: An argument in the course of which at least one term 
is used in
different senses.  Also known as equivocation. There are several 
types of
"fallacies of ambiguity," including REIFICATION, EQUIVOCATION, 
AMPHIBOLY [4.7],
COMPOSITION, DIVISION, and ACCENTUS [4.4].

4.7  AMPHIBOLY

Description: A type of Fallacy of Ambiguity where the ambiguity 
involved is of
an "amphibolous"  (equivocal, uncertain) nature.  Amphiboly is a 
syntactic
error.  The fallacy is caused by faulty sentence structure, and can 
result in a
meaning not intended by the author. "The department store now has 
pants for men
with 32 waists." (How many waists do you have?  I have only one!)

4.8  ARGUMENTUM AD ANTIQUITAM

Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is right or good 
simply
because it is old; that is, because "that's the way it's always 
been."

Example: The Bible is 2000 years old!  It must be true!

4.9  ARGUMENTUM AD BACULUM

Description: An argument that resorts to the threat of force to 
cause the
acceptance of the conclusion. Ad baculum arguments also include 
threats of fear
to cause acceptance.

Example: You'll go to hell if you don't follow my loving god.

4.10 ARGUMENTUM AD CRUMENAM

Description: Fallacy of believing that money is a criterion of 
correctness;
that those with more money are more likely to be right.

4.11 ARGUMENTUM AD HOMINEM (AKA FLAME)

Description: An argument that attempts to disprove the truth of 
what is
asserted by attacking the speaker rather than the speaker's 
argument.  Another
way of putting it:  Fallacy where you attack someone's character 
instead of
dealing with salient issues. There are two basic types of ad 
hominem arguments:
(1) abusive, and (2) circumstantial.

4.12 ARGUMENTUM AD LAZARUM

Description: A fallacy of assuming that because someone is poor he 
or she is
sounder or more virtuous than one who is wealthier.  This fallacy 
is the
opposite of the informal fallacy "argumentum ad crumenam."

4.13 ARGUMENTUM AD MISERICORDIAM

Description: An argument that appeals to pity for the sake of 
getting a
conclusion accepted.

4.14 ARGUMENTUM AD NAUSEUM

Description: The incorrect belief that an assertion is more likely 
to be true
the more often it is heard.  An "argumentum ad nauseum" is one that 
employs
constant repitition in asserting a truth.

Short form: an argument that is repeated so many times that you 
suffer nausea.

4.15 ARGUMENTUM AD NOVITAM

Description: A fallacy of asserting that something is more correct 
simply
because it is new or newer than something else.  Or that something 
is better
because it is newer.  This type of fallacy is the opposite of the 
"argumentum
ad antiquitam" fallacy.

4.16 ARGUMENTUM AD POPULUM

Description: An argument that appeals to the beliefs of the 
multitude (i.e.,
the "populace").  Another way of putting it:  Speaker deals with 
passions of
audience rather than with salient issues. This fallacy is also 
known as "Appeal
to Tradition" Ad populum arguments often occur in (1) propaganda, (2)
demagoguery, and (3) advertising.

4.17 ARGUMENTUM AD VERECUNDIAM

Description: An argument in which an authority is appealed to on 
matters
outside his/her field of authority.  "Ad verecundiam"  also refers 
to a fallacy
of simply resorting to appeals to authority.

4.18 BEGGING THE QUESTION (CIRCULAR REASONING)

Description: An argument that assumes as part of its premises the 
very
conclusion that is supposed to be true.  Another way of saying this 
is:
Fallacy of assuming at the onset of an argument the very point you 
are trying
to prove.  The fallacy is also sometimes referred to as "Circulus 
in Probando."
This Fallacy is also known by the Latin "PETITIO PRINCIPII".

Example:

The Bible is true because god said it was.  I know god is real 
becase the Bible
said so.


4.19 BIFURCATION

Description: Also referred to as the "black and white" fallacy, 
bifurcation is
the presentation of a situation or condition with only two 
alternatives,
whereas in fact other alternatives exist or can exist.

4.20 COMPOSITION

Description: An argument in which one assumes that a whole has a 
property
solely because its various parts have that property.  Composition 
is a type of
Fallacy of Ambiguity.

4.21 CONVERTING A CONDITIONAL

Description: If P then Q, therefore, if Q then P.

Example:

Hitler used evolution, therefore, everyone who follows evolution 
supports
Hitler.

4.22 CUM HOC ERGO PROPTER HOC

Description: A fallacy of correlation that links events because 
they occur
simultaneously; one asserts that because two events occur together 
they are
causally related, and leaves no room for other factors that may be 
the cause(s)
of the events.  This fallacy is similar to the "post hoc" fallacy.

4.23 DENIAL OF THE ANTECEDENT

Description: An argument in which one infers the falsity of the 
consequent from
the truth of a hypothetical proposition, and the falsity of its 
antecedent.

P implies Q
Not-P
____________
Therefore:  Not-Q

4.24 DIVISION

Description: An argument in which one assumes that various parts 
have a
property solely because the whole has that same property.  Division 
is a type
of Fallacy of Ambiguity.

4.25 EQUIVOCATION

Description: An argument in which an equivocal expression is used 
in one sense
in one premise and in a different sense in another premise, or in the
conclusion.  Equivocal means (1) of uncertain significance; not 
determined, and
(2) having different meanings equally possible.  Equivocation is a 
type of
Fallacy of Ambiguity. The opposite of equivocation is 
"unovocation," in which a
word always carries the same meaning through a given context.

4.26 FALLACY OF INTERROGATION

Description: The question asked has a presuppostion which the 
answerer may wish
to deny,  but which he/she would be accepting if he/she gave 
anything that
would count as an answer.  Any answer to the question "Why does 
such-and-such
happen?" presupposes that such-and-such does indeed happen.

4.28 FALSE ANALOGY

Description: An analogy is a partial similarity between the like 
features of
two things or events on which a comparison can be made.  A false 
analogy
involves comparing two things that are NOT similar.  Note that the 
two things
may be similar in superficial ways, but not with respect to what is 
being
argued.

4.29 SECUNDUM QUID (HASTY GENERALIZATION)

Description: An argument in which a proposition is used as a 
premise without
attention given to some obvious condition that would affect the 
proposition's
application.  This fallacy is also known as the "hasty 
generalization."  It is
a fallacy that takes evidence from several, possibly 
unrepresentative, cases to
a general rule; generalizing from few to many.  Note the relation to
statistics:  Much of statistics  concerns whether or not a sample is
representative of a larger population. The larger the sample size, 
the better
the representativeness.  Note also that the opposite of a hasty 
generalization
is a sweeping generalization.

4.30 IGNORATIO ELENCHI

Description: An argument that is supposed to prove one proposition 
but succeeds
only in proving a different one.  Ignoratio elenchi stands for 
"pure and simple
irrelevance."

4.31 ILLICIT PROCESS

Description: A syllogistic argument in which a term is distributed 
in the
conclusion, but not in the premises.  One of the rules for a valid 
categorical
syllogism is that if either term is distributed in the conclusion, 
then it must
be distributed in the premises.  There are two types of Illicit 
Process:
Illicit Process of the Major Term and Illicit Process of the Minor 
Term.

4.32 PLURIUM INTERROGATIONUM (MANY QUESTIONS)

Description: A demand for a simple answer to a complex question.

Example:

US schools are going down the drain because the school day is no 
longer started
with a prayer.

4.33 NON CAUSA PRO CAUSA

Description: An argument to reject a proposition because of the 
falsity of some
other proposition that seems to be a consequence of the first, but 
really is
not.

4.34 NON-SEQUITUR

Description: An argument in which the conclusion is not a necessary 
consequence
of the premises.  Another way of putting this is:  A conclusion 
drawn from
premises that provide no logical connection to it.

4.35 PETITIO PRINCIPII

Description: Same as "Begging the Question"   The argument assumes 
its
conclusion is true but DOES NOT SHOW it to be true.  Petitio 
principii has two
forms:

1.  P is true, because P is true.
2.  P is true, because A is true.   And A is true because B is 
true.  And B is
true because P is true.

Similar to circular reasoning.

4.36 POST HOC, ERGO PROPTER HOC

Description: An argument from a premise of the form "A preceded B" 
to a
conclusion of the form "A caused B."  Simply because one event 
precedes another
event in time does not mean that the first event is the cause of 
the second
event. This argument resembles a fallacy known as a Hasty 
Generalization.

4.37 QUATERNIO TERMINORUM

Description: An argument of the syllogistic form in which there 
occur four or
more terms.  In a standard categorical syllogism there are only 
three terms: a
subject, a predicate, and a middle term.

4.38 RED HERRING

Description: A fallacy when irrelevant material is introduced to 
the issue
being discussed, such that everyone's attention is diverted away 
from the
points being made, and toward a different conclusion.  It is not 
logically
valid to divert a chain of reasoning with extraneous points.

4.39 REIFICATION

Description: To reify something is to convert an abstract concept 
into a
concrete thing. Reification is a Fallacy of Ambiguity.  Reification 
is also
sometimes known as a fallacy of  "hypostatization".

4.40 SHIFTING THE BURDEN OF PROOF (AKA Fundi shuffle)

Description: The burden of proof is always on the person making the 
assertion
or proposition.  Shifting the burden of proof, a special case of 
"argumentum ad
ignorantium," is a fallacy of putting the burden of proof on the 
person who
denies or questions the assertion being made.  The source of the 
fallacy is the
assumption that something is true unless proven otherwise.

4.41 SPECIAL PLEADING (DOUBLE STANDARD)

Description: Special pleading is a logical fallacy wherein a double 
standard is
employed by the person making the assertion.  Special pleading 
typically
happens when one insists upon less strict treatment for the 
argument he/she is
making than he or she would make when evaluating someone else's 
arguments.

4.42 STRAW MAN

Description: It is a fallacy to misrepresent someone else's 
position for the
purposes of more easily attacking it, then to knock down that 
misrepresented
position, and then to conclude that the original position has been 
demolished.
It is a fallacy because it fails to deal with the actual arguments 
that one has
made.

Example:  Evolution says humans evolved from monkeys.

4.43 SWEEPING GENERALIZATION

Description: Also known by the Latin term "DICTO SIMPLICITER", a 
Sweeping
Generalization occurs when a general rule is applied to a 
particular situation
in which the features of that particular situation render the rule
inapplicable.  A sweeping generalization is the opposite of a hasty
generalization.

4.44 TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT (TU QUOQUE)

Description: Two wrongs never add up to a right; you cannot right a 
wrong by
applying yet another wrong.  Such a fallacy is a misplaced appeal to
consistency.  It is a fallacy because it makes no attempt to deal 
with the
subject under discussion.

4.45 UNDISTRIBUTED MIDDLE

Description: A syllogistic argument in which the middle term of a 
categorical
syllogism is not distributed in at least one of the premises.

4.46 ARGUMENTUM AD BOZM NON-CHRISTI

Description:  This is the falacy that a Christian cannot commit any 
crime or
ethicly irresponsible act.  See "not true christian." [3.13]

4.47 HECTOR'S LAW
Description: A fundi, given enough time, will debunk itself without 
outside
intervention.  However, the fundi is often too stupid to know that 
it has
debunked itself.  [Hector Plasmic never put this in words, so I did.]

5: Biblical Contradiction 
List

  [From Shelby Sherman, Kelsey Bjarnason, Marilyn Burge, Larry 
Sites and
  Simon Ewins]

  God creates animals and then man - Gen 1:25-26
  God creates man and then the animals - Gen 2:18-19
  
  Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12
  Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36
  
  Noah takes 7 pairs of each type of animal onto the ark
  - Gen 7:2-3
  Noah takes one pair of animal onto the ark - Gen 6:19
  
  Terah's lifespan.
  According to Gen 11:26, Terah was 70 when Abraham was
  born and Abraham was 75 when he left Haran. Therefore
  he lived 70 years (ie. his age when Abraham was born)
  plus 75 years (the age of Abraham when he left Haran -
  as stated in Gen 12:4). He did not live beyond this as
  Acts 7:4 states Terah was dead when Abraham left Haran.
  So 70 + 75 = 145 years in total.  However, Gen 11:32
  states he lived 205 years.
  
  God promises Abraham the land of Canaan to live in -
  Gen 17:8
  God did not allow Abraham to live in the promised land
   - Acts 7:5, Heb 11:8,9,13
  
  Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 70 - Gen 46:26-27,
  Ex 1:5
  Jacob's offspring in Egypt totalled 75 - Acts 7:14
  
  Jacob was buried in a cave in Machpelah's field that
  was bought from Ephron the Hittite - Gen 50:13
  Jacob was buried in a tomb at Shechem bought from the
  sons of Hamor - Acts 7:15-16
  
  The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40
  The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6
  
  God's plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9
  God's plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8
  
  The Hebrews' journeying - Mount Hor (where Aaron dies),
  Zalmonah, Punon - Num 33:37,38,41,42
  The Hebrews' journeying - Beeroth Benejaakan, Moserah
  (where Aaron dies), Gudgodah, Jotbathah - Deut 10:6,7
  
  God forbids killing - Ex 20:13
  God commands killing - Ex 32:27
  
  Solomon's reign.
  Acts 13:16-22 numbers the years from when the Hebrews
  left Egypt to David beginning his reign  as  40
  (Wilderness) + 450 (Judges) + 40 (Saul) = 530 years.
  According to 1 Chron 29:27, David reigned 40 years, so
  Solomon became king (when David died) 530 + 40 years
  (of David's reign) = 570 years. However, 1 Kings 6:1
  states Solomon's 4th year of rule (when he began the
  Temple building) was 480 years after the Hebrews left
  Egypt, ie. he began his rule 476 years after the Hebrews
  left. Therefore there is a contradiction of (570 - 476)
  94 years.
  
  Saul inquired of God, but God did not answer him - 1
  Sam 28:6
  Saul died because he did not seek guidance from God - 1

  Chron 10:13,14
  
  Jesse had eight children - 1 Sam 16:10-13
  Jesse had seven children - 1 Chron 2:13-15
  
  David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50
  Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19
  
  Joram his son, Ahaziah his son, Joash his son, Amaziah
  his son, Azariah his son, Jotham his son - 1 Chron
  3:11,12
  Joram the father of Uzziah, and Uzziah the father of
  Jotham - Matt 1:8,9
  
  Asa removes the high places - 2 Chron 14:2
  Asa did not remove the high places - 1 Kings 15:11-14
  
  Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Nacon - 2 Samuel
  6:6
  Uzzah dies at the threshing-floor of Chidon - 1 Chron
  13:9
  
  David takes 1700 horsemen - 2 Sam 8:4
  David takes 7000 horsemen - 1 Chron 18:4
  
  David destroys 700 chariots - 2 Sam 10:18
  David destroys 7000 chariots - 1 Chron 19:18
  
  Satan incites David to number the people - 1 Chron 21:1
  God incites David to number the people - 2 Sam 24:1
  
  Joab's numbering of the army. 1,100,00 soldiers in
  Israel; 470,000 soldiers in Judah - 1 Chron 21:5
  Joab's numbering of the army.  800,000 soldiers in
  Israel; 500,000 in Judah - 2 Sam 24:9
  

  ISA 45:7  I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace,
  and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

  PSA 145:9  The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are
  over all his works.

  JER 13:14  And I will dash them one against another, even the fa-
  thers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor
  spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
  

  EXO 15:3  The LORD is a man of war: the LORD is his name.
  ROM 15:33  Now the God of peace be with you all. Amen.
  

  MAT 1:16  And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was
  born Jesus, who is called Christ.

  LUK 3:23  And Jesus himself began to be  about  thirty  years  of
  age, being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was the son
  of Heli,
  

  MAT 28:1  In the end of the sabbath, as it began to  dawn  toward
  the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary
  to see the sepulchre.

  MAR 16:1  And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary
  the  mother  of  James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that
  they might come and anoint him.

  JOH 20:1  The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene  early,
  when  it  was  yet  dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the stone
  taken away from the sepulchre.
  

  JOH 10:30  I [Jesus] and my Father are one.

  JOH 14:28  Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come
  again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said,
  I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
  

  In 2 Kings 10:30, God said that at the Jezreel massacre, Jehu
  had done "according to all that was in my heart". God was so
  pleased that he promised Jehu's sons to the forth generation to
  rule Israel (15:12). Yet Hosea opens his book by judging Jeroboam,
  Jehu's 3rd generation by saying God will avenge the blood of
  Jezreel upon hin (Hosea 1:4-5).
  

  When God brought the people out of Egypt, he instructed Moses
  in proper sacrifice. (Ex 34:25-26; NU 6:13-17; 7:84-88; 15:1-14)
  Lev 7:38 confirms God commanded Moses in this. Yet Jeremiah,
  speaking for God says, "I gave your ancestors no commands about
  sacrifices when I brought them out of Egypt" (Je 7:21-23).
  

  How could the stars sing (Job 38:4-7) at the creation of the 
earth when
  Genesis 1 says stars were created after the earth?
  

  Taken by David             II Sam. 8.4:                 I Chr. 
18.4:
                             1,700 horsemen               1,000 
chariots
                             20,000 foot soldiers         7,000 
horsemen
                                                          20,000 
foot sldrs
  

  Ammonite mercenaries       II Sam. 10.6:                I Chr. 
19.7:
                             20,000 + 1,000 +             32,000 
chariots +
                             12,000 men                   army of 
king of
                                                          Maacah
  

  Slain by David             II Sam. 24.9:                I Chr. 
19.18:
                             700 charioteers +            7,000 
charioteers +
                             40,000 horsemen              + 40,000 
horsemen
  

  Census figures             II Sam. 24.9:                I Chr. 
21.5:
                             Israel 800,000               Israel 
1,100,000
                             Judah 500,000                Judah 
470,000
  

  Price of threshing         II Sam. 24.24:               I Chr. 
21.25:
  floor                      50 shekels                   600 shekels
  

  Stalls for chariot         I Kings 4.26:                II Chr. 
9.25:
  horses                     40,000                       4,000
  

  Capacity of the 'sea'      I Kings 7.26:                II Chr. 
4.5:
                             2,000 baths                  3,000 baths
  

  Is pi equal to 3.0000 as claimed in I Kings 7:23?
  Two different versions of the words of god in the ten commandments.
  Who carried Jesus' cross?
  Who was Jesus paternal grandfather?
  Is Jesus opposed to divorce or does he allow it?
  Did Judas hang himself or fall down and "burst asunder"?
  Acts 9:7 or 22:9?
  Matthew 27:46,50 or Luke 23:46 or John 19:30?
  Proverbs 4:7 or Ecclesiastes 1:18 or 1 Corinthians 1:19?
  Acts 2:30 or Matthew 1:18?
  Matthew 28:1 or Mark 16:1 or John 20:1?
  John 10:30 or John 14:28?
  Genesis 1:25,26 or Genesis 2:18,19?
  Genesis 7:2 or Genesis 7:8,9?
  Matthew 5:9 or Matthew 10:34?
  Matthew 5:39 or Luke 12:51?
  Matthew 26:52 or Luke 22:36?
  Luke 6:27 or John 2:15?
  


  a) I Kings 6:1 says that 480 years passed from the start of the 
Exodus to
     the start of construction on the first temple by Solomon.

  b) Gal 3:17 says that 430 years passed from the covenant with 
Abraham to the
     delivery of the Law to Moses.

  c) The chapters of Genesis after the flood account give the 
periods in years
     that passed between the births of various individuals from 
Noah to
     Abraham, giving a period of 390 years from the flood to the 
covenant with
     Abraham.

  Thus, according to the Bible, the Flood took place 1300 years 
before Solomon
  began construction of the first temple.

  Now ...

  a) The building of the first temple can be dated to 950 BCE by 
similar
     analysis in the other direction, placing the flood around 2250 
BCE.

  b) The Egyptians (among others) have written records dating well 
back before
     2250 B.C. (the Great Pyramid was built just prior to the 26th 
century
     BCE), 300 years before the Biblical date for the Flood.

  c) There is no mention in any Egyptian inscriptions of a global 
flood
     around 2250 BCE. (You think that maybe they just didn't notice 
it?)
  

  In Luke 22:41 we have Jesus and the disciples in the garden and 
Jesus moves
  away from them to pray. We then get some details about the 
praying and how
  he sweated blood in his 'agony' from v42 to v44. In v45 Jesus 
returns to the
  disciples and finds that they are all sleeping.

  My question is; if they were all sleeping how did any of them 
know what
  Jesus said while praying and how did any of them know that he 
sweated blood?

  In fact, in John, Jesus does not pray and no one falls asleep. In 
Mark, we
  find the same (almost) as in Luke, that is, details about what 
Jesus said in
  his prayer related by (one of?) those that were sleeping at the 
time. In
  Matthew, we have a similar story with detail that no one was 
awake to
  witness.

  Furthermore, in reading these three passages one gets the 
distinct feeling
  that Jesus wasn't exactly thrilled by the prospect of being 
sacrificed for
  the sins of mankind.
  


  Gen. 1:12 --- grass and herb created
  Gen. 1:21 --- fish and fowl created
  Gen. 1:25 --- beasts, cattle and creeping things created
  Gen. 1:27 --- man created

  Now...

  Gen. 2:18 --- it is noted that God did not want the man to be alone
  Gen. 2:19 --- so... beasts and fowl created

  Note that in Gen. 1:25 beast are created _followed_ by v26 which 
says that
  god wanted to create man and in v27 he does. In 2:18 the reason 
given for
  creating the beasts etc is that god didn't want man to be alone 
so he
  created beasts.

  How can anyone possibly claim that this is not a blatant 
contradiction
  without giving up any appearance that they may be sane? **

  To recap...

  In Gen. 2 the _reason_ that beasts are created is because man 
should not be
  alone. This can only mean that man existed prior to the creation 
of the
  beasts.

  In Gen. 1 the _reason_ that man was created was because he was to 
have
  dominion over the beasts. This can only mean that the beasts 
already
  existed.

  Note the use of the word 'so' in Gen. 1:27 and the word 'will' in 
Gen.
  2:18. These _have_ to mean that the chronology is as stated. 
There is no
  need to believe anything ahead of time. The language used and the 
statements
  made make it abundantly clear that the order is different. If 
anyone denies
  this then we can only have serious concerns for their mental 
health.
  

  If there is any area that one would suppose would be cohesive and 
accurate it
  should be in the area of the genealogy of Jesus, David and Adam. 
However,
  even an area of such importance is contradictory and replete with 
obvious,
  glaring errors.

  (*) Definite disparity. Note first is as early as Jesus' 
grandfather.

  (?) Most likely simply a spelling error.
  (!) Out of sync similarity.
  (1) Common to both but out of sync.
  (2) Common to both but out of sync.
  (3) Back in sync.
  (4) End of last common sync.
  (5) Start in sync to Adam.

   Matthew         Luke            I.Chronicles
   ------------    ------------    ------------
    Jesus           Jesus
    Joseph          Joseph
   *Jacob          *Heli
    Matthan        ?Matthat
    Eleazar        ?Levi
    Eliud           Melchi
    Achim           Janna
    Sadoc           Joseph
    Azor            Mattathias
   !Eliakim         Amos
    Abiud           Naum
                    Esli
                    Nagge
                    Maath
                    Mattathias
                    Semei
                    Joseph
                    Juda
                    Joanna
                    Rhesa
   1Zorobabel      1Zorobabel
   2Salathiel      2Salathiel
    Jechonias       Neri
    Josias          Melchi
    Amon            Addi
    Manasses        Cosam
    Ezekias         Elmodam
    Achaz           Er
    Joatham        ?Jose
    Ozias          ?Eliezer
    Joram          ?Jorim
                    Matthat
                    Levi
                    Simeon
                    Juda
    Josaphat       ?Joseph
    Asa             Jonan
    Abia           !Eliakim
    Roboam          Melea
                    Menan
                    Mattatha
   *Solomon        *Nathan
   3David          3David          3David    (2:15)
    Jesse           Jesse           Jesse
    Obed            Obed            Obed
    Booz            Booz           ?Boaz
    Salmon          Salmon         ?Salma
    Naasson        ?Naasson        ?Nahshon
    Aminadab        Aminadab       ?Amminadab
    Aram            Aram           ?Ram
    Esrom           Esrom          ?Hezron
    Phares          Phares         ?Pharez
    Judas          ?Juda           ?Judah
   *Jacob          *Jacob          *Israel   (2:1)
    Isaac           Isaac           Isaac
   4Abraham        4Abraham         Abraham  (1:34)
                    Thara          ?Terah    (1:26)
                    Nachor         ?Nahor
                    Saruch         ?Serug
                    Ragau          ?Reu
                    Phalec         ?Peleg
                    Heber          ?Eber
                    Sala          4?Shelah
                   *Cainan
                    Arphaxad       5Arphaxad
                    Sem            ?Shem
                    Noe            ?Noah
                    Lamech          Lamech
                    Mathusala      ?Methuselah
                    Enoch          ?Henoch
                    Jared          ?Jered
                    Maleleel       ?Mahalaleel
                    Cainan         ?Kenan
                    Enos           ?Enosh
                    Seth           ?Sheth
                    Adam            Adam

  There is a 15 generation difference between Matthew and Luke. 
Matthew has
  Jesus descended from David through Solomon and Luke has it 
through Nathan.
  

  Arpachshad's son was Shelah - Gen 11:12
  Arpachshad's grandson was Shelah - Luke 3:35-36
  

  The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 430 years - Ex 12:40
  The Hebrews dwelt in Egypt for 400 years - Acts 7:6
  

  God's plague kills 24,000 - Num 25:9

  God's plague kills 23,000 - 1 Cor 10:8
  

  God forbids killing - Ex 20:13
  God commands killing - Ex 32:27
  

  Jesse had eight children - 1 Sam 16:10-13
  Jesse had seven children - 1 Chron 2:13-15
  

  David slays Goliath - 1 Sam 17:4,7,50
  Elhanan slays Goliath - 2 Sam 21:19
  

  The importance of wisdom - Proverbs 4:7
  The unimportance of wisdom - 1 Cor 1:19
  

  The joy of wisdom - Proverbs 3:13-15
  The misery of wisdom -  Ecc 1:18
  

  According to  Luke  2:21-39,  Jesus  is  taken  to  the Jerusalem 
Temple
  eight  days  after  he  is  born;  the family then go up  to  
Nazareth.  In
  Matthew  2:14-23, after being born the family  flee  in  Egypt  
and  stay
  there until Herod dies; even on returning,  they  avoid Judea and 
go up to
  Nazareth.
  

  Jesus began his ministry after John the Baptist is imprisoned - 
Mark
  1:14,15,17.
  Jesus began his ministry while John was free and before being 
imprisoned -
  John 1:28-29, 3:25-30
  

  Jesus baptised - John 3:22
  Jesus did not baptise - John 4:2
  

  No one has ascended into heaven before Jesus - John 3:13
  Elijah ascended into heaven - 2 Kings 2:11
  

  Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows - Luke  22:34, John 12:38
  Peter denies Jesus before the cock crows twice -  Mark 14:30, 14:72
  

  Simon of Cyrene carries Jesus' cross - Matthew 27:32
  Jesus carries his own cross - John 19:17,18
  

  Abraham was justified by faith - Rom  4:1-5
  Abraham was justified by works - James 2:22-24
  

  Judas dies by hanging himself - Matt 27:5-7
  Judas dies by swelling up - Acts 1:18
  

  Acts 9:7 states that the men with Paul stood speechless, hearing 
the voice
  but not seeing anyone.
  Acts 22:9 states they did not hear the voice.
  Acts 26:14 states they all fell to the ground and did hear the 
voice.
  


Matthew 27:5   states that Judas went out and hanged himself.

Acts 1:16-18   it states that Judas "...purchased a field with the 
reward of
               iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in 
the
               midst, and all his bowels gushed out."

  


Matthew 1:16   And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom 
was born
               Jesus, who is called Christ.

Luke 3:23      And Jesus himself began to be  about  thirty  years  
of age,
               being (as was supposed) the son of Joseph, which was 
the son
               of Heli,

  


Matthew 27:46,50    And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a 
loud voice,
                    saying, "Eli, eli,  lama sabachthani?" that is 
to say, "My
                    God, my God, why hast thou forsaken  me?" 
...Jesus, when he
                    cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the 
ghost.

Luke 23:46          And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he 
said, "Father,
                    unto thy hands I commend my spirit:" and having 
said thus, he
                    gave up the ghost.

John 19:30          When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, 
he said, "It
                    is finished:" and he bowed his head, and gave 
up the ghost.

  


Proverbs 4:7        Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get 
wisdom:
                    and with all thy getting get understanding.

Ecclesiastes 1:18        For in much wisdom is much grief: and he 
that
                         increaseth knowledge increaseth sorrow.

1 Corinthians 1:19  For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of 
the
                    wise, and will bring to nothing the 
understanding of
                    the prudent.

  


Acts 2:30           Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God 
had
                    sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of 
his
                    loins, according to the flesh, he would raise 
up Christ
                    to sit on his throne;

Matthew 1:18        Now the birth of Jesus Christ was on this wise: 
When as
                    his mother Mary was espoused to Joseph, before 
they
                    came together, she was found with child of the 
Holy
                    Ghost.

Romans 1:3               Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, 
which was
                         made of the seed of David, according to 
the flesh.

  



Matthew 28:1   In the end of the sabbath, as it began to  dawn  
toward the
               first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the 
other Mary
               to see the sepulchre.

Mark 16:1      And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and 
Mary the
               mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet 
spices, that
               they might come and anoint him.

John 20:1      The first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene 
early, when
               it was yet dark, unto the sepulchre, and seeth the 
stone
               taken away from the sepulchre.

  


John 10:30          I and my Father are one.

John 14:28          Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, 
and come again
                    unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, 
because I said, I
                    go unto the Father: for my Father is greater 
than I.

  


Genesis 1:25   And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, 
and
               cattle after their kind, and every thing that 
creepeth upon
               the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was 
good.

Genesis 1:26   And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our
               likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish 
of the
               sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the 
cattle, and
               over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that
               creepeth upon the earth.

Genesis 2:18   And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man 
should be
               alone; I will make him an help meet for him.

Genesis 2:19   And out of the ground the LORD God formed every 
beast of the
               field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them 
unto Adam
               to see what he would call them:  and whatsoever Adam 
called
               every living creature, that was the name thereof.

  


Genesis 7:2    Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by 
sevens, the male
               and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by 
two, the male
               and his female.

Genesis 7:8    Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, 
and of fowls,
               and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth,

Genesis 7:9    There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, 
the male and the
               female, as God had commanded Noah.

  


**   This argument logically flawed, in fact neither statement 
contains enough
     information to determine whether men or beasts were created 
first.  In
     principle, it is only required that God had knowledge of man's 
creation
     when he created the beasts, and vise-versa, in order for both 
statements
     to be true.  More specifically, God may have created the 
beasts to
     provide company for the men that he knew he would create in 
the future,
     or, he may have created man to have dominion over his future 
creations.

     If I were to make the statement:

     "Spacesuits were created so that men could fly in rockets."

     Would you be able to deduce whether the spacesuit or the 
rocket was
     created first?  What if I were to say:

     "Rockets were created to carry men in spacesuits into space."

     What conclusion would you reach in this case?

     Whether or not the whole story contains even a grain of truth 
is another
     matter. [Bill Fontes]

6: A short course in comparitive 
religion

7TH DAY ADVENTIST        Shit happens on Saturdays.
AGNOSTICISM              Does shit exist?
AGNOSTICISM              I don't know whether shit happens.
AMARICANISM              I'll gladly pay through the nose for this 
shit.
APATHEISM                Who gives a damn about this shit.
ATHEISM                  I don't believe this shit.
ATHEISM                  There is no shit!
BAHA'I                   Shi't ha'ppe'ns
BONZAI BOZOISM           Make shit happen.. OH SHIT!!
BORN AGAIN               Shit happens but I am saved.
BUDDHISM                 If shit happens, it isn't really shit.
BUDDHISM                 When shit happens, is it really shit?
BUSH                     A thousand points of shit.
CALVINISM                If you're not saved, tough shit.
CASTRO                   We have to make this shit work somehow.
CATHOLICISM              If shit happens, I deserve it.
CATHOLICISM              Let shit happen to someone else.
CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST      If shit happens, don't worry. It will go 
away on
                         its own time if you pray for it.
CHRISTIAN SCIENTIST      Shit isn't real.
CONFUCIANISM             Confucious say, "shit happens".
DEJA VUISM               I've been through this shit before.
DEMOCRATISM              How can we send a man to the moon and 
still have all
                         this shit.
DIANETICS                You need to clear yourself of this shit.
EASTERN ORTHODOX         Rome doesn't know shit.
EPISCOPALIAN             Fecal matter occurs.
EVANGELISM               Shit happens. (Pass it on.)
EXISTENTIAL              I shit, therefore I sit.
FUNDAMENTALISM           Born-again shit.
GERTRUDE STEIN           A shit is a shit is a shit.
GORBACHEV                That shit just didn't work.
HARE KRISHNA             Shit happens rama rama ding ding.
HEDONISM                 When shit happens, enjoy it!
HINDUISM                 This shit happened before.
HOLISTIC                 There's more shit here than I figured on.
ISLAM                    If shit happens, it is the will of Allah.
ISLAM                    We make shit happen to everybody else.
JAINISM                  Shit happens but don't step in it.
JEHOVAH'S WITLESS        Do you want to buy a subscription to our 
shit?
JEHOVAH'S WITNESS        Knock, knock. "shit Happens."
JESUITISM                If shit happens and no one hears it, did 
it really
                         make a sound?
JIM JONESISM             If shit happens, drink Kool-Aid.
JUDAISM                  Why does this shit always happen to us?
LAO-TZU                  It is utterly pointless to try to explain 
shit.
MINIMALIST               Shit
MORMONISM                Shit happens again & again & again.
                         It's evil to say "shit."
                         Wear your magic underware and this shit 
won't happen
NATIVE AMERICAN          We want our shit back!
NEW AGE                  Crystal power counteracts shit.
NEW AGE                  Shit happens and it happens to smell good.
PENTACOSTALISM           Praise the shit!
PROTESTANTISM            If shit happens, you deserve it.
PROTESTANTISM            This shit won't happen if I work harder.
RASTAFARIANISM           Let's smoke this shit.
REPUBLICANISM            There's nothing like a good shit.  Flush 
the toilet.
RLDS                     Brigham is full of shit.
SATANISM                 Shit rules!
SCIENTOLOGY              This shit is expensive.
SECULAR HUMANISM         Shit evolves.
SHINTOISM                Everything except Japan is shit.
STOICISM                 So shit happens, Big deal. I can take it.
TAOISM                   Shit happens.
TELEVANGELISM            This shit won't happen if you donate 
$99.95 to me.
UNITARIAN                Shit is all basically the same.
UNITARIAN                What is this shit?
VEGETARIANISM            I don't eat that shit!
ZEN                      What is the sound of shit happening?

7: Echo Sampler 
(Quotes)

     "In other words, you're full of shit, you *know* you're full 
of shit, you
     know that *we* know you're full of shit, and you simply don't 
have the
     backbone to come out of the full-of-shit closet." - David 
Worrell

     "I thank God there are no free schools nor printing, and I 
hope we shall
     not have these [for a] hundred years; for learning has brought
     disobedience, and heresy, and sects into the world, and 
printing has
     divulged them." - William Berkeley, Governor of the Colony of 
Virginia,
     1671

     "Welcome to the lovely world of HolySmoke!  Watch out!  The 
sugar-coating
     you now wear will probably wear off before long.  It doesn't 
take very
     long, here.  We're the Comet Cleanser of religion." - Questor 
Thews

     "We're not here to discuss religion, we're here to be 
disgusted by it." -
       Gwen "Gwenny the Pooh" Todd

     "Some parents, primarily fundamentalist Christians, would like 
the
     schools to teach their particular moral values.  Those values 
are not
     necessarily shared by everyone." - D Mc Intire (talk.origins / 
Usenet)

     "Wrong!  I'm the fucking antichrist.  Bow down slave!" - Ryan 
Shaw

     "You must suffer from some unknown mental condition, Andy.  
Throughout
     your posts you seem to equate liberalism with people who you 
consider
     "evolutionists[sic]." Liberalism, and conservatism for that 
matter are
     both political theories and have very little to do with 
whether or not
     one is considered an "evolutionist[sic]" by you.  Wait, on the 
other hand
     most dumbass rednecks seem to be conservative.  Shit, I take 
that back.
     Even a redneck isn't that stupid." -RS

     "I feel sorry for you, 'cause when the END comes, you are 
going to be one
     of those crying for the rocks and mountains to fall on you to 
hide you
     from God's glory.  You will finally fall on your face and 
worship the One
     that created ALL, and then you will not have a chance.  A 
carpenter was
     not elected as God, not by anyone of this world.  You will 
know, one day
     that God wanted you to follow Him and THEN it will be too 
late.  I have
     pity for you, for as you are speaking now, you are lost.  You 
can believe
     whatever you want to, God gave you that choice, and you choose 
to follow
     the devil.  May God have mercy on your soul." - Greg Waggy

     "If you are from an area where gays aren't bashed you wont be 
afraid to
     experiment if you want." - Jeff Androsac

     "YOU AREN'T BORN GAY!!!  I DON'T CARE WHAT HOMOSEXUALS SAY, 
THEY CHOOSE
     TO BE GAY.  AND THEY MADE THE WRONG CHOICE, SO HELL AWAITS 
THEM!" - JA

     "The Church is very tolerant, as is proven by God not sending a
     lightening bolt to fry those who blaspheme in the manner which 
the ULC
     does - particularly by taking something which God and millions 
of men
     hold sacred, and then attempting to make a joke of it, 
belittling it, and
     smearing it with every type of ridicule you can think of." - 
Fr.  Lee Mc
     Colloster

     "It is nice to rember, when people are so foolish, one day 
soon every
     knee  will bow and every mouth will confess Jesus as Lord!!!" 
- Hampie
     Mcdonald

     "A.I.D.S. was actually a GAY disease until the gay scum 
community
     infected the NORMAL world!" - Dale A. Cook

     "Key words: "we want".  Instead of making demands, why not try 
working to
     those ends?  Preferably without shotguns." - Marty Leipzig

     "Look, Chickie. It's your Bible, your rules; YOU go to hell." 
- ML

     "Coming from a person who can see through a keyhole with both 
eyes open,
     I just consider the source." - ML

     "I think you're anti-science, anti-intellect and anti-logic. 
The mere
     fact that you're a Xtian to boot really does nothing other 
than label you
     with the type of superstition with which you feel most 
comfortable." - ML

     "Read up on what you rant about; perhaps then you won't come 
across as
     such a blightered moron.  Perhaps." - ML

     "Of course it just seems that way you to you as you dwell in 
that
     paranoid fetid martyred delusion you call a life. Judges and 
school
     administrators are there to protect the populace from the 
Neofascist,
     hate-mongering, right-wing, ignorance inculcating group of 
Fundamentalist
     liars who try to pawn off their own fallacious view of 
narrowly dogmatic,
     and hallucinatory, morality as science.  Against that we must 
be ever
     vigilant.  We cannot again allow the armies of the night, clad 
in their
     tawdry Bible passages and threadbare beliefs, to usurp what 
they can
     never attain justifiably; however they may lie, cheat or 
swindle." - ML

     "My name is Marty, and I too, like our illustrious author of 
the missive
     immediately above, am an unrepentant fundy basher. Just as 
some people
     feel compelled to rubberneck terrible traffic accidents, 
purchase police
     scanners to vicariously hear of other's misfortunes or stomp 
some clod's
     foot protruding into the aisle in a particularly crowded 
airline flight;
     I am possessed by the unrelenting desire, nay, compulsion, to 
help
     certain people who are consumed by the passion to make idiots of
     themselves, either personally or in international electronic 
fora.  When
     some "person" proudly proclaims that "man evolved from apes"; 
I see this
     as nothing more than a plaintive cry for self-immolation.  
When they
     claim that there's "boats in dem dere hills"; again, the 
pitiful cry of a
     person desperate to be martyred, but without the genetic or 
intellectual
     horsepower to carry it out themselves.  When they spew 
plaintive Bible
     verses to document everything from their own particularly 
skewed, and
     oftimes hallucinatory, view of morality to make an attempt at
     justification of atrocities, injustices and just plain 
antisociality;
     they are merely whining, in their own bizarre and stridulatory 
manner,
     for someone to come along and humiliate them with a blizzard 
of fact,
     logic and reason.  And yet some would go so far to condemn my 
actions.  I
     see it as preforming a service to these  benighted 
individuals; a sort of
     an electronic version of Dr. Kevorkian." - ML

     "Welcome to Holysmoke.  That is probably the last  nice thing 
I will ever
     say to you.  Such is life." - George Rudzinski

     "Control,  Are you stupid?  Do you see Jesus dumbass?" - GR

      "And you are still short one live Jesus dumbass.  What part 
of that don't
     you understand?" - GR

     "I interact just fine with fellow human beings.  What has yet 
to be
     established is that you are human." - GR

     "I have no problems with my self esteem.  I don't need any 
imaginary
     friends to get me through life." - GR

     "Fundies are dazed and confused.  Like a duck hit on the 
head." - GR

     "And nobody considers you to be stupid.  You have shown that 
you are.  No
     need to get pissed at us because you decide to demonstrate 
that you are
     stupid." - GR

     "So don't practice sex.  The gene pool won't miss your 
participation." -
     GR

     "So me blowing your head off is okay?  I'm beginning to see 
that such a
     wound wouldn't be fatal." - GR

     "Mark 16: 15-19.  If you have the faith I have the cure." -GR

     "Well God don't talk to me.  And until you cough up the 
chemical formula
     for the pills sitting on my monitor, God don't talk to you." - 
GR

     "Hardly.  My heathen premise is that screwing my wife on a 
Sunday morning
     has top priority over wasting time listening to some snake-oil 
salesmen
     in what ever church you wish to pick." - GR

     "I so love to see Christians disagree.  Why don't we lock the 
two of you
     in a room with a loaded gun and the Bible?  And the one that 
walks out
     alive gets to be the "True" christian." - GR

     "When you are on fire, no matter how many times you scream you 
are not on
     fire, it doesn't put the flames out." - GR

     "I personally believe religion is a mind killer and the most 
evil thing
     that one man has ever foisted on another." - GR

     "Many religious people think I'm the anti-Christ.  I guess 
that would
     qualify as an affiliation." - GR

     "I am compelled to reply to this discussion.  As a Christian, 
I feel that
     people who are Gay or Lesbian are children of God, and that 
they like us
     are loved by God.  There is no mention to my knowledlge in 
either the Old
     Testament or the New Testament that Homosexuality is accursed 
by God
     whatsoever.  Therefore, there is no Moral position based on 
the Bible in
     Christianity which condemms it.  True, there is no position 
either which
     blesses it as well.  Homosexuality exit, it is neither good or 
bad, as
     these are our own values being imposed on it, and as such 
reflect our own
     fears or ignorance.  For instance, in the last 30 years 
Blacks, and Women
     have achieved a level of equality unheard of centuries before, 
and what
     is more true is that taking away their advances is 
blasphemous, and
     unconiousable.  Gay people are no different than you or I, 
they have
     families that care for them, they work and contribute to our 
society
     greatly.  To deny them equal rights under the law, and 
morally, would be
     the same as stepping back into time when tyrants ran the world 
and people
     different from them were put to the sword.  Any attack on Gay 
people is
     just plain homophobia, and disguising it as morally wrong 
because the
     Rev.  Jerry Falwell(for example) condems it, is just plain 
stupidity.
     Gay people want acceptance and respect as citizens, brothers, 
sisters,
     mothers, and  fathers, friends, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc.  
I am glad
     that we live in a  age when people are shaking off old 
irrational fears
     and bigotry, even though we have a long way to go before we 
can build a
     society, and world based on love and respect.  I just hope I 
will see it
     in my lifetime." - John Oliver

     "I advocate the murder of no one.  However, I _do_ advocate 
referring to
     an  abortionist doctor as an infant murdering, satan-led 
monster,
     masquerading as a doctor of medicine.  Reason: He is one." - 
"Lon S.
     Mabon"

     "Preston, you should know that when a person is saved (born 
again) they
     become a new person in Christ.  New means you start from the 
beginning.
     As in Baby.." - David (2' 5") Cupp.

     "Argument from popularity.  There was a time when a hundred 
percent of
     the  world's population thought the world was flat (if they 
thought about
     it at  all).  Did the make the world flat?  Hardly!  It make a 
hundred
     percent of the people stupid, and nothing more." - Marilyn Burge

     "Take your bible banging and shove it where the sun don't 
shine.  It is a
     farce and totally unnecessary to a worthwhile, virtuous life, 
if only you
     were adult enough to know it." - MB

     "This brings some strange mental images to mind.  First we 
have Christ
     blowing a column of fire out of his ass like a Saturn V. And 
then we have
     the Virgin Mary strapped onto the side of a booster like the 
Space
     Shuttle." - J.J. Hitt

     "But this echo is where we deal with stupid shit.

     The All Time Ultimate In Stupid Shit.

     Like the motion that our conduct should be regulated by the 
moral code of
     some 4000 year old nomadic Desert Tramps whose favorite 
pasttimes were
     incest and killing each other with rocks.

     [...]

     Or the notion that there is some Invisible Guy who knows 
everything and
     controls the universe...  who just happens to be asleep at the 
switch
     right now.

     [...]

     Or the incedibly stupid notion that the Invisible Guy had a 
bastard son
     who went around teaching people to love one another by calling 
everybody
     he met names like "snake" and "dog".  (It's really no wonder 
they nailed
     the guy to a board.)

     [...]

     Or the notion that the Invisible Guy's Bastard Son rose from 
the dead and
     is going to come back "REAL SOON NOW", even though he's almost 
2000 years
     overdue.

     [...]

     Or...  and here's the Biggest Lie of the bunch; if you live by 
the rules
     of Desert Tramps, believe in the Invisible Guy and do the 
things his
     Bastard said, then when you die you get to go live in the Big 
Rock Candy
     Mountain for ever and ever.

     When it comes to STUPID SHIT, the above just can't be beat." - 
JJH

     "I been to Alabama.  It's every bit as backwards as it's 
reputation.  It's
     sort of like you had taken the open-mindedness of Utah and 
crossed it with
     the intelligence of Louisianna." - JJH

     "A flawed argument at best: an abusive parent who is only 
beating their
     children can point at the parent who is sexualy abusing their 
children
     and say that there is nothing wrong with their own actions 
because
     someone else is doing worse. The sexually abusive parent can 
point to the
     parent who kills their children. The parent who kills their 
children in
     turn can point to someone who has killed more children than 
they have.
     If you only compare yourself to the worst examples you can 
find, of
     course you will always come out smelling like a rose.  Please 
try to say
     something a little less stupid in your next reply." - JJH

     "The fundies that come through here start out by trying to 
display an
     attitude of thoughtful discussion.  When they find that their 
mythologies
     are systematically disassembled and found to _be_ myths, 
coupled with the
     friction specifically designed to remove their sugar coating, 
the actual
     Christian under said sugar coating is exposed.  And you can 
guess what's
     under it.  I couldn't begin to enumerate those who 
specifically stated
     that they wished they could be around to watch the hurtful, 
educated
     HolySmoke participants `burn in 'hell.'" - Fredric Rice

     "<laughing!>  Calm down, fundy.  Climb down from that tree and 
settle the
     hairs on your back side.  I won't hurt you.  Look.  I put the 
stick down.
     See?  All safe." - FR

     "'I am saved.' From what?  Having to think for yourself?" - FR

     "Are you just naked, or are you naked for Jesus?" -FR

     "It's rather like having Freedie Kruger babysit children.  Or 
asking Pee
     Wee Herman to teach human sexuality.  Or asking Jim Bakker to be
     treasurer of the United States.  Or asking Jim Jones to look 
over the
     refreshments." - FR

     "To believe in something without reason, that is to say, without
     reasonable grounds, is superstition, whether it is a belief 
that a black
     cat crossing your path will bring you bad luck, or God may 
pass judgement
     over your soul and send you to Hell for your evils." -Michael 
Gothreau

     "FUCK YOU ATHEIST!  WHEN I FIND OUT WHERE YOU LIVE, I'LL DRIVE A
     PITCHFORK THROUGH THAT EMPTY HEAD OF YOURS, YOU ARROGANT PIG!  
THE GOD OF
     ABRAHAM DOES NOT STRIKE YOU BY LIGHTENING.  SO GET YOUR HEAD 
OUT OF YOUR
     ATHEIST ANCIENT GREECE BOOK OF FALSE GODS, AND WAKE UP.  WHEN 
YOU DIE,
     YOU'RE GOING TO HELL, AND ARE GOING TO PERMANENTLY SUFFER DOWN 
THERE.
     AND I'LL BE LAUGHING AT ALL THE ATHEIST BASTARDS IN THIS ECHO, 
WHEN I'M
     UP IN HEAVEN.  THERE IS NO WAY OUT OF HELL, JUST A WAY IN.  
AND THAT IS
     WHERE YOU ARE HEADED!  OH I SEE.  ALABAMA?  YOU BETTER WATCH 
OUT.
     EVERYONE FROM THE SOUTH IS GUILTY OF INCEST.  I GUESS THAT'S 
ANOTHER
     REASON WHY YOU ARE GOING STRAIGHT TO HELL!  THE TERMINAL BBS?  
OH, I
     UNDERSTAND.  YOU ARE TERMANILLY RETARTED, BECAUSE YOU ARE THE 
PRODUCT OF
     INCEST!  HAVE A NICE DAY, LOSER BOY." - Christopher Calabrese 
[Christian
     family values]

     "Debunking religions based upon hot air... is why this echo 
exists.
     Exposing hot air, although it cannot be seen by the naked eye, 
is a
     simple matter of having a theist speak into a balloon.  When 
you pop the
     balloon,  there is no more substance than what was there 
before.  (Other
     than perhaps some saliva.  Some theists froth more than 
others.)" - Styx
     Allum

     "Omnipresence precludes any "separation from the body of 
Christ".  One
     cannot escape omnipresence.  Therefor, your god would also 
have to exist
     within Satan." - SA

     "My clue, is Christ is coming, soon.  Where are you going to 
be, when he
     comes to take the believers, in Heaven or hell." - Marguerite 
Kendall

     "If I was a satanist, humanist, or an atheist, it would be no 
problem.
     But because I stand for Christ, I get jumped on, name called, 
etc.  There
     have  been posts, on satanism, and humanism.  But nothing 
happens, to the
     person who posts those messages.  That person gets praise 
heaped upon
     him.  But when I posted something on christianisty, adverse 
reaction
     happen." - MK

     "Perhaps you would send some [newspaper articles] my 
way...yeah...I know
     it's like the rest of your life...one big circus of lies." - Ron
     Stringfellow

     "One thing at a time.  Answer the question, godling." - RS

     "Peter, I know what pi r2 is and have since the beginning.  . 
.  and I am
     sure that god took that into account." - RS

     "Faith in yourself will not help when the problem is beyond your
     control." - Steve Bedard

     "This ain't the harmony echo, dipshit." - Robert Curry

     "If the theists all shut up, the gods would be speechless." - RC

     "Funny how the gods tend to share the Political views of those 
who speak
     for them." - RC

     "Creation 'Science' is to science what Rap 'Music' is to 
music: a lot of
     noise and utterly incoherent." - David Rice

     "It is like arguing with a lump of shit.  The longer one 
argues with
     shit, the sillier one appears, and the shit ain't listening." 
- DR

     "In response to entreaties from around the world, the 
leadership of Iran
     has announced that it will deal with Salman Rushdie in a more 
Christian
     fashion.  But they have to find a place for the stake where it 
won't set
     an oil well on fire." - DR (It's a JOKE, bozo)

     "Any god who was elected a god by majority vote, like Jesus, 
must have a
     severe identity crisis." - DR

     "Speed kills.  Wrapping your automobile around a concrete 
bridge pylon
     probably voids the warrantee." - DR

     "I think Ms. [Linda "UN at Waco"] Thompson has some valid 
points.
     Honestly." - DR

     "You're one complete pile of shit, and a bigoted one, too.  
Even your god
     damnable bible says "created man in his own image".  And you 
have the
     audacity to say that an innocent child does not have the right 
to be
     saved by your god damned god?" - Dan Ceppa

     "Your English teachers only use a 23-letter alphabet?  I've 
heard of
     cutbacks in education, but that's rediculous!" - DC

     "I predict that you will take a breath of fresh air and 
actually take
     another.  Hey!!!  Why the fuck are you turning blue on me????  
Well, one
     less fundy to woryy about......" - DC

     "Mankind didn't progress as far as it has by saying, "God said 
that men
     can't fly" but by breaking those laws and flying.  What is 
going on
     around us now is an attempt to do just the same thing that the 
Romans
     used xianity for:  To keep people ignorant, ignorant as to who 
they
     really are and are far they can go." - DC

     "You're incapable of any rational response, so why start now?" 
- DC

     "Please don't apologize.  It makes me want to taunt you a 
second time." -
      Shelby Sherman

     "We treat fundies and apologists with appropriat counseling in 
this forum
     - Up the side of the head with the lug wrench of truth." - SS

     "By-the-way, Mary is still a slut and your precious Jesus is 
long dead
     and  rotted in the grave.  I've profaned your Savior, now what 
do you
     intend to do about it?" - SS

     "Damn, I asked for evidence and all I got was this lousy Josh 
McDowell
     T-shirt." - SS

     "Tell me, why does God need to prove himself?  He is based on 
belief.
     You are to believe, not to question!  God performs miracles 
every day." -
     Steve Lew

     "Let's face it, matters of spirituality have to do with the 
spirit, not
     the intellect." - Carl Schulz

     "This echo is abomination.  This echo is also filled with 
those who will
     one day bend their knee to Jesus Christ and call him Lord, 
whether they
     like it or not!  And to think how much fun I'm gonna have fun 
watching
     you say it." - Martin Riley

     "The fact that a Jewish hasid lived in the 1st century CE in 
the country
     of  either Galilee or Judaea, was very charismatic, a little 
brilliant
     and a  little looney is not in question." - Simon Ewins

     "If God is "infinite and eternal and the Creator of all" then 
God must be
     the creator of evil. Since God created evil, the concept of 
evil must
     have, at least, passed through his mind and, further, since 
"whatever is
     good is good because it is consistent with his mind" the 
reverse must
     also be true. That is, "whatever is evil is evil because it is 
consistent
     with his mind". This makes God directly responsible for all of 
the evil
     that exists since it was "created from his mind". This 
requires that evil
     itself must be "consistent with his mind".  So, is the mind of 
god
     predominantly good or evil? The amount of evil in the world 
(according to
     Christian theology) far outweighs the amount of good. This 
would indicate
     that God created more evil than he did good. This would 
indicate that the
     "mind" of God is predominantly evil. Why would one wish to 
worship a God
     who's "mind" is mostly evil?  More interesting, however, is your
     anthropomorphizing of god. You assign God a "mind". How do you 
know that
     God has a "mind"?" - SE

     "Is this the depth of your naivete, or do we have more to look 
forward
     to?" - SE

     "Jesus made claims that have been proven to be wrong...  Mark 
9:1,
     Matthew 16:28, Matthew 23:36, Luke 9:27, Matthew 24:21- 34, 
Matthew
     10:23...  all claiming foreknowledge of his return, all wrong. 
 Gee,
     maybe he's dead." - SE

     "Lies are hard to keep straight in an era without sophisticated
     communications, it would seem." - SE

     "Are you looking to win the award for most stupid question?  
Setting
     aside for a moment that rocks are hard what would be the 
result of one
     dropping on your head?  You can't 'set aside' an essential 
element of
     _anything_ and expect to find an answer that bears any 
relationship to
     reality." - SE

     "To accept as truth what the gospels (which were written after 
Paul's
     letters and were designed to support his ideas) say about 
Jesus, is to
     accept as truth what Goebbels says about Hitler.  To accept as 
truth what
     Paul says about himself as supported by what the author of 
Acts says
     about Paul, is to accept what Hitler says about himself as 
supported by
     what Goebbels says about Hitler as truth." - SE

     "Christianity has nothing to be proud of.  Any good that it 
may have done
     has been completely offset by the perpetuation of racial and 
religious
     hatred that it has fostered and encouraged." - SE

     "Paul only quotes Jesus twice.  Why would that be if he is 
basing his
     entire theology on the life and work and resurrection of 
Jesus?" - SE

     "God told me the Book of Mormon was true." - Conrad Knudson

     "Needless to say, the LDC's birth-rates are just rediculous... 
 I'm for
     compulsary sterilization, muh-self." - Jeff Freeman

     "I missed being god by one vote!" - Odin

     "Ciya is a blasphemous tool of your cunning." - Jesse Jones

     "What you call a refusal to answer was a refusal to respond" - 
JJ

     "When we believe that our individual will is the superior 
force in the
     cosmos we deny the harmony which creation itself seeks.  
Jesus's struggle
     in Gesthemane shows us that there is a will to be served 
beyond our own
     self-interests. . ." - JJ

     "BUT...  if I told you that 1+1=1, as idiotic as it seems, 
until I am
     proven wrong, I am right." - Zach Webb

     "My my, I have the false Christian scum (and their infidel, 
reprobate
     brethren), the Sodomites and the general filth of FidoNet all 
ganging up
     on  me." - Steve Winter

     "Aids cures queers." - SW

     "I wish I was their to light the ovens." - William Stone

     "Do you imagine that sexuality began with mammals?  
Cockroaches are male
     and female, as you would notice if you paid any attention to 
your
     congregation." - Don Martin

     "Sorry to leave you out, but I do not number asshole dipshits 
among my
     friends.  Now, since you have made this assertion about this 
particular
     loon, please be so good as to show that his handle is indeed a 
"warrior
     name", that it was given to this jerk by somebody else, and 
the ways in
     which we may be sure that he did not apply the name to 
himself, as part of
     his masturbatory fantasies.  I shall probably live; whether 
shall I learn
     anything from your idiot speculations about third parties 
remains
     dependent upon your ability to provide some evidence for your 
assertion."
     - DM

     "I have here a promissory note signed by you pledging to pay 
me $493,278
     by November 30, 1995, or to incur further indebtedness to me 
at the rate
     of 10%, compounded daily and payable upon demand.  And here it 
is,
     December 9, and I haven't seen a farthing.

     Prove to me that this promissory note does not exist or pay me 
my money by
     certified check.  Now.

     Either that, or learn about the fallacy of shifting the burden 
of proof.
     [...]

     Actually, I would rather prefer that you learned nothing about 
the fallacy
     (and my confidence is buoyed considerably by your repeated 
demonstrations
     that you take a back seat to no one in the matter of learning 
nothing) and
     just sent me the money." - DM

     "You know, I work very hard at my insults, striving for the 
greatest
     amount of put-down in the fewest words, hopefully with some 
memorable
     imagery.  One of my favorites, for instance, was to a fundy 
picketing a
     film: "When I want something like your opinion, I'll give my 
dog an
     enema." It is succinct, I think, and properly disgusting, 
while presenting
     a process that ends in the satirist's all-time favorite 
material, shit."
      - DM

     "Have you any notion how very boring your constant mantra of 
"C.S. Lewis,
     Charles Williams, Dorothy Sayers, J.R.R. Tolkien, G.K. 
Chesterton" gets
     to be after a while? Nobody denies that there have been and 
continue to
     be brilliant people who believe in religions. Their impact, 
however, on
     our daily lives is a great deal less than the folks with 
12-guage
     shotguns who may appear at any moment to "justly punish" a 
baby killer
     (and anyone  standing in the vicinity) for Christ, the Jim 
Bakkers who
     suck the money from the poor, the Pat Robertsons who seek to 
change the
     laws and other believing riff-raff who otherwise share 
precious little
     with the likes of C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, Dorothy 
Sayers, J.R.R.
     Tolkien, G.K. Chesterton, et al." - DM

     "And they're the ones who keep saying to us "why are you so 
ANGRY?" At
     least I am not so angry that I have to deny rights to other 
people out of
     hand." - DM

     "Fundies can only be secure in their faith when everybody 
agrees with
     their idiotic notions; therefore they feel impelled to convert 
whom they
     can and shoot the rest in the back." - DM

     "It isn't all that bad: they are only required to love their 
neighbor "as
     themselves". Given the degree of self-loathing we see 
demonstrated by

     christians around here (if it were not for the existence of 
god, I would
     be committing murder, arson and rape on a daily basis), they 
probably
     already love their neighbors as they do themselves without 
working up a
     sweat.  That love, however, may leave something to be 
desired." - DM

     "Who ignores the likes of Paul Hill, a committed Christian 
"trying to
     make a difference"?  Who ignores the various "Family" groups 
in Colorado
     and Oregon, busy trying to drum homosexuals out of the human 
race?  They
     are certainly "trying to make a difference."Who ignores the 
Christians in
     Kentucky who check `naughty' books out of the library and do 
not return
     them?  Who can deny that they are "trying to make a 
difference." Who
     ignores the friendly folks in Virginia, overwhelmingly 
Christians, who
     seek to place an admitted felon and perjurer, Oliver North, in 
the U.S.
     Senate where he can work his magic on all of us?  Are they not 
"trying to
     make a difference." Who ignores the "stealth" candidates in 
California,
     who work at getting elected to school boards by concealing their
     Christian agenda by evasion, silence or outright lying, so 
that they can
     impose that agenda on the young from a position of power.  
They, too, are
     "trying to make a difference." I only wish we COULD ignore the 
Christians
     "trying to make a difference," but we dare not turn our backs 
on the vile
     bastards." - DM

     "Maggie's echo bombs of religious tracts probably violates the 
copyright
     of  some fundy without giving such credit, but piss on 
him--it's only a
     fundy, after all." - DM

     "It has long been my impression that most of you buzzards 
would not
     bother to be christians if you did not suppose that heaven was 
composed
     of bleacher seats facing hell." - DM

     "But in India, something else is going on.  Females are not 
valued.  Only
     males are.  Wanna bet that when those boys end up competing 
for the only
     unmarried girl in town that HER value won't soar?  And theirs, 
at least
     so far as the gene pool is concerned, will drop.  Such 
gender-specific
     abortion is an excellent way to reduce the overall population, 
but it
     doesn't really begin to operate until the next generation." - DM

     "I do not expect, of course, that my ridicule will make fundies
     think--they appear to be pretty well proof against that 
horror--but it
     may have that effect on the real audience around here, the 
silent lurkers
     who have not yet given their minds over to the Swaggarts, 
Robertsons and
     Falwells." - DM

     "Certainly, and than am I: however, he specified "fundemental 
Christian",
     which DOES rather drain the pool of available intellect." -DM

     "Well for all of you who criticize Mr.  Robertson, I can say 
this.  Judge
     yourself before judging others.  You might make fun of us 
fundies now,
     but we are mobilizing spiritually, politically, and to what 
worries you
     the most financially.  We Christians are sick and tired of 
being accused
     of wrongdoing and ridiculed.  Lets face it, there are more of 
us than
     you.  And we intend to take back the Government that 
Christians founded.
     And cut off your grants that supply some of you with the money 
to wage
     war on us.  Organizations like the Christian Coalition scare 
you and
     thats good cause  We are going to put you and the evolutionist 
garbage
     you try to push on us on the run." - Joe Savelli [And you 
didn't believe
     him -CH]

     "Okay.  I'll retract the story about the man who was arrested 
for praying
     in the Florida restaurant.  But only because you and others 
are hung up
     on it.  This should clear the way for what I really want to 
prove.  That
     is the Historicity of Jesus.  So, Robert, you have my 
retraction for what
     it's   worth.  (Not that it's a lie.)" - JS

     "Oh well with homosexuals pounding on church doors and 
screaming to the
     occupants "we want your children, we want your children".  It 
just proves
     my point that homosexuality is evil.  Not to mention that it 
spreads
     disease...." - JS

     "Christian Coalitions membership in 1992 300,000.  In 1993 
900,000 and
     still growing.  We are going to invade all political and 
educational
     institutions, take them back from the liberal/socialist 
invaders." -JS

     "Libralism and humanism IS evil.  Both are destined to fail" -JS

     "I see now why Jesus said the Jews' father is the devil.  
Beware!  The
     Jew is the antichrist." - Keith Baxter / Larry Rollins / 
Gerald Norris /
     Jack Roberts / Frank Waring

     "If 'Jesus' does come to Earth- is it the first coming (as per 
Jewish
     tradition), second (Xian), or third (Mormon)?  I wonder- and I 
hope he
     lands feet first on ALL televangelists.  (Preying on fear 
sickens me!!!)"
     - Rachael Roth

     "Take that piece of paranoid drivel and, print it out, soak it 
in
     gasoline,   then shove it up your ass and light it.  Have a 
nice day,
     motherfucker." -  C. J. Henshaw

     "What you call senseless blathering is actually a very fun 
past time for
     those of us who like shoving lit fireworks up fundies' 
assholes." -
     Coridon Henshaw

     "Matt, do you suppose incest is why we have fundamentalists?" 
- Liz
     Saunders

     "We already have the necessary proof - the Scriptures.  God 
has already
     told us what happened.  Why do we need further proof?" - Derek 
Williams

     "What scares the shit out of me is that here in southern 
Tennessee (and
     probably many other areas) the psychological clinics are LINKING
     religious  beliefs and psychological well-being.  That's kind 
of like
     giving someone AIDS to cure sexual dysfunction." - Tim Bennett

     "EH> [...] Btw, change your initials.  they make you look 
canadian." -
     Martin Goldberg

     "Texas is much better than the State of the Perpetually Dead 
Elvis.
     Jesus, the smell is atrocious.  Did something die up there?" - 
MG

     "The Theory of Gravity does not address these either.  Am I to 
believe
     that my computer will soon head for the ceiling?" - MG

     "i read this.  It is full of nice stories, emotional bullshit, 
and a host
     of other devices that might fool a very stupid person.  It is 
not,
     however, evidence." - MG

     "See you in Hell....  (I won't be there, but I'll be able to 
see YOU
     there.)" - Doug Brewer

     "Welfare is cancelled, all women come home (except single 
women who
     obviously must support themselves somehow.) What happens?  1) A
     tremendous amount of tax money is freed up.  2) Men fill the 
now vacant
     positions, thus reducing or possibly eliminating unemployment. 
 3)
     Children have one parent home all the time; thus they are 
raised by their
     parents instead of daycare.  I think the advantages of this 
are obvious.
     In contrast, look at what we have instead...." - DB

     "You do not understand the essence of Satan, or of Satanism.  
You do not
     have to worship Satan to be a Satanist.  Satanists believe 
that everyone
     is their own God.  You need only worship yourself, and you are 
practicing
     Satanism." -DB

     "First of all, innocence is subjective.  Who is truly 
innocent?  Just a
     question...  Second, anyone who ever died at God's hand (in 
the Bible)
     died  for a reason.  Third, Christians view death as a 
beginning, not an
     end.  So, to die (say in a city that was destroyed by God's 
judgement)
     wouldn't pose that big a problem for me.  There isn't that 
much worth
     hanging around here for, anyway." -DB

     "Modern technology is merely evidence that h. sapiens sapiens 
is not all
     irrevocably stupid and that progress is made in spite of our 
most earnest
     efforts to forestall it at times." - Preston Simpson

     "Perhaps if you actually bothered to read literature rather 
than burn it,
     you would have seen them." - PS

     "I hear the president is naming you Secretary of the 
Inferior." - PS

     "Go try Stevie Winter's Wholly Bible echo.  I'm sure you'd get 
a kick out
     of it." - PS

     "Christian [Miller], you are the LAST person who needs to be 
giving me
     advice on how I should go about living with myself.  You are a 
disgrace to
     your god, your religion, your species, your family, and 
yourself.  I find
     you to be a repugnant and worthless human being--and I write 
all of this
     with not a single trace of anger." - PS

     "So, you dislike anyone with differing political beliefs? Not 
surprising;
     you did admit that you were conservative, after all." - PS

     "Dear God: you're making a horrible mess of things. Please 
abdicate and
     allow the election of a worthy successor." - PS

     "There's no convincing a mind that is not only closed but has 
been
     bricked over and had steel plate welded in place over it." - PS

     "Your god seems to fear questioning, and the authority figures 
in your
     religion discourage questioning far more than they encourage 
it. Such is
     a definite sign of an oppressive and dangerous organization." 
- PS

     "If you take two lions and two sheep aboard the ark, it's a 
cinch bet
     that the lions will probably eat the sheep or some other 
herbivore upon
     release." - PS

     "You've basically said to the world "I don't understand why 
some things
     happen, so God must have done it!" That's silly.  If you don't 
know why
     something happened, try to find out.  If you can't, leave it 
at that and
     go on with your life." -PS

     "I think you're full of shit.  I wasn't in it for gain.  I was 
in it
     because I believed.  I was in it because I had faith.  And 
when my faith
     was shaken to its foundation, nobody came to help, nobody 
answered my
     prayers, nothing.  Your God, if he exists, is the most callous 
deity to
     ever be worshipped, bar none.  And his followers exemplify this
     beautifully." - PS

     "We've explained it to you at least three times, in clear 
English. You
     claimed a degree in English; I suggest that you return to the 
institution
     that granted it and demand a refund, because it's for damned 
sure that
     you didn't learn anything there." - PS

     "How about people who just don't care? Bipolar thinking is 
ridiculous
     when applied in this fashion to humanity, since life is not 
always a
     clear-cut case of "us" against "them." Such thinking breeds 
paranoia,
     distrust, animosity, and all sorts of unharmonious things. 
What would
     your god think of that?" - PS

     "`In God we trust' - David Koresh" - Sunjester
     [OBSOLETE]

     "Put THAT in your Bible and smoke it." - Stephen Green

     "I find it strangely pleasing to know my thoughts and actions 
cause you
     so much grief." - SG

     "Sex education classes in our public schools are promoting 
incest." -
     Jimmy Swaggart

     "Describe, if you will, what kind of phony God you would come 
up with if
     you were to create a phony God and start your own religion.  
Ask yourself
     what kind of traits you'd *have* to give it.  Visible or 
invisible?  etc.
     Then, compare the result to the popular Christian God." - Mike 
Prather

     "The problem is that some folks are so open minded that their 
brains fall
     out.  Then some really bizaare ideas get stuffed into the 
opening, at
     which time they slam and bolt the barn door after the horse 
has run off,
     and never let anything else in or out.  Then they come to 
Holysmoke and
     start posting stuff about universal minds thinking with pilot 
waves and
     dead presidents rising and orgasmic saviors and denying 
sunlight and
     quoting winos like Hoyle and Schroeder." - "Hector Plasmic"

     "He just reinterprets whatever's at hand to fit what he wants 
it to say,
     carefully discarding any bits that get in the way as 
"parables" and then
     reinterpreting them, too.  Finally, ignore any more logical 
explanations
     and conflicting facts, and -- voila -- instant fundy, just add 
flood
     water and bake in hell to taste." - HP

     "It's laughable, really.  The fundies claim "gods exist!"  
When you ask
     them if they have any evidence that gods exist, they 
eventually get
     around to saying "no, but you can _sense_ that gods exist."  
When you ask
     them for evidence for that statement, you usually get "I just 
know it."
     And when you ask them how it is they "just know" you usually 
get "you can
     _sense_ that gods exist."" - HP

     "I'm sorry, Mikey, did you run across some evidence that 
xtianity is
     true?  Would you mind sharing it with us?  Or are you just 
full of shit
     as usual?" - HP

     "Time:  Here and now.  Surviving members of David Koresh's 
Branch
     Davidians report seeing David the Koresh, Lamb of God, alive and
     preaching.  They're widely regarded as nuts.  The Enquirer and 
similar
     yellow tabloids pick up the tale and begin printing stories 
about people
     seeing the Koresh hither and yon performing miracles.  The 
stories are
     widely regarded as garbage -- except for a few ignorant souls 
who also
     believe Elvis and JFK are still running around.  A few years 
pass, the
     stories of Koresh sightings still crop up from time to time.  
Henry
     Kissinger has died, and John Prewett committed suicide rather 
than admit
     he was a false prophet.  The Branch Davidians stick to their 
story,
     saying that the Koresh has ascended to heaven to be with God.  
They pick
     up followers.  The church grows slowly but steadily. People 
still think
     they're nuts, but a few eyebrows are being raised. The 
fundamentalist
     xtian televangelists begin screaming about false prophets and 
followers
     of the devil when they mention the Koreshians.  A few more 
years pass.
     Most of the Branch Davidians have died of old age.  Their 
followers,
     still growing, set down the tales they've been told about the 
Koresh's
     sacrificial death to atone for the sins of mankind and 
subsequent
     resurrection and ascension to heaven and begin calling 
themselves
     Koreshians.  A prominent televangelist who'd been preaching 
against the
     Koreshians is in an automobile accident; when he recovers, he 
claims to
     have seen the Koresh and been converted (saved).  He tours the 
country
     preaching at Koreshian churches, howls his message over the 
airwaves.
     Membership in the Church of Koresh jumps sharply as many 
people leave the
     fundamentalist churches to become Koreshians.  A few more 
years pass.
     The televangelist, now an old man, is assassinated.  
Membership again
     jumps sharply, spurred by his martyrdom.  The stories set down 
years
     before are assembled and appended to the King James bible 
(oddly, written
     using "thee" and "thou"s).  The stories contain contradictions 
and
     obvious fallacies, but  they're accepted as dogma by the 
Koreshians, who
     interpret over them and/or call them "proof of the truth of the
     writings."  Approximately two thousand years pass -- it's 1995 
AK (After
     Koresh).  The Koreshian religion is held, at least 
superficially, by
     1/3rd of the world's 10 billion population (there'd be a lot 
more people,
     but the Koreshians exterminated a lot of heretics and 
unbelievers over a
     thousand years before during the Second Dark Age). Mikey Hardy's
     descendant says, in a room full of atheists, "And we have 
evidence that
     David Koresh rose from the dead."  Most everyone present 
considers him a
     nut, and farts in his general direction.  Mikey's descendant 
screams 'IS
     NOT!'" - HP

     "Moreover, according to the fundies here, we're guilty until 
"saved." So,
     to extend Kenny's "breaking the law" analogy, it'd need to be 
a law
     against breathing, or some other activity that humans can't 
help doing.
     In fact, I offer this analogy which seems much to the point:  
A king
     declared that anyone breathing air not bought from the king's 
air
     bottling  plant would be thrown into the dungeon and tortured 
forever.
     The king offered simple terms -- all you had to do to pay for 
your
     bottles of air  was fall to your knees, grovel a bit, and 
thank the king
     for giving you air (the king had previously allowed the 
president of the
     air bottling  plant to rape and kill his daughter the princess 
to pay the
     price for everyone's air, but actually she wore a full-body 
condom and
     faked her death so she suffered very little if at all).  Now, 
an atheist
     might say that the king was full of shit and was damning his 
people by
     the thousands for no reason at all, but a theist might say 
that the
     people were damning themselves by refusing to partake in the 
king's
     almost-freely-given gift of a bottle of air." - HP

     "We don't hate you, little fundy.  We feel sorry for you." -HP

     "Occam's Razor cut your foot off again." -HP

     "Now go shoot yourself.  For Christ or not, it doesn't matter. 
 Don't
     forget to repent first." -HP

     "What an assinine, baseless assertion.  Just because Mikey has 
no
     evidence,  you must be intentionally refusing to believe him." 
-HP

     "Are you allergic to the truth or something, Mikey?" -HP

     "Fundy motto:  no sense makes sense." -HP

     "Yep.  I agree.  All bibles should be put under rocks.  Big 
rocks.  In
     the  ocean.  On another planet." - Brian C. Kolacy

     "Women do have a place in God's kingdom...BELOW that of men." 
- Jeff
     Pruett

     "Back to the talking snakes and Adam & Eve again, eh Jeff?  
The entire
     story is pure mythology as you well know but won't admit.  It 
has no more
     validity than the myths about Zeus, Hercules or Mithras."  - 
John
     Musslewhite

     "So why don't you guys kill yourselves and get the hell outta 
our hair?"
     - David Worrell

     "What is with the fundy fascination with that [Forest Gump] 
movie?  Do
     they identify with the main character?" - DW

     "*Anybody* [Bosnian Serbs] that makes a habit of shelling 
civilian
     population centers at random is *not* interested in peace.  
The only way
     to make them stop is to wipe them from the face of the Earth." 
- DW

     "At the very least, we should sell (or "loan") the Bosnians
     [Muslims/Croats] good counter-battery radar and some MLRSes.  
Everytime
     the Serbs fired anything bigger than a rocket-launched 
grenade, their
     position would be enveloped by thousands of bomblets.  After a 
while,
     they'd loose their fascination with artillery." - DW

     "I'm beginning to think Mormon churches have brain vacuums 
install in the
     pews.  The congregation comes in, sits down, and tubes are 
inserted up
     their asses.  Any unnecessary brain matter is then sucked out 
while they
     listen rapturously to the sermon." - DW

     "So you feel that it is our *duty* to bash gays in order to 
prevent
     `experimentation'?  You disgust me.  Maybe we should beat the 
hell out of
     Christians in order to prevent people from experimenting with
     Christianity?" - DW

     "I'm prejudiced against bigots, fascists, tyrants, and idiots. 
 It just
     so happens that many Christians fall into one or more of these
     categories." - DW

     "I am all too willing to believe that you're just as stupid as 
you come
     across on this echo." - DW

     "Do you take groveling lessons or does it come naturally to 
you?" - DW

     "Atheism is MORALLY BANKRUPT because, as Sartre and Nietzsche 
have
     demonstrated, without God as the universal reference point to 
distinguish
     good from evil, there are no moral absolutes.  Man becomes the 
measure of
     all things, including his own ethics and morality." - Roger 
Griffith

     "I agree with you there legislating faith is like trying to 
legislate
     agains racism it sounds nice but it just don't work..." - 
Robert Rice

     "God is Powerful...NO other so-called "GOD" could stand one 
chance
     against My Powerful God....Bite me All you LOw-Life 
Non-Christians!!" -
     Jason Bridges

     "What I'm doing is typing truth.  It is simple to ridicule and 
ask for
     evidence of something someone does not believe, I could take 
the same
     tact.  You cannot prove any theory, that's why they are known as
     theories.  What you offer is not debate.  Look the word up in 
the
     dictionary.  I am here to say JESUS SAVES." - David Lewellyn

     "I do not hate anyone.  I recognize homosexuality for what it 
is.  It is
     an illness and depravity.  At one time this was recognized as 
truth but
     as  homosexuals were thrust into the public eye by the AIDS 
epidemic and
     the popular figures who came out of the closet, and the 
liberal climate
     created by the press, homosexuality was labeled an 
"alternative life
     style".  It is "popularly believed" that a flight attendant 
from Canada
     introduced AIDS into the U.S.  According to researchers he had 
sex with
     several dozen men.  Other cases of AIDS did not show up until 
later among
     the non homosexual populace." -DL

     "No gay person could ever reproduce unless he were straight in 
some way."
     - Ralph "The sky is blue!" Jansen

     "Why can evolution be FACT when there is absolutely NOTHING 
backing it
     up? ... (Because this is science and in science there is no 
such thing as
     a fact.)" - RJ

     "If there is, then by definition evolution is most highly 
improbable
     since the each species is *supposed* to die off after it 
evolves." -RJ

     "As for 6000 years, there is quite a bit of evidence that 
supports that
     idea.  So, maybe he really isn't that stupid.  Maybe he knows 
something
     you don't." -RJ

     "Some group has said that they actually discovered the ark, 
and that NASA
     has gotten behind them on this 100%...  Don't you dare quote 
me on
     that..." -RJ

     "I made a report to the class on Creation Vs. Evolution . . . 
You know
     who won . . . Creation . . . evlution is too complicated!!!" - 
Russ
     Offord [elipses in original]

     "The magnetic field. Solid hydrogen is a superconductor, and 
Earth's
     magnetic field continues to wane -- back then it would have 
been many,
     many times  stronger. And so on." - Leon Brooks

     "You have no sense of humor. Typical atheist faire. Learn to 
live with it
     (your dark dismal world, that is, humorless, Godless, 
hellbound schnook)"
     - John Prewett

     "May Jesus continue to let you live.  Long enough to get your 
head out of
     your ass." -JP

     "This echo is going to be used to greatly spread faith in 
Christ.  There
     are going to be some fanatic HolySmoke anti-Christers that are 
going to
     be transformed into rabid Christers. - JP

     "I predict / prophecy in Jesus name that: John F. Kennedy will 
publicly
     reappear, amaze the world, take world power, and is in fact 
the "beast"
     of the Revelation." - JP

     "Some HolySmokers are putting God on trial. Therefore God 
exist." - JP

     "`god' _does_ exist. Because the rules of physics always stay 
the same."
     - Matt Unterberg

     "I'm easily amused, just give me a gun and a field full of
     fundamentalists" - Unknown

     "(sorry about that - this is my blatant attempt to get a quote 
in the
     HOLYSMOKE.FAQ) <g>" - Mike Perry

     "Actually, it is, Kelsey. Theistic evolution is not the same as
     atheistic-materialistic evolution. Yet, for some reason, you 
choose to
     use theistic evolution as a rebuttal to my statement that 
"natural
     atheistic-materialistic macro-evolution is dependant on life 
starting via
     a naturalistic-atheistic-materialistic mechanism for biochemical
     evolution." I'll explain the difference to you.  
Atheistic-materialistic
     evolution is characterized by the belief that there is no 
Creator G-d,
     that all that we observe in the universe is the result of the 
laws of
     nature acting on matter and energy, plus random and/or chance 
encounters
     of matter/energy, over a period of approximately 11-14 Billion 
years.  In
     order for Atheistic-materialistic evolution to be true, each 
stage of the
     evolution of the universe (From the origin of the Big Bang, to 
the origin
     of particles, to the origin of stars and planets, to the 
origin of life
     from non-life, to the origin of the species) must have 
developed via the
     laws of nature acting on matter and energy, plus opportune 
random
     encounters of matter/energy, over a period of approximately 
11-14 Billion
     years. If any any one of these stages we can demonstrate that 
just one of
     these steps could not have occurred in this manner, then we have
     disproved Atheistic-materialistic evolution. The Atheist world 
view falls
     apart." - Arthur Biele

     "Well, I'm 23, though I've had people mistake me for 30. It's 
my aura of
     wisdom and maturity, not my receding hairline.  Really it is." 
- Aaron
     Boyden

     "No.  However, there is life before death.  It probably 
deserves more of
     your attention than you've been giving it." -AB

     "And you say I'm in a "death cult"?? "Mass starvation"?? Point 
"*.666"?
     You can't use "666", your an atheist, you don't believe in 
those things,
     remember?? Remember, the Bible isn't true, therefore the 
Anti-christ and
     his number 666 is a myth and doesn't exist? For someone who 
doesn't
     believe the Bible, you sure model yourself and your symbols 
after what's
     in it, even if it's the "bad guys". Of course the "bad guys" 
don't exist
     if the Bible isn't true." - Phillip Windell

     "You see, without God, a person can become good, or 
noteworthy, or
     famous, or do good things such as heal the sick, teach the 
ignorant,
     protect the young, and all for the simplest reasons or no 
reason at all
     other than the personal happiness derived from such actions.  
However, if
     there _is_ a God, then there is no reason to become a doctor, 
as God
     either wants that person sick or God would cure him.  There is 
no reason
     to teach the ignorant, as with a snap of the fingers, God 
could impart
     any degree of knowledge or wisdom to that person and since 
that hasn't

     happened, God must want that person ignorant.  If God does 
exist, there
     is absolutely no reason whatsoever to do anything for anyone.  
Anything
     you could do to help someone is meaningless as God could help 
them so
     much better if He wanted them to be helped.   Anything you 
could do to
     better yourself becomes pointless as God could have done it 
for you if He
     wanted you to be a better person.   Indeed, if God did exist, 
one could
     only do one of two things: either totally ignore God and any 
of His
     actions, or become a totally mindless slave to God's word.  
Either way,
     the result is the same: complete meaninglessness to anything and
     everything one does." - Kelsey Bjarnason

     "Show me exactly which Israelis were brought to Israel by God, 
as opposed
     to the local airlines.  Next." - KB

     "You seem to be very hot on what the Bible says; I find it 
hard to
     believe that anyone who cannot write a simple sentence 
correctly is
     actually capable of ascertaining the deeper meanings of 
anything more
     complex than a matchbook cover." - KB

     "One might look at how the Christians fare in here.  Do you 
have any idea
     how often we have one come in and the first thing they do is 
start
     whining about the language in here?  How would you like it if 
someone
     went to your house and told you how to speak there?  Of 
course, the next
     step for the average Christian here is to start posting all 
the "great
     truths" which "prove God"; again, without having bothered to 
read enough
     mail to realize that _every_ argument they propose has been 
done to death
     already.  No, they insist upon believing that in all of human 
history,
     they and they alone have the final proof of God.  As often as 
not, the
     next stage is when they start defining terms to suit 
themseleves.
     "Atheism" means "anti-God".  "Evolution" involves the Big 
Bang.  And of
     course, they almost invariably end up resorting to such  
silliness as
     telling us that we "hate God" because we fear "it might be 
true" or that
     "deep in our hearts we know God is real".  The point here is 
this: the
     Christians are treated with the respect they earn.  For most, 
this means
     treating them like a spoiled and slightly retarded 
six-year-old.  For the
     odd few, it means calm and rational discussion.  It is 
_entirely_ up to
     the Christian how he is treated in HolySmoke." - KB

     "You go out of your way to insist that atheism is a religion, 
which can
     be for no purpose but to inflict your personal mindset on 
those who are
     not so afflicted." - KB

     "If you believe it, you don't know it.  If  you know it, you 
don't need
     to believe it.  Since you obviously haven't a clue one way or 
the other,
     why should anyone listen to what you say?" - KB

     "As another opined, isn't it odd that miracles no longer 
happen now that
     we have the technology to record them?" - KB

     "Okay, fine.  But how much of it is "God's truth", and how 
much is mere
     fairy tale or absolute bulltwaddle?  Was there really a global 
flood?
     No?  Then is the Bible is lying to us, or is God?  Oh, there 
was a global
     flood?  Then the lack of supporting evidence means that God is 
lying to
     us, by intentionally destroying or hiding that evidence, 
right?  Hello?"
     - KB

     "They are Christians of Borg, they have been assimilated.  
They will
     speak no opinions of their own, only those approved by the 
Christian Borg
     Collective. To think for oneself is to risk eternal 
punishment." - Thomas
     Mccullock

     "No shit, Sherlock. But that isn't the case, and there are 
plenty (too
     many) heterosexual breeders in this world that are keeping 
this planet
     (over)populated. What does it matter if a small percentage of 
the world's
     population isn't reproducing? Goat knows we don't need any 
more people
     breeding like rabbits in this world..." - Drew Webber

     "Remember the man arrested in the Florida restaurant? He was 
praying that
     his noodles would stop multiplying, but a Satan-powered JFK 
flew out of
     the stratosphere on a bear that couldn't catch fish and 
arrested him.
     MISTER Kissinger stood on a milk crate of flaming foetuses and 
tried to
     prove it with every opening bud, but the solid hydrogen 
mentioned in Luke
     16:31 destroyed his hard disk fourteen days later and erased 
the Culinary
     History of Aviation.  He goes on trial December 1." - Jason 
Rosendale

     "First off I am not religious, I am a Christian. Second I did 
not give up
     on it, I refused to take part in a mock trail of God." - 
Kenneth Mcabee

     "What your missing David, is the most bible believing 
Christains do not
     question God. Why does he require blood for the forgiveness of 
sin? What
     does it matter? It does, the bible says it, we believe it." - KM

     "You still haven'g gotten have you? Someone who believes in 
the Bible
     also  believes that you do not need evidence, but rather 
faith." - KM

     "First if the Christians were doing thier job right noone 
would die never
     hearing the "Good News". If they did not hearing then by my 
bible I have
     to  say that they are condemned. And that we the Christians 
did not do as
     we were commanded." - KM

     "you a answer on your question simply due to the fact that I 
am not God,
     and do not have the capability to punish my kids for eternity. 
I cannot
     give you an answer, I do not know what I would do if I could 
punish them
     for eternity." - KM

     "Just because I am willing to debate Christianity does not 
mean that I am
     here to learn any truth contrary to my beliefs." - KM

     "Let me put it this way, even if I agreed with your statement 
that God is
     an unrepentant barbarian, he is still God. I still have the 
choice to
     make, either I believe in him and go to heaven, or I don't and 
go to
     hell.  With those two choice, I don't care if God is the most 
hateful
     thing ever created, I still would not want to go to hell, and 
I would
     still believe in him." - KM

     "I will not play D&D anymore because of the dieties and 
demigods. I do
     however keep the game around because from time to time I need 
information
     out of them to prove a point. I will play doom and other games 
like that
     because to me I'm just killing bytes on the computer, and that 
is really
     not killing. Nor does it make me want to kill, I see it as it 
was made, a
     contest to be one or lost.  Besides, what could be bad about 
blowing away
     demons?" - KM

     "God will be coming soon. He will tryumph over any gods that 
other people
     have made. Like the god of money...etc. In the end you will be 
judged by
     him. He will make you accountable for every thing you did." - 
Alex Sousa

     "You can't blame them.  They can't think.  They are a result 
of a
     mechanistic organization of matter.  They don't have thoughts 
any more
     than a computer has thoughts.  Their "thoughts" are nothing but
     mechanistic processes.  Hmmm, they probably don't even have 
conciseness."
     - Andrew Cummins, refering to non-Christians.

     "Creationists do not deny any directly observed phenomena." - AC

     "Hitler believed in big government.  Hitler didn't believe 
that human
     life had inherent value, thus he supported such things as 
abortion.
     Considering many factors, Hitler seems a lot like a modern 
American
     liberal." - AC

     "Don't be a liberal dupe.  Even most heterosexuals with AIDS 
'earned'
     it... but it's still is a fag disease." - AC[ellipse in 
original]

     "Then maybe the poor should either avoid being poor or avoid 
behaving in
     a way that makes them feel a need to avoid responsibility with 
something
     they can't afford." - AC

     "She prayed and asked (*demanded* - she's a tough lady) for 
the life of
     this little one back.  After 15 minutes or so a crowd was 
gathered (you
     can picture it) and she saw some police out of the corner of 
her eye
     starting to approach.  But the people pressed around her so, 
that the
     police couldn't get through.  After a half hour or more of 
continuing to
     pray the baby gave a sneeze and came back to life." - Peter 
Sawyer

     "That's a lot better than denying the Truth just because 
you're afraid of
     it.  The more I read from you and the others like you in this 
echo, the
     more I know my faith is true. Thanks." - Tony Grisier

     "Didn't you know that *we* are Satan?" - Gord Magill

     "I know this is only second hand, but our local TV news did a 
two or
     three part series on parents killing their own children.  The 
incident in
     Union was not as isolated as we would like to think and it may 
be a good
     working hypothosis.  I don't remember the statistics that they 
gave, but
     the point was that the rate has been on a marked increase, 
beginning in
     the mid 70s.  Guess when Roe v. Wade came down.  The news 
didn't provide
     the corellation, history did.  Now, I realize that its easy to 
lie with
     statistics.  Even when you have a corellation, that doesn't 
prove a
     hypthosis, it merely supports it.  If I can find the numbers 
I'll post
     them soy we don't have to go on just my remembrance of the 
local news." -

     David Hatfield

     "I have never accepted the Ideal personally that gays have any 
rights and
     i  never will." - Don Ward

     "What percenatge of Muslems worship Islam?" - DW

     "Well the hemophiliacs, are mostly drug abusers who will sell 
their body
     or blood for their addiction, or while hyped up they share 
needles to
     get-off. What would you expect from a drug addict?" - DW

     "Heres my judgment ,you are a desolate little old man who's 
afraid to
     leave your little xt/pc. I get on this "echo" because of  all 
the fools
     on it, but  you live on this "echo"." - DW

     "I think your under a lot of "STRESS". Maybe you need an 
_assistant
     moderator_, one that would make this _echo_ appeal to all 
types of
     people. Therefore I'll make a "kind" gesture of you letting me 
run this
     bias _echo_ for a month or so. So I can help you achieve a 
respectable
     "echo", for the good of all." - DW

     "Adults do not allow others to speak their own minds in any 
fashon they
     want, Ive not seen that anywhere.  Adults do let Children  ( 
somewhat)
     learn the language but it has appeared to me thru many of your 
post that
     you do have a good sense of language so I can only presume 
that you are
     very much an adult." - John Reynolds

     "... "How talk you, yes.  That, do we.  Idiot, fucking, you 
are.":  Yoda"
     - Tagline

     "Considering the Christian views on abortion and assisted 
suicide, my
     guess is that once you accept this "gift" of eternal life, you 
can never
     give it back. Seems like you might be making a mistake that 
could
     literally haunt you forever by accepting Jesus Christ as your 
personal
     lord and saviour, especially since Christians seem to think 
that just
     anything that is fun to do is a sin." - "Captain Fuck"/Dan 
Baldwin/"Dr.
     James Robertson"

     "Why feel the need to declare yourself a Christian, or a 
Buddhist, or a
     Pagan, Wiccan, Stargoatian, or what have you? What is wrong 
with just
     being yourself? One thing I do not belive is that any cosmic 
deity is
     going to send me to eternal suffering because I don't believe 
certain
     things. I just can't imagine anything intelligent enough to 
create life,
     if that is in fact the way it happened, having such primitive 
feelings
     about it. Besides, suffering is a relative thing. Stick my 
hand in a fire
     for one minute and I may scream in agony, but leave it in 
there for a
     hundred years and see if I give a shit, never mind a million 
years or
     infinity." -CF/DB/DJR

     "`Aboard ship take thou the SEED of life' I am refering to the 
SEED of
     all life of any species. Only one thing did NOAH need to take 
two of, on
     the ARK, of EVERY living creature that walked upon the EARTH, 
and would
     easily be able to do so with the technology of the -GODS-. 
Also buy
     taking the SEED of life of every living creature he could get 
two of each
     on that small ARK. The SEED of life being refered to is, 
GENES. The GENES
     of a male and female of every creature would have accomplished 
the task
     nicely, would it not? With this you no longer have an argument 
of not
     enough room to house two of every creature, food to feed them 
for more
     than 6 months, etc...." - Barry "Suspended Animation" Laminack

     "He will not be there for you.  If you have not accepted his 
lordship
     over  your life, then you are at war with him and he is at war 
with you.
     That is not to say that he is not willing to forgive, but to 
stand in the
     place of God's judgement is a fearful place to be.  What is 
right and
     wrong?  Where does the idea come from?  If you go by feelings, 
your
     feelings change from day to day.  Do your morals change from 
day to day?
     Without God there is no right and wrong.  There must be a 
reference point
     outside of yourself upon which to base your value judgements.  
What is
     your reference point?  Without one you are incapable of 
determining for
     yourself what is right and what is wrong." - Unknown fundi

     Any evidence I have would be meaningless, because your point 
of view
     would  prevent the obvious conclusion.  I cannot *prove* to 
you the
     existence of God just as you cannot prove to me the 
non-existence of God.
     God has proven himself to me through the power he has shown in 
changing
     my life.  Only the power of God can change a man's life and 
set him free
     from the burden of sin.  Not that any Christian will ever be 
sinless, but
     the assurance of knowing the the penalty for your sin has been 
erased
     changes your life completely.  I cannot prove to you the 
existence of
     God, but if you accept what he says about himself and about 
you in his
     Word the Bible, then everything makes complete sense." - 
Timothy Hartley

     "A recent court case acquitted Donald Napora of endangering 
the lives of
     the public by knowingly having unprotected anal intercourse 
(otherwise
     known as sodomy), while knowing he was HIV positive. Sodomy, 
once a crime
     against the state, is now not only tolerated and accepted, but 
actually
     promoted in many of our public school sex education programs, 
in spite of
     the fact that it is the leading cause of infection of the AIDS 
virus. For
     a society that is as safety conscious as any in the world, 
this is a
     gross contradiction. Does this bother you?" - Alan Kern

     "Christians envying Pagans and wiccans? There's nothing to 
envy. Your god
     was defeated by the blood of Jesus 2000 years ago, and he's 
only living
     on borrowed time. You're following a loser, the biggest one in 
history of
     the universe." - AK

     "Science/archeology have often, and still do change their 
conclusions as
     they continue to find new evidence." - AK

     "Is AIDS a plague sent by God to judge homosexuals?  "Likewise 
also the
     men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their 
lust for one
     another, men with men committing what is shameful, and 
recieving in
     themselves the penalty of their error which was due"Rom.1:27 
You don't
     have to be a brain surgeon to figure these things out. Why is 
it only the
     Christians who can discern the signs of the times? Because 
they have the
     mind of Christ, and unbelievers have only their own." - AK-47

     "And, BTW, if you'll read that bible you're always thumping, 
you'll find
     that Jesus was a liberal. He hung around with poor people and 
social
     outcasts, he helped the poor, he said that it's easier for a 
camel to go
     through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter 
heaven.
     But then again, you have your head so far up your ass that you 
don't
     notice these things." - Quentin Fai

     "I detect the pot calling the fridge black. If there's anyone 
who's been
     soundly disemboweled, it's you. You seem to be too stupid to 
notice,
     though." - QF

     "When Jesus comes again, and I believe it will be soon, there 
will be no
     need for Democrats, Republicans or political representatives 
whatsoever.
     Not only this, but the Constitution/Civil Rights Amendments 
and othersuch
     will be out of place as well.  For we who are his children 
will live
     under the rule of a true Theocracy. We will be his people, and 
he will be
     our God. And those who have chosen to reject God/Christ won't 
be around
     anymore to pester those who ARE God's chosen people (and I do 
not speak
     here of the Jewish nation)." - Tenna Draper

     "Loose your fuckin' quote box or I'll rip yer head off with my
     pitchfork." - Satan

     "No one on this earth is starving to death EXCEPT by choice and
     Lazyness." - Titus Ashbury

     "Why does the earth always take 24 hours to get around the 
sun?  Who
     controls this?" - Gary Hull

     "There is a Bibical principle that basically says that a 
Father who loves
     his children will discipline that Child.  I personally have 
not had to
     spank my children very often.  However this world if full of 
children and
     now adults that have not been disciplined.  We see the 
results, they do
     not know how to live at peace with one another.  They have no 
direction
     and purpose in their lives... In short the lack of discipline 
is a root
     problem many other social ills" - GH

     "All are Slaves to God.. some know it, some dont." - Pratap 
Derrick

     "...I do think that Christians are functionally illiterate or 
amoral.
     Why? Because if you read your own damn holy book, and were a 
decent
     person, you would reject it out of hand. Therefore, Christians 
(1) never
     read the Bible, (2) can't understand what they read, or (3) are
     indecent." - John McHenry

     "The thoughtless are rarely wordless." - Tagline

     Darwin of Borg: "Creationism is irrelevant.  Evolution is 
inevitable.
     Resistance is futile.  You will be assimilated." -  
honge@creighton.edu

     "Yes, even babies are born with aids. The innocent suffer all 
over the
     world along with the guilty. If you knew the Bible you would 
know why." -
     David Lewellyn

     "You christians are without a doubt the stupidest and, more
     importantly, the PETTYEST people on the face of the earth." - 
Unknown
     (From Usenet)

     "I have less tolerance for pagan women because they seem to 
particularly
     lack respect for men and thereby depart from God even further 
than do
     pagan men." - Jim Staal

     "While the lazy and the slow (for the most part) seem 
comfortable with
     literalism, the more intelligent theists are constantly 
performing mental
     gymnastics to maintain credibility for their beloved myths.  
They've
     formed an uneasy alliance between the space age and the stone 
age." - Rob
     Burcham

     "Do you now know why we don't eat pork. Its what distinguishes 
us from
     people like you. The flesh contains microbes that invades your 
brain
     cells and couses such twisting of the mind as one can see from 
the
     language used above. This is how the mind reacts to such 
desieses.  Some
     people get infected and some don't. I think David Rice and Sean
     McCullough are effected with the desiese too." - Shabeir Khan

                   _\/_
              .  /      \  .
              |\| (o)(o) |/|
      -------.OOOo--oo--oOOO.-------
     |      New World Order ID      |
     |           ID #666            |
     |      666 N Babylonian Dr     |
      ----------------Oooo.---------
            .oooO     (   )
            (   )      ) /
             \ (      (_/
              \_)
      - paul@terrabit.mn.org

     "now, I wash my hands of you since I have no further need nor 
desire to
     read the lying babblings of a twisted little fuckhead." - Karl 
Schneider

     "This seems to be a funny debate for a Religous Conference.  
Do y'all
     need prayin' for?  Perhaps you need a demon cast out?   Hmm?" 
- Clayton
     Davis

     "Jesus was taken down from the cross and rose from the grave 
on the third
     day.  His Spirit entered earth on the day of Pentacost.  That 
Spirit
     lives in me.  Jesus and I have the same identity, hence the name
     CHRISTAIN.  You may use whatever words you wish.  Saying them 
detracts
     not one whit from the truth.  And whenever we say it about you,
     namecalling is your response.  I am what God says I am.  Your 
believing
     he exists does not bother me.  But it gives you great grief.  
Your worst
     fear is that my faith is in things that are the truth.  Do not 
run from
     Jesus.  Run to Him.  He is the one who cares.  I could not 
care less
     about you." - CD

     "As for why you would fear homosexuals, here are some common 
reasons.  1.
     One is afraid of the prospect of enduring a sexual overture of 
a nature
     one finds repellent.  2.  One is afraid that homosexuality is 
a plot to
     destroy all decency and "family values".  3.  One is afraid 
that ones
     offspring might choose to go that way if given the option.  4. 
 One is
     afraid that oneself might choose to go that way if given the 
option.  5.
     One is afraid that giant flaming meteors might descend on 
one's head
     because of the behavior of one's neighbours.  6.  One is 
afraid that
     everyone might choose to abandon reproduction, leading to the 
extinction
     of the human race.  7.  One is afraid that people won't be 
willing choose
     one's virgin daughters over oneself when they feel like 
gang-raping
     somebody."- David Johnston

     "Sudden prayers make God jump." - Ivan Schaffel's origin line

     "For the last time: Omnipotence does not include the ability 
to do th[e]
     logically impossible." - Michael Hardly

     "I personally would prefer to see the human race go via 
nuclear war than
     by the takeover of homosexuality... then I wouldn't have to be 
witness to
     this erosion of our society that is now occuring." - George Pope

     "Famous last words of Jesus Christ: Father, beam me up." - 
Erik Harris

     "Skylab Died For Your Sins." - Paul Feonic

     "If ONE; yes One of the Non-believers has the faith of a 
mustard seed.
     He would wipe out their hunger!" - Jerry "cocksucker" Wilcox

     "Pat Robertson is no more a profit than I am." - J"C"W

     "So you are saying that EVERY human being that believes in the 
Bible are
     not thinkers?  I think not!" - J"C"W

     "I tried thinking before, and I almost fell into the same mess 
YOU are
     now in." - Joanna Amren

     "Dinosaur bones, Noah's ark - it WAS found, and there is a big 
cover-up
     concerning it... What other proof do you need?" - JA

     "How about the masses killed by the godless following the 
logical
     conclusions of atheism?" - Glen Davis

     "Clearly, anything that "demonstrably disagrees with reality" 
cannot be
     from God, and therefore should be discarded." - Rick Mcfarlane

     "You're too stupid to be a creationist." - Dave Horn

     "In Jesus Christ name I bind all evil sprits off of this echo 
NOW." -
      Steve Wallis

     "The stars are God's Angels," - SW

     "In Christ's name I can drink any deadly thing and it wont 
hurt me(it's
     about faith and trust)" - SW

     "Oh you!  You followers of sin!  Satan has you all under his 
control and
     the only salvation is through Jesus Christ!  Do YOU want to 
burn and
     suffer in hell?  Do you want to be fried to a crisp for 
eternity?
     Are you scared yet?  Good, because THAT is what's going to 
happen to you
     if you do not accept Jesus Christ into your heart and believe 
in the
     King James authorised version of the Bible!" - "Phill Mcrevis"

     "I would like to say that it is good that Jesus died for our 
sins and I am
     so glad he did!" - PM

     "You're doing it to yourself and don't even realize it.  Not 
only are you
     an asshole, you are an idiot.  And idiotic assholes are a dime 
a dozen on
     this planet.  You are hardly special, and your attempts at 
"intelligence"
     and "wit" are painful to anyone who is actually capable of 
such things.  I
     suggest you grow up.  Your attitude and statements here in the 
echo show
     that while you may be phsyically an adult, psychologically, 
you are a
     three year old." - Jack Butler to Fredric Rice

     "Pay attention, you cretinous idiot:  you asked for an 
example, and as
     my primary example of asshole atheists, I present Frederic 
Rice in all his
     glory.  Evidence?  Certainly.  The last six months of mail 
traffic from you
     is all the evidence I need, and thanks very much for providing 
so much of
     it." - JB to FR

     "You're a druid, and think trees are alive?" - Christian Miller

     "That would be due to your own ignorance and bigotry, and 
would certainly
     not be their fault.  OTOH, if I thought it would make you 
barf, slip, and
     fall off a ninety foot cliff, I'd kiss John Prewitt right on 
the lips and
     retrieve his tonsils with my tongue." - David Hilling to 
Christian Miller

     "He's not dead, but He died for you!" - Les Wilcox

     "noah was a real person in world history!, well God Sad the 
world was so
     bad & Sinful he wanted to start over..  well anyway he told 
his people
     that he would nevar do this agen..  Well this is not a hoax..  
my prof is
     the bible" - Kris OKelly

     "Since most of the working force today is comprised of 
children from the
     50s and 60s which are of the "brain-dead" generation which 
followed
     authority, how do you explain the success in this country?" - 
Maria
     Russell

Multi-quotes


     "Please show me ONE instance of a scientist especially one that
     specializes in the mechanisms of evolution that claims that 
evolution
     states that man descended from monkies." - Martin Goldberg

     "Maybe Creationists are descended from the same branch that

     produced monkeys rather than the one that produced the apes.

     After all, they do have a tale!" - John Musslewhite




     "Actuallym my twit filter is becoming quite a collection on my 
BBS :).
     Pretty soon, it will be narrowed down to just the Christian's 
in here and
     no others will get through." - Unknown

     "Self-explanatory.  This is who will run your world unless you 
are
     vigilant.  These are the people that must never have a 
moment's peace,
     bcause the world will never have peace as long as even ONE of 
these human
     maggots remain extant on this earth.

     People wonder why folks like Fred, Martry, Sean and I (among 
several
     others) feel the need for bilious invective.  That which you 
read at the
     top of this post is what evil is, in case Jesse still needs 
his definition
     supplied." - Robert Jackson




     "She doesn't behave like a homosexual male.  She behave like a 
WOMAN.  The
     homosexual male behaves like a woman; not the other way 
around.  Besides,
     she's anotomically correct for acting like a woman." - 
Christian Miller

     "So a=b but b<>a?  You're so fucking stupid you don't even 
realize you're
     stupid." - Karl Schneider




     "If matter doesn't exist, what kills you at the bottom?" - 
Unknown

     "If it is not matter, then most likely it is mind" - Lee 
Woofenden

     "ROFL!  Lee, what's your brain made of?  Matter, perhaps?  
:-)" - "Hector
      Plasmic"

     "I see that Lee's at it again...." - Dan Ceppa

     "And before you start telling us the mind doesn't come from 
the brain,
     would you care to remove your brain _before_ telling us?  
Should be no
     problem if your mind is _not_ your brain, after all.  Just 
another little
     test that you, too, can perform in your own home town." - HP

     "That must be Hector's Experiment, part II, for those that are 
stupid
     enough to perform part one and perhaps actually survive the 
first
     experiment." - DC




     "Also consider all the diseases that go along with it from 
HepB to
     Aids...I know there are diseases that Heterosexuals have as 
well but
     incidences are higher with Homosexual.  REF: Center for 
Disease Control" -
     Richard Morris

     "Bullshit.  I suggest you call the CDC and get some up to date
     information.  The percent rate of new AIDS infections is 
higher in
     heterosexuals than it is in homosexuals." - David Worrell

     "duh!  so what's your point?  My conclusion still stands.  
Incidences are
     'still' higher in homosexuals then heterosexuals.  I'm not 
speaking of
     just new cases." - RM




     "Did you forget that the world is round and that I am both 
east and west
     of you at this very moment?" - Ryan Shaw

     "No I didn't - did you forget that the end of straight lines 
never meet?
     Sort of a small rule of geometry....  For a further 
examination" - Glen
     Buckley




     "I have faith.  That's all I need." - Christian Miller

     "If faith was all you needed for anything, then you could live 
in
     Antarctica sans clothing or food.  Do so." - Preston Simpson




     "But Hitler did NOT decide to be a Christian.  He was a Roman 
Catholic
     Jew.  One cannot be a Christian and a Roman Catholic.  You 
have just
     eliminated faith.  Hitler made the wrong decision.  (Several 
in fact)." -
     Anthony Grigor-Scott

     "Remember, it's spelled "Anthony Grigor-Scott".  There's a
     hyphen between the last two names; the space, as you may know,
     is between his ears." - Robert Jackson




     "You gotta be a troll." - Kevin D. Mckenzie

     "What do you mean?  A troll is a very ugly monster that lives 
under
     bridges and tolls people to cross.  I don't think I am a 
troll.  You
     probably said that because you don't have Jesus in your heart. 
 That's
     okay because I can understand that then.  Jesus saves.  And 
you can be
     next." - Phill Mcrevis




     "God sends no one to Hell." - Christian Miller

     "I refuse to go to hell.  What's going to happen to me?" - 
David Worrell

     "What do I care?  How will you stop God the Father from 
sending you there?
     I can see it now: A little five year old brat not wanting to 
go to school,
     fighting his 6ft Dad.  Yeah, you'll stop God." - CM




     "You fucking moron." - Michael "Mikey Hardly" Hardy

     "Sugar coating scrape off on the wrong side of the bed this 
morning,
     Mikey?  :-)" - "Hector Plasmic"




     "Then, while you're at it, ask him how many non-theists have 
given him any
     flak over his homosexuality." - Unknown

     "One.  (Matt Giwer)" - Scot Bear

     "Were it not for me you would not be justified." - Unknown

     "Right----or left margin?" - Scot Bear

     "Right.  Far right...very marginal. <G>" - Robert Jackson




     "Damn - what bore does one use when hunting gods?  I've seen 
.700 elephant
     guns, so I can only assume that a god gun must be something on 
the order
     of a 16 inch deck gun." - David Worrell

     "Naww, use a pellet gun.  Gives the god a sporting chance, 
though still
     not much of one..." - Dan Ceppa (elipses in original)

     "Since we've never actually *seen* a God, we must extrapolate 
the
     characteristics of these gods from the evidence available to 
us.  The
     Christians tell us that they want to be like God, but that God 
is much
     more powerful than they can ever hope to be.  Christians are 
boneheads.
     Thus, gods must have an *incredibly* thick skull, 
necessitating the
     powerful ordnance referred to above." - David Worrell




     "* SLMR 2.1a * If my life doesn't show Jesus,I'm not really 
alive!" -
      George Pope

     "While not usually one to dwell on taglines, I feel it 
necessary to point
     out that if you do indeed follow the precepts set forth in 
this one, then
     I conclude you are not really alive.

     Since you are deemed to be dead, I formally request that you 
stop posting;
     we have enough wasted bandwidth from live posters." - Kelsey 
Bjarnason




     "I do think for myself,[...]" - Kenneth Mcabee

     "That explains your 8,000 repetitions of your favorite Bible 
quote.  You
     are using a defective organ.  Try someone else's for a while - 
I'd
     suggest one from a species of a higher order, such as a slime 
mold." -
     Kelsey Bjarnason




     "Get thee behind me Satan." - Jerry Wilcox

     "Bend over." - Satan

     "Get thee behind me Satan." - JW

     "Getting just a little bit anxious, aren't we?" - Satan

     "Not at all. Remember, I have Jesus on my side and I fear 
nothing." - JW

     "One sidesaddle and one behind! The man is a walking 
clusterfuck!" - Don
     Martin

     "Wow!  What Jesus should do is get in FRONT ...  then they can 
make a
     little train - Jesus, then Jerry, then Satan, all linked.   
Perhaps they
     could add in their god and the archangel Michael,  too,  one 
at either
     end." - Sue Armstrong




     "How many times must you be told.  If someone was resurected 
they cannot
     be dead anymore.  Therefore there will not be any evidence of 
their
     existance.  They would be alive!" - Jerry Wilcox

     "Are you alive, Jerry? If you are, there would, by your 
logic<tm>, be no
     evidence of your existence. 'Bye, now." - Don Martin




     "I want to know why that murdering SOB that you worship 
starves innocents
     to death." - Martin Goldberg

     "Because these so called innocents do not believe in God, or, 
know about
     God in any way." - Jerry Wilcox




     "Why? Because you're just basically stupid. You're faith" - 
Bill 'banned'
     Wolff

     "I'm faith?  No, I'm Kelsey, and he's David.  You said 
something about
     being stupid?" - Kelsey Bjarnason




     "WHERE IS THE BODY,HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM?" - 
Mike Rooney

     "By the looks of this line above, sounds like you're eating 
it."     -
     Robert Jackson




     "I take it you've never heard of having your penis pierced, 
then?" -
     David Worrell

     "Hell! I was three blocks away and I heard it." - J.J. Hitt




     "Atheists choose to be atheists." - Jesse Jones

     "I seem to have no choice in the matter -- lacking evidence, I 
find it
     impossible to believe in gods existing outside the 
imagination, just as I
     find it impossible to believe that Mickey Mouse can emerge 
from the TV
     and do me bodily harm." - "Hector Plasmic"




     "No he is not dead! Jesus died for us on Calvery!" - Jerry 
Willcox

     "Jesus being the Son of God died not God.  However being that 
God and the
     Son and the Holy Spirit are one in the same, you might say God 
did die
     but because he is omnipotent he lived while he died!" - Jerry 
Wilcox, in
     the same message




     "To the eight who insulted me today.  Bow, wow!  Snarl!  Pant! 
 Pant!" -
     Clayton Davis

     "Were you humping a table leg while you typed that?" - J.J. Hitt




     "I've *never* seen a camel at a salad bar." - David Roosterman

     "Count yourself among the lucky.  They've got terrible table 
manners.
     (Lousy conversationalists, too.)" - J.J. Hitt

     "So, J.j., what's the difference between them and fundys?" - 
Dan Ceppa

     "If you ask a camel a question it doesn't understand, it will 
at least
     say  something original like "ahrrrrooooghunnn" or 
"yhaaaarrwwwaaarrrrkh"
     (which very well mean something in Arabic).  Our 
modemvangelists will
     reply with John 3:16." - JJH




     "Would you kill your son if God commanded it?" - David Worrell

     "Yes I would believe with Abraham, who was over 100 and only 
had one son
     and was told by God that his descendants would be as numerous 
as the
     sands of the sea shore, That God would raise Him up or use the 
situation
     for His honor and Glory." - Gary Hull




     "In a Religion conference, you all think homosexual propaganda 
is about
     to shock us who are replicas of Jesus, our Lord?" -  Clayton 
Davis

     "`Replicas of Jesus`?!  You think highly of yourself, don't 
you?" - David
     Johnston




     "Well, I guess we have a fundamentally different outlook...it 
strikes me
     that a belief in ANY kind of "god", some powerful, "magic", 
creator
     being, is more reasonable than matter spontaneously coming 
into existence
     out of nothing..." - Mickey Haist Sr.

     "Nope; they're absolutely identical, as long as you're 
limiting them to
     origins.

         "Where did matter come from?"
         "Oh, it just went *poof*"
         "Yeah, right."
         "Okay, where do you say it came from?"
         "God did it."
         "Oh, and where did God come from?"
         "Ummm... he just... um... went *poof*."
         "Uh huh."

     (The other alternative is to simply insist, with no logical 
basis, that
     God "jest is".  Fine.  Apply the same to the universe.  Guess 
what?
     Identical claims.  In any case, the result is the same: since 
we can at
     least tell the universe exists, adding deities doesn't amount 
to diddly.)

     Now, as soon as you add in the extra attributes of God, it 
moves from
     being equally ludicrous to far more so." - Kelsey Bjarnason




     "Parable of the New Soap.  Once upon a time in a far-away land 
far, far
     away, a young man named Joshua announced the discovery of a 
marvelous new
     kind of soap. People were skeptical at first, but they soon 
found that
     this new soap made everyone very happy because it got them so 
clean.
     Because it was so powerful, it got rid of dirt and stains that 
had been
     around for years.  In our parable, Joshua's soap is the Gospel 
of Jesus
     Christ." - Marguerite G. Kendall

     "It can't be; they're not comparable.  In the one case, there 
is a
     demonstrable positive effect of using the product [soap] - one 
gets clean
     and happy.  In the other case, [Jesus] there is a demonstrable 
*negative*
     *effect - one's brain goes to mush, and if seriously infected, 
one has a
     tendency to try to control society or kill people." - Kelsey 
Bjarnason




     "Democracy is impossible in the presence of even ONE Jesus 
worshipper!" -
     Sean McCullough [athist]

     "What the HELL is the matter with you?  Your starting to 
become jus tlike
     the christians are! Judgeing everybody else.Dammit you've 
really pissed
     me off.It's okay to take shots at their religion, but it's 
another thing
     to make character assesments and pass judgements on MILLIONS 
of people
     you've never met. [...] I'm disgusted with you." - Luke Clark 
[Pagan]




     "PRAISE GOD!! If he wasn't dead I would not be SAVED!" - Jerry 
Wilcox

     "Then, why bother worshipping a dead guy?" - Quentin Fai

     "Because God is not dead!" - Jerry Wilcox

     "Please make up your mind. Is your god dead or isn't it?" - 
David Rice

     "Perhaps he didn't beat it enough the first time?" - Dan Ceppa




     "I say that for all the kids that he allowed to die in Kansas 
City.  If
     he was any king of a god, he wouldn't have allowed that to 
happen, would
     he." - Dan Ceppa

     "If this country (particularly the powers that be) 
acknowledged Him as
     God, things like this wouldn't happen. Joshua 24:15" - Jim Staal

     "This country?????  Every single person????  If your gawd 
makes that a
     condition to disallow wholesale murdering of children, FUCK 
HIM." - Karl
     Schneider




     "A. The purpose of gun control is to keep weapons out of the 
hands of
     dangerous maniacs.  B. Currently, the most dangerous maniacs 
kill for
     religious reasons.  Thus-Religious people should not be 
allowed to own
     weapons.  Or buy fertilizer." - "Jon" (From Usenet)




     "Spanking does not harm a child!" - Jerry Wilcox

     "Jerry you are correct.  Prov 10:17 He is in the way of life 
that keepeth
     instruction: but he that refuseth reproof erreth.  Prov 15:5 A 
fool
     despiseth his father's instruction: but he that regardeth 
reproof is
     prudent.  Prov 15:31 The ear that heareth the reproof of life 
abideth
     among the wise.  Prov 17:10 A reproof entereth more into a 
wise man than
     an hundred stripes into a fool.  2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is 
given by
     inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for 
reproof, for
     correction, for instruction in righteousness: Prov 29:15 The 
rod and
     reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his 
mother to
     shame.  This one is last, it is also the best start for a 
person who
     feels spanking is wrong.  Last resort, I agree.  Out of place, 
better
     read again.  But I have found that those that critisize the 
Bible are
     those that have never read one." - Robert Benson




     "If I had to describe my way in a few words, I would say 
"luciferanian"."
     - Thomas Vogt

     "I'd have to say you're a teeny-bopper without a clue trying to
     masquerade as a rebel without a cause in search of a religion 
to play
     with." - "Hector Plasmic"




     "Or if the Honourable Speaker were to actually use that mace 
.. :)" - Sue
     Armstrong

     "Trouble is, those 'Reform'ers are probably packing 9mm 
handguns loaded
     with unjacketed ammunition." - Coridon Henshaw

     "But are they smart enough to figure out which end to point at 
the
     target?" - Jason Nishiyama




     "Not at all.  Creationism has never been wrong." - Unknown

     "Why don't you just hang a sign around your neck that says 
`STUPID'?" -
     Styx Allum




     "How does it feel to be a Coward for Christ?" - David Worrell

     "If I was a coward, why would I be in this echo?" - Kenneth 
Mcabee

     "Your presence in this echo is not a matter of cowardice or 
courage - it
     has more to do with your lack of intelligence." - David Worrell




     "Good news: it's "KILL JIM STAAL FOR JESUS" Week here at 
HolySmoke!" -
     David Rice

     "I understand one can blow his brains out and he wouldn't 
mind.  Or even
     notice." - Don Martin




     "What is firmament?" - J.J Hitt

     "FUCK OFF YOU INCONSIDERATE PIECE OF SHIT...YOUR DAY OF 
JUDGEMENT WILL
     COME FOR YOU!!!!!!" - Steven Ricketts




     "Seeing God's will done on earth as it is in heaven is more 
important
     than my own happiness." - Jesse "Lock me up quick!" Jones

     "Many of your fellow xtians have thought that through the 
centuries. Many
     thought it was more important than anyone else's happiness, 
too. In fact,
     many of them thought it was more important that someone else's 
life, and
     therefore happily killed folks to see to it that "God's will" 
got done.
     Nice to see you're carrying on in such a glorious tradition." 
- "Hector
     Plasmic"




     "Ahhhh, I recognize this.  This is the way my ex would talk 
before he
     beat me for being "too smart"." - Gwen Todd

     "Sounds like he was the smart one. Wha'd you follow that act 
with?  I
     don't know. I wasn't there. There ain't a story that donesn't 
hve two
     sides to it. Either way, the fact that he is her ex, makes him 
the smart
     one..." - Jim Staal




     "Times change, Jim. It's all fine and well to be faithful now, 
but do you
     know exactly why you are faithful? Do you know why God lets 
innocent
     children be blown to bits by madmen? Do you not question why 
an allegedly
     omnibenevolent god would permit such evil to exist?" - Preston 
Simpson

     "Perhaps to help Janet Reno have some sleepless nights to 
demonstrate to
     her the evilness of her decision of two years ago? That is not 
my answer,
     but it is my thought on the OK city retribution act." - Jim 
Staal




     "God Dan" - Dan "Gnome" Ceppa

     "The Lord rebuke you." - Jim Staal

     "AIIIIIEEEE!  Now he's REBUKEING us!  Oh Woe!  Oh Doom!  
Oh.... fuck you
     too." - J.J. Hitt




     "I want him [god] do undo the mess in OKC.  Bet he is unable." 
- Martin
     Goldberg

     "Quite able, but not willing." - Michael Hardy




     "WE AS CHRISTIANS HAVE GOTTEN AWAY FROM THE BASIC TRUTH OF 
CHRIST AND
     HAVE DEVELOPED OUR OWN THINKING." - Unknown

     "Great Scott!  Some people are thinking for themselves.  Where 
could such
     heretical behavior lead!" - Unknown

     "Dancing!" - Unknown

     (From Usenet)




     "BZZT!  You claimed to HAVE the information.  Did the dog eat 
it?" - Karl
     Schneider

     "Trent [Hall] stole it and put it in his shoebox.  Yeah, then 
he gave it
     to Billy [Wolff] who lost it in his pile of creationist 
pamphlets.  Sure,
     then Mikey [Hardey] found it and reinterpreted it into 
"evidence" but
     refuses to show it to anyone.  Yeah, that's the ticket." - 
Hector Plasmic




     "But the Holy Spirit is a person....in the Godhead." - Unknown

     "Is the "Godhead" where gods go to the bathroom?" - J.J. Hitt

     "Quick, Jesus -- to the Godcave!" - Hector Plasmic




     "Benevolence is a straw man, and these asteroids of yours are 
totally
     theoretical." - Jesse Hornbacher

     "Really?  You really have lived a sheltered life, haven't you? 
 Maybe you
     ought to take a trip to Arizona (that's in the Southwestern 
U.S.  in case
     you don't know) and jump into Meteor Crater and bump your 
"theoretical
     head".  Ever look at the moon?  Wonder where those craters 
came from?  Or
     do you think the moon really is made out of cheese?  Swiss at 
that?" -
     Carl Wilson




     "Sorry, I must have misunderstood your question.  I believe 
that the Holy
     Spirit caused one of Mary's eggs to become a fetus without 
sperm." -
     Steve Bedard

     "In vertebrates, the phenomena of parthenogenesis (look it up) 
is well
     documented in the classes Pisces, Amphibia and Reptilia, but 
not in Aves
     nor Mammalia.  Therefore, we are forced to conclude that ol' 
Jesus must
     have been either a land shark or the original lounge lizard." 
- Marty
     Leipzig




     "Methinks they protest too much!  If God doesn't exist, why 
pay any
     attention to the activities of Christians?" - Frank Mcfatridge

     "Because if you don't, one of their number might just stick a 
12 gauge in
     your ear and pull the trigger." - Marty Leipzig




     "Most believers know the Bible was  written by humans.  The 
"issue" is
     whether or not the human authors accurately described events 
such as the
     parting of the sea." - John Prewitt

     "Okay.  Then how did humans describe events such as the 
creation, which
     happened before there were any humans to witness them?  So 
much for that
     hypothesis." - Kelsey Bjarnason




     "Do you really expect me to believe that if God came down and 
killed your
     child that you wouldn't be in the least bit upset?" - David 
Worrell

     "Why should I be? Thier all going to heaven." - Kenneth Mcabee




     "I watched my daddy farm." - Hampie Mcdonald

     "Fancy that...  Old Mcdonald had a farm." - J.J. Hitt

[Some months later]

     "Ahhh... I'm see FAQ fragements again... only to find out that I
      have become obsolete." - J.J. Hitt




     "Besides, if I was caught in a boat with Don [Ward], I'd jump 
overboard."
     - Kevin Mckenzie

     "That's where you and I are different - I'd throw Don 
overboard." - David
     Worrell

     "When you get to be my age, you learn patience. I would not jump
     overboard. I would not throw him overboard. In such a 
situation, with
     only two guys, one boat, and the sea stretching for miles, I 
stand an
     excellent chance of getting hungry later on." - Don Martin




     "This is not comprehenable to man's brain." - Alan Kern

     "So which is it, Alan?  You don't comprehend it or you don't 
have a man's
     brain?" - "Hector Plasmic"




     "So, "God" talks to you?" - Kevin Mckenzie

     "Sure! Doesn't he talk to everybody?" - Tenna Draper




     "I agree it was not written for our level of technology.  Yet 
fundies, in
     spite of this, still insist on a literal interpretation." - 
Bruce Riley

     "Yet Daniel told of aircraft, wireless radio, headlights on 
cars. Modern
     technology. Naahhh." - Titus Ashbury




     "We are _all_ worthy of death." - Tenna Draper

     "*You* might be.  Kindly leave the rest of us out of your 
delusions." -
     David Worrell




     "Tuck your telephone wire up your arse, Doug, and upload your 
nine posts
     where they will do the most good." - Don Martin

     "I can always tell when I've hit the nail on the head: folks 
start
     squawking.  Thanks for confirming that the message got out." - 
Doug Snead

     "You take a studied, vulgar insult of your behavior as a 
"squawk"? You
     ARE a mindless little pustule, aren't you?" - DM

     "BTW.  Are you saved?" - DS

     "I am afraid I do not share your hallucinations regarding 
imaginary
     superfriends. Corroborate your biblical ravings with some 
verifiable
     evidence, and I might consider signing up. But not until." - DM




     "May the Lord Jesus Christ soften your heart, Mr Martin." - 
Doug Snead

     "He seems to have done a very good job of softening your 
brain." - J.J.

     Hitt




     "It is stupid little gooks that bother me.  Go stick it up 
your yellow
     ass." - Matt Giwer

     "I always suspected that Mr. Giwer was a complete and total 
gerbil
     smuggling sheep humper, and now you've provided me with concrete
     evidence.  It's losers like that who give the rest of us 
godless heathens
     a bad name." - Quentin Fai




     "JESUS died for His people." - Douglas Duke

     "Jesus didn't die, remember?  Don't you Christers believe he 
still
     lives?" - David Worrell




     "The scientific evidence is at the end.  Read the whole 
posting, it
     flows." - Andew Conner

     "Another characteristic it shares with diarrhoea." - Don Martin




     "So, why do the paramedics take a pulse? Why don't they just 
thump the
     patient on the head?" - Don Ward

     "Because, in your case, it could possibly damage their hands." 
- Dan
     Ceppa




     "Oxygen is technically a poison, and is one of the causes of 
our eventual
     death.  Would you appreciate it if I tried to stop you from 
breathing to
     prevent the damage to your body that oxygen causes?" - David 
Worrell

     "Once again, a terrible analogy.  I shouldn't even bother 
answering it,
     but I might as well say something.  First of all we need 
oxygen to
     survive.  I don't have to have sex with a male or female in 
order to
     survive." - Ralph Jansen

     "Irrelevant.  Your whole argument against homosexuality rests 
on the fact
     that it damages bodily tissues.  Oxygen does the same thing.  
However,
     since you don't like the oxygen angle, try certain harmful 
food groups.
     Do you believe that fried foods should be outlawed since they 
damage our
     bodies?  Yes, I know, we do need to eat to survive, but it 
doesn't have
     to be fried chicken.  Are you going to support the campaign to 
outlaw
     Kentucky Fried Chicken restaurant?" - DW




     "What happens when that big fusion bomb fails to emit light 
and heat." -
     Andrew "Head-crash" Conner

     "We freeze to death.  Got any more silly questions?" - David 
Worrell

     "Evidence of DE-EVOLUTION" - AC




     "Satan is clever" - Don Ward

     "And, of course, you don't want to be anything like satan.
     Congratulations, you've succeeded." - Hector Plasmic




     "Perhaps  we could use him [Jim Staal] as a buoy in the middle 
of the
     shipping channel." - Dan Ceppa

     "I don't think so.  Can you imagine the time it would take to 
get
     anything done in a harbor if one of the bouys was constantly
     proselytizing every ship that passed by?" - David Worrell

     "ROTFL! `I baptize you the USS Fundy!  Now, be fruitful and 
deliver those
     bananas.'" - Dan Ceppa




     "The USA could kick Canada's butt with 99% of our military 
tied behind
     our back... thanks to our technological and military 
knowledge." - Andrew
     Cummins

     "Wow, how patriotic of you.  Patriotism is one thing, Andy...but
     ignorance of the world is the one disease you seem to suffer 
from most.
     Why would you be proud of the fact that we can invade and take 
over
     Canada (this is doubtful I might add)?  Why would you be proud 
of the
     fact that we've invested so much money in bullets and far from 
enough in
     education?" - Ryan Shaw




     "I've already addressed this in one message to you, but to 
emphasize: I
     AM NOT A FUNDAMENTALIST.  Do NOT make assumptions about me 
thinking I
     am." - Michael Hardy

     "`Quack,' said a certain flight-capable aquatic fowl.  You 
persist in
     trying to include the unaffected in your beliefs.  If you have 
webbed
     feet, quack and waddle like a duck, chances are, you are, 
indeed, a
     duck." - Fredric Rice
     [OBSOLETE]



     "(Here, sheep, sheep, sheep.... Here, sheep, sheep, 
sheep.....)" -
     Quentin Fai

     "Try your local church." - Drew Webber




     "The main thrust of the cross is that JESUS was placed upon a 
pole, just
     as Moses lifted up the serpent on a pole in the OT." - Douglas 
Duke

     "And when the Pope lifts his staff, we have the spectacle of 
Jesus on a
     pole on a Pole." - Don Martin




     "Christians have a right and a duty to eradicate all false 
religions from
     the face of the earth.  If possible this should be done 
through bringing
     the lost to Jesus.  If that doesn't work then these false 
relions should
     be destroyed by any means necessary." - "Trent Dented"

     "Dear Trent...  You aint dented, yer fucking wrapped around a 
goddam
     tree.  Do any of these "false religions" that you have marked 
for
     destruction claim to be Christian?  If so, please tell me how 
you tell
     the "true" Christians from the "false" Christians?  Are you 
out to
     destroy all Catholics or all Protestants?  And what about the 
Christian
     Scientists, Jehovas Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists 
and the
     Salvation Army?  You gonna destroy all them too?  They _ALL_ 
beleive in
     Jesus, even if they disagree with the mainstream on some 
points.  How
     many Jews are you going to destroy?  (The current high score is
     six-million some odd.  That's going to be mighty hard to 
beat.)" - J.J.
     Hitt




     "Atheist ethics are so much hot air." - John Prewett

     "While Christian ethics carry hot lead with them?" - George 
Rudzinski
     [OBSOLETE]



     "Christianity would be amusing, if it hadn't killed millions 
throughout
     history." - Unknown

     "Christianity never killed anybody or anything.  Angry, 
frightened people
     killed other people while hiding behind the name." - Charlie 
Cowan

     "Hmm.  By the same reasoning, Naziism never killed anybody.  
The problem
     with such reasoning is that it completely ignores the reality 
that many
     dogmas include an incitement to killing.  Take a gander at the 
Old
     Testament, for example: it is loaded with rampant killing, 
generally for
     no more reason than that the victims dared to think for 
themselves." -
     Kelsey Bjarnason




     "Maybe you should ask MISTER Ceppa. He'll probably try and 
convince you
     that is really Dave Oosterman." - Jim Staal

     "Between you and Oosterman, you don't have enough balls to 
make a pawn
     sign symbol." - Dan Ceppa




     "Believe me, I *KNOW* the human side of *frustration*!!!" - 
Niki Zanzo

     "Have you considered hiring a hooker?" - "Captain Fuck"




     "I didn't think that curse words and sacrigious messages 
belonged on this
     conference." - Margureet Kendall

     "You have provided ample evidence of your incapacity to think 
in the
     past, so why should the present be any different?" - Don Martin
     [OBSOLETE]



     "Gravity to you is Satan holding you back from the salvation 
of Jesus
     Christ." - Don Ward

     "What have you been smoking and what was it laced with?" - 
Preston
     Simpson

     "Second hand smoke laced with the spirit of GOD" - Don Ward




     "Gay people are worshipers of SATIN" - Don Ward

     "No sheet?" -J.J. Hitt




     "One day not to far away I am afaid to say that it will 
actually be
     against the law to speak of Jesus in public," - Michell Miller

     Your paranoid delusions are amusingly ridiculous.  But if they 
make life
     a little sweeter for you, enjoy." - Robert Curry




     "American schools are falling FAR behind the rest of the 
world.  We are
     really becoming a joke, in so far as education goes.  This 
started when
     we took prayer and creation teaching out of public schools.  
Conclussion:
     We took God out of school, and the school system is falling 
apart." -
     Doug Brewer

     "Preposterous to the nth degree.  The Japanese have one of the 
most
     rigorous and hardest school systems in the world, churning out
     highly-educated people who, unlike many of their American 
counterparts,
     can read, write, and cipher by the time they graduate.  I am 
not aware of
     *any* Christian influence in *any* Japanese class, yet they 
consistently
     provide higher educational standards than we do.  Conclusion: 
Your
     conclusion is full of shit." - Preston Simpson




     "... God told me to set you on fire." - Dan Ceppa

     "Uh, I don't _think_ so.  God does not talk to evil pagans who 
do not
     believe He exists." - Jim Staal




     "What does John 3:16 mean to you." - Marguerite Kendall

     "It means it is time for John to get a new watch.  His current 
one is
     stuck." - Steve Rose
     [OBSOLETE]



     "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." - Bob Swell

     "Kill any innocent witches of late?" - Fredric Rice
     [OBSOLETE]



     "I didn't make this up, it says this in the Bible." - Chris 
Vetter

     "I see.  So you are simply allowing someone else to make it 
all up for
     you." - Steve Rose




     "Ah, the tired and disreputable old "He wasn't a *true* 
Christian"
     argument. Save it for someone who hasn't heard it." - Preston 
Simpson

     "Argumentum ad bozum non Christii." - Robert Jackson
     [OBSOLETE]



     "I guess you are also forgetting the practice of human 
sacrifice as
     described in the bible?" - Judith "Bandsaw" Bandsma

     "Shame on you Judith! You call yourself a Quaker! I smell a 
witch." - Jim
     Murray

     "Fee, fie, fo, fum, we all smell the stench of Christendom.  
Gonna start
     lighting bonfires, are you now?  It's quite typical of the 
ignorant to
     accuse those more learned than they of "witchcraft".  Your 
ancestors from
     Plymouth would be so thrilled that you are carrying on the 
family
     bigotry.  I suppose you still wear one of those pointy hats to 
hide your
     pointed head." - Dan Ceppa




     "Alcohol should still be illegal. I am sure that everyone is 
familiar
     with the harm that it does when used to excess. If everyone 
were capable
     of using it in moderation, I would see no problem with it, but 
you and I
     know that is not the case." -Dan Baldwin/Captain Fuck/Dr. 
James Robertson

     "So your answer is punish everybody because a minority of 
idiots lack
     self-control and good judgement? Gee, then I guess we should 
ban the use
     of automobiles, firearms, cutlery, and baseball bats.  Your 
inability to
     reason astounds me. And I've met my share of unreasonable 
people." -
     Garrett Banse
     [OBSOLETE]



     "As marijuana does not produce food, it was not put here for our
     benefit." - Dan Baldwin/Captain Fuck/Dr. James Robertson

     "Do you have even the most remote evidence to support this 
stupid idea?
     We cannot eat air, gasoline, cotton, glass, etc. either, so by 
your
     statement I guess we should all run around naked until we 
suffocate,
     huh?" - John Hewett




     "I hope Staal and Oosterman are covering their ears.  Or 
should I tell
     them you're in desperate need of counseling?" - Unknown

     "Counseling? Counseling for what?" - Jim Staal/Dave Oosterman

     "A split personality.  Thing is, between the 2 of you, you 
don't have
     one." - Dan Ceppa




     "More unsubstantiated rubbish. Can't you think for yourself?" 
- Preston
     Simpson

     "Sorry I don't need too, I have God to think for me." - 
Kenneth Mcabee




     "[however,  even in the OT,  God reasoned with God's people," 
- John
     Prewitt

     "and anyone who was not "God's people" were wiped off the face 
of the
     planet if they got in the way." - David Worrell

     "So,... once the word gets around,  smart people don't get in 
the way." -

     John Prewett

     "Ahhh.. I see.  God's a *bully*.  It's so much clearer now.  
You have
     reaffirmed the claim made by many of us heathens that your God 
rules
     through intimidation and fear." - David Worrell




     "Stop the car or you're going to drive off a cliff!" That's 
what the
     warning of "hell" is Stephen, a warning -- not a threat." - 
Michael Hardy

     "Ahh, but God put us in the car, cut the brake lines, and 
aimed the car
     at a cliff." - David Worrell

     "Then hid all evidence that the cliff exists, made sure that all
     'warnings' were irrational, illogical, and patently absurd, 
and then
     selected only drooling lunatics as its spokespeople.  Guite 
obviously,
     this god of theirs is more fucked up than they are." - David 
Rice




     "Now, the sun-worshippers noticed that at certain points in 
time, the sun
     grew smaller, then stopped, then grew larger." - Leon Brooks

     "It doesn't.  It doesn't even APPEAR to change in size." - 
J.J. Hitt

     "Perhaps you haven't been staring at it for long enough." - 
Leon Brooks
     [OBSOLETE]




     "Ask your local public librarian about other scriptures, Jim." 
- Robert
     Curry

     "There are no other scriptures, Robert..." - Jim Staal




     "You guess wrong.  The Hindus, the Zoroastrians, and the 
Buddhists are
     just three other religious groups that had religious 
scriptures before
     your Christian religion even began writing its own." - Robert 
Curry

     "Ha-ha! Where _do_ you get this irresponsible information?  
Nothing could
     be farther from the truth. Nothing predates Genesis 1:1...'in 
the
     beginning...'." - Jim Staal




     "That's it, blow job.  "IS NOT!!!!!"   You are a liar" - Drew 
Webber

     "AM NOT!!!" - Jim Staal

     "<snicker> Scream it a little louder for those in back." - 
Preston
     Simpson




     "Greg, you old papsmear, long time no see. I have been 
awaiting with
     bated revulsion your detailed account of the number of changes 
that have
     taken place in Carbon dating over the past 30 years, with some 
attention
     paid to whether or not these were refinements in technique. So 
far, it
     has yet to appear. Do you need a repost of the original to 
know precisely
     what claim it was of yours that I was seeking additional 
information on?
     Just say the word!" - Don Martin

     "Just think about it... why else woulf they number the types 
of carbon
     dating?" - Gregg Waggy

     "<ROTFLMAO!!!!> Do you mean like Carbon-14 or Carbon-12?  
Dumbass, that
     number refers to the isotope of carbon that is being used.  
You can do
     better than this - how many times has carbon dating changed in 
the last
     30 years?" - David Worrell




     "But why do many theists have compassion for a nearly 
brainless fetus,
     when they have little or no compassion for other fully 
functioning
     individuals?" - Rob Burcham

     "They feel a certain kinship with the fetus, maybe?  <g>" - 
David Worrell




     "Do you think Jesus is proud of your feeble attempt at an 
insult?" -
     David Worrell

     Ah! So you do believe in Jesus. That's a good start! Now you 
need to love
     him and accept him as your Lord and Savior. Then you'll be 
fine. Trust in
     the Lord and all will be well." - Scott Brubaker

Misc. 
Resources


TOP TEN QUESTIONS THAT THE BIBLE CAN NOT ANSWER:

10   How many legs does a grasshopper have?
 9   What is the ratio between a circle's diameter and it's 
circumference pi)?
 8   What is a "firmament"?
 7   Who recorded the events in the Garden of Gethsemane if all of 
the eye
     witnesses were asleep?
 6   What tree grew in the middle of the Garden of Eden?
 5   Is a bat a bird?
 4   What does "Selah" mean?
 3   How did Judas die?
 2   How long was the Ark afloat?
 1   Why did Jesus hate dogs?
[From J.J. Hitt]



C. J. Henshaw        1:259/724 & 1:250/820          
cjh@tcsconcordia.tor250.org
Coridon Henshaw      1:259/724 & 1:250/820         
csbh@tcsconcordia.tor250.org


                                   -666-

